Why should DOA5 NOT have a 6-Point Hold system?

[Chris Harris]

DOA can absolutely have a universal hold system, it just needs to be toned down in its frequency of appearance so holds can actually mean something. If you gave the hold's properties to any other move, you'd consider it broken. The only reason people are so accepting of the hold in its current state is because you've just had to deal with it for so long and gotten used to it. In reality, the hold, in its current form, is a disease holding back DOA from growing and the series will continue to suffer until Team Ninja properly addresses it. DOA5 has taken a few steps to address it but really they're just band-aids on a wound that needs amputating. See what you can salvage, cut out the rest and wait a while during the recovery period.

You don't need to get rid of the hold to make it mean something. The reason people use it as a crutch is because it's a good option that gets you out the fire and there's no real risk in using it(in the past). There needs to be a very strong option for the person on the offensive that says "Well you could hold, but by blowing that card and being wrong you will most certainly lose 50-75%". The easiest way to fix the hold is by nerfing damage further and nerfing recovery on the hold further. So now you can still use it JUST as much as you want but it wields such a consequence for whiffing it or guessing wrong that it's not even a logical choice.

At that point it would be the same tool it has always been but you wouldn't be able to do it blindly.

The disease holding DoA back is the community. The reason many of us want to move on from the casual crowd of DoA is because they had their chance to travel and support the game. DoA 4 as bad as it was if half the casuals would have traveled it would at least have a scene of it's players who so called "LOVED" the game. However the only people showing up were the very ones who are requesting change in the game but we're supposed to listen to the people who didn't show up for w/e reason when they loved DoA 4? Show up for 5 and there MIGHT be a 6 because 5 in it's current form is at the least playable and hopefully it continues to get better.

What we don't need is people jumping the gun because they "think" the game will be an instant success once holds are removed from stun 2 months before the game comes out. The game doing well starts with the community and people who want to give it a chance. If you aren't going to give it a chance then there is no reason to further involve yourself with those that are (a very general statement).

 

[grap3fruitman]

Wow, way to completely misinterpret my post and put words in my mouth. I'll address your statement once I get off work.

 

[UncleKitchener]

DOA++ had an interesting hold system, but I don't think people here in UK like the current DOA hold system even if it's 4-points.

 

[Berzerk!]

Thank you for your summary of the feelings of every player from the UK.

I'm sure the reality is more that DOA has been off the radar for SO long that people will be coming to it as if a new game and will look at the hold system as a new mechanic to learn.

With longer recovery plus CB and unholdable stuns, there is now an immediate answer to the question of "are holds too easy"... no, they aren't because you can do XYZ about them.

There's also the inclusion of the VF characters giving the VF scene a strong incentive to try this game.

Let's neither count, nor kill, this chicken before its hatched.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Hey, I'm part of a big scene here. I've shown the games to people and talked to many of them.

Now maybe some don't necessarily know that you can throw an opponent during defensive holds or slow escape, but when I explain it to them and tell them about the new mechanics like CBs, they keep telling me the game is a poor man's VF and casual.

I'm not trying to be a dick head, I'm just telling you that I've tried. Don't go thinking the scene is full of ignorant players, it's just that there's not much interest. 2Ds generate more interest.

 

[grap3fruitman]

You don't need to get rid of the hold to make it mean something.

When I said "DOA can absolutely have a universal hold system" it clearly meant "get rid of the holds."

The reason people use it as a crutch is because it's a good option that gets you out the fire and there's no real risk in using it(in the past).

Which is why I said... "it just needs to be toned down in its frequency of appearance."

The disease holding DoA back is the community.

The community is absolutely holding DOA back, no question, but you can't build a healthy community around a flawed game.

What we don't need is people jumping the gun because they "think" the game will be an instant success once holds are removed from stun 2 months before the game comes out.

Please point out where I said ANYTHING to this effect in the quoted text or, for that matter, anywhere on this forum. I'll save you the trouble because I've never said anything like this. You must be browsing the Twilight Zone version of FSD.

