Why should DOA5 NOT have a 6-Point Hold system?

[Chris Harris]

For what the hold does I have been a fan of holds being like -25/-35 because they do much more than what they "want" it to be.

I just know the chances of that happening are super slim so I try to think positive lolz

 

[RhythmikDesigns]

Couldn't they add an option where you could select between 4-point or 6-point, being that its just directional inputs? If this was implemented, it could possibly fracture the player base, but it would allow those who just play casual to still have fun, but also gives something extra to the competitive players.

 

[DrDogg]

Couldn't they add an option where you could select between 4-point or 6-point, being that its just directional inputs? If this was implemented, it could possibly fracture the player base, but it would allow those who just play casual to still have fun, but also gives something extra to the competitive players.

The problem with giving us an option is that you need as many casuals as possible to head out to tournaments. If tournaments run with a 6-point counter, that's going to make a lot of casuals who may have been interested in traveling, suddenly uninterested.

 

[RhythmikDesigns]

The problem with giving us an option is that you need as many casuals as possible to head out to tournaments. If tournaments run with a 6-point counter, that's going to make a lot of casuals who may have been interested in traveling, suddenly uninterested.

True

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

At neutral, I would agree. In stun, there was no difference to me.

I'll explain to you how it made a big difference in stun.

Granted, the opponent