Even if they made all the suggestions I or anyone else have and DOA5 became the most solid fighter ever to exist it would still have an uphill battle. Not because of mechanics but because of perception. DOA has never been taken seriously by the larger fighting game community. But if DOA5 was this amazing, solid fighting game and we could have regular turn-outs with good numbers then DOA's perception could change and then our scene could grow and become healthy.

However, like I said, you can't build a healthy community around a flawed game and DOA4 is your proof. If anything, it created the most toxic community in existence. Being a solid fighter doesn't guarantee success either, case in point: Virtua Fighter. What an amazing game but it has both the exact opposite and same problem as DOA: it's perceived as being too technical to get into. There's the issue again, perception.

The game doing well starts with the community and people who want to give it a chance. If you aren't going to give it a chance then there is no reason to further involve yourself with those that are (a very general statement).

I would love to give DOA5 a chance but it's hard to give Team Ninja the benefit of the doubt when they're clearly ignoring the issues and when questioned they "don't think they were issues." You have people telling you what's wrong and how to fix it and you ignore it? Then you deserve to fail. Case in point: Ninja Gaiden 3.

I'm just as sick of writing terrible things about DOA as you all are of reading them. I didn't start podcasting about DOA because I hate the game, I didn't spent countless hours typing up frame data for the wiki because I hate DOA, I didn't spend the last two years making over 1200 posts on here because I hate DOA. But how am I supposed to change Team Ninja's "we don't think these are issues" attitude without constantly pointing out said issues and coming off as negative?

 

[Chris Harris]

Okay Grap3 here's your problem,

- You never traveled for DoA4 and supported that game when you THOUGHT you liked it
However you had people that disliked the game and traveled for it. Traveled to it's 30 man majors while you claimed to like the game

What does that have to do with DoA5? You claim you don't want to support a game you don't like when you didn't support a game you did like. Congratz bro

- They have addressed the holds frequency just not as much as we wanted. You speak as if there aren't any changes to the game what so ever.
1. Can't hold in sit down stun
2. Can't hold in limbo stun
3. Can't hold in CB (granted you need to reach threshold)
4. Can't hold off the wall anymore
5. Recovery for the hold has been increased by quite a bit (again not as much as we want but it's good they increased it)
6. Hold damage nerfed significantly

That's 6 points just from me LOOKING AT THE GAME, I haven't even got to play it yet. So how are YOU the guy who didn't travel or play the game going to tell ANYONE that the game will be played at any level? We really have no idea and we will continue to have no idea until we all get the game and we are able to break it down and actually play it.

You can play theory tournament scene all you want but in the end you have no idea. This is why it's up to the community to support THEIR game, you are like one of the FEW who think the game is unplayable and the others who think it is unplayable cast their vote when they saw "New Dead or Alive game coming in late fall". However there are many other people who are excited to play the game and give it a shot. We don't need someone who didn't travel or play the bad games telling people this game is bad when they haven't even had hands on time with it. Not to mention that person wouldn't know a good fighting game tool if it punched him in the face.

So once again I'll say, if you hate the game that much and it's destined to fail. Just leave you won't be missed as you were already a minor point in the community anyway because you didn't play or travel when times were tough.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

The community is absolutely holding DOA back, no question, but you can't build a healthy community around a flawed game.

What exactly would you know about "building a healthy community" or a games' flaws without someone telling you? Have you ever played MK9 or MvC3? Do you even play any other games to warrant your opinions or what YOU THINK are facts about other communities? MK9 and MvC3 are both VERY flawed games, yet have a big community and huge support.

You haven't even played DOA5 yet, (along with most of the people on here) so how would you know anything about how the hold system works? A little bit of more recovery has been added to holds. Though it is a very very small change, it still made a world of difference. For people who choose to counter out of every stun, they now risk being punished with something like, lets say, a launch. Countering is not the best option out of stuns anymore. They put themselves at a legit risk now. (Instead of countering and 1.5 seconds later, you still can counter someone, like how it was in DOA4.) Even when you successfully counter an attack now, it's not even that much damage anymore. High risk/low reward. Also you got uncounterable stuns. This should prove to you that the issues with DOA are not being ignored. Do I still think Holds can be nerfed even further and given even more recovery? Yes I do.

How about you try to save your comments about the game, tournaments, and community until you actually play the game and travel for the game and put the dedication that some of us has put in. Then again, even after you get your hands on the game, you wouldn't even know how to play it properly or muster up a decent opinion on the game.

 

[DrDogg]

You haven't even played DOA5 yet, (along with most of the people on here) so how would you know anything about how the hold system works? A little bit of more recovery has been added to holds. Though it is a very very small change, it still made a world of difference. For people who choose to counter out of every stun, they now risk being punished with something like, lets say, a launch. Countering is not the best option out of stuns anymore. They put themselves at a legit risk now. (Instead of countering and 1.5 seconds later, you still can counter someone, like how it was in DOA4.) Even when you successfully counter an attack now, it's not even that much damage anymore. High risk/low reward.

I don't really agree with this. According to grap, the entire length of a counter is 30 frames. You won't even be able to react for at least 15 frames. There's no way you're hitting a launcher in that time frame. At best, you'll be going for a launcher and the opponent counters at the wrong height.

Also, at 30 frames, the opponent can recovery and counter again at almost the same pace of DOA4. In DOA4 the high/mid counter was a total of 30 frames and the low counter was 27. It's not that different, especially in stun.

And while countering inflicts less damage, it's still enough damage to matter. You can't get countered 5 times and still expect to win the round. I just don't think counters have been nerfed all that much. We have better tools to get around them, and I'm okay with how things are at the moment, but I don't think it's as picture perfect as you're making it out to be.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

I don't really agree with this. According to grap, the entire length of a counter is 30 frames. You won't even be able to react for at least 15 frames. There's no way you're hitting a launcher in that time frame. At best, you'll be going for a launcher and the opponent counters at the wrong height.

Also, at 30 frames, the opponent can recovery and counter again at almost the same pace of DOA4. In DOA4 the high/mid counter was a total of 30 frames and the low counter was 27. It's not that different, especially in stun.

And while countering inflicts less damage, it's still enough damage to matter. You can't get countered 5 times and still expect to win the round. I just don't think counters have been nerfed all that much. We have better tools to get around them, and I'm okay with how things are at the moment, but I don't think it's as picture perfect as you're making it out to be.

When I was playing at E3, when someone countered out of stun, I was able to launch them every time when I was REALLY looking for it. Not saying you could react to a whiffed counter anything other than out of stun. I think that small change makes a difference. Like I said, it can afford to have more recovery, which would be better. I don't think the counter nerfs are picture perfect either and they SHOULD nerf them more, it's just not AS MUCH of a threat anymore.

 

[DrDogg]

When I was playing at E3, when someone countered out of stun, I was able to launch them every time when I was REALLY looking for it.

It should've been the same in DOA4 though. The recovery is longer, but the full counter animation is virtually unchanged.

 

[BlackxxxMamba]

It should've been the same in DOA4 though. The recovery is longer, but the full counter animation is virtually unchanged.

Idk man, in DOA4, that counter window really stuck out there for a long ass time. I didn't get that feeling in DOA5.

 

[DrDogg]

Idk man, in DOA4, that counter window really stuck out there for a long ass time. I didn't get that feeling in DOA5.

According to grap's numbers, the active window of the counter dropped by 5 frames, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the full animation, because that's what matters when we're talking about your ability to launch punish. In DOA4 it was 27-30 frames depending on which counter was used. In DOA5 it's 30 frames.

 

[Chris Harris]

Launch punishing is a plus to me. If you are looking for someone to hold you can easily buffer your launcher and if nothing happens just continue pressure.

The big thing you can do since the hold has more recovery is literally just wait now. When the hold recovered so fast you were forced to preemptively do a throw/attack. From playing the Alpha build and even just watching videos I could put you in a stun and do a quick move that holds you in stun or wait and see before continuing.

The big thing you can't do anymore is hold and do a crush because even though you may not be able to react and punish the hold you are still in a great advantageous situation for yourself. All of this is just from what I saw and played within the alpha build though but I played a LOT of DoA4 and if the hold was the way it was in 5 we wouldn't be able to low hold > crush all day which was a strong tactic.

 

[DrDogg]

Launch punishing is a plus to me. If you are looking for someone to hold you can easily buffer your launcher and if nothing happens just continue pressure.

The big thing you can do since the hold has more recovery is literally just wait now. When the hold recovered so fast you were forced to preemptively do a throw/attack. From playing the Alpha build and even just watching videos I could put you in a stun and do a quick move that holds you in stun or wait and see before continuing.

The big thing you can't do anymore is hold and do a crush because even though you may not be able to react and punish the hold you are still in a great advantageous situation for yourself. All of this is just from what I saw and played within the alpha build though but I played a LOT of DoA4 and if the hold was the way it was in 5 we wouldn't be able to low hold > crush all day which was a strong tactic.

According to grap, the recovery has changed from the Alpha to whatever build he's pulling from.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I am really upset about the recovery loss ...

They really need to bring it back to alpha standards ...
When you guys play that tournament in the next few weeks please highlight that directly to the team ...
Having the recovery back to alpha status is just so much healthier for the game ...
Its too bad I'm in the UK .. The developers haven't even shown themselves once here ...

 

[BlackOrochi]

I'd take a 500-man tournament with 10 quality players over a 20-man tournament will 20 quality players. Numbers are important, especially these day where your game doesn't hardly get streamed unless you bring the numbers. And if the numbers don't come, you don't make it to Evo and majors quickly start dropping your game.

The head count.

Head count.

OK. So what's your strategy?

Even when you successfully counter an attack now, it's not even that much damage anymore. High risk/low reward.

Holds = High risk and Low reward... smh... I can't believe that situation actually sits well with certain DOA players...Some of you want to nerf Holds, so bad, to the point where there'll be literally NO POINT in performing Holds at all. Would anyone here invest money or time in a venture that offers High Risks and Low Rewards? I wouldn't. Turning Holds into a fool's investment is simply ridiculous, a.k.a. the brain-death of the Hold system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is THAT what you want? For Holds to be so weak and risky that they become an unsound decision?

I understand that 3-pt Holds were frowned upon by certain players for being Low Risk/High Reward. But asking TN to do the exact opposite (High Risk/Low Reward) isn't reasonable either.
For Holds to make sense, and therefore justify their existence, they either have to be High Risk/High Reward, or Low Risk/Low Reward. Basta. Because that High Risk/Low Reward thing will eventually lead to the Hold system's euthanasia. #PullThePlugOnThatBitch

 

[Matt Ponton]

OK. So what's your strategy?

I promote the hell out of the events as I've always done.
I show up.
Other people who care about the game and its life show up.
We kick ass.
We take names.
We have some beers.
And do it all over again.

The bigger question is, what's your strategy?

 

[virtuaPAI]

Hold's need to be mid risk, mid reward. The only major problem with them were the frequency of it's use(because you were forced to with Doa4's stun system). With all the changes made, holds will no longer be the gorrilla in the room.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I am really upset about the recovery loss ...

They really need to bring it back to alpha standards ...
When you guys play that tournament in the next few weeks please highlight that directly to the team ...
Having the recovery back to alpha status is just so much healthier for the game ...
Its too bad I'm in the UK .. The developers haven't even shown themselves once here ...

Was the recovery time in the Alpha version that different? Could you elaborate on how it would effect the game that much? Because i think guaranteed combos are more important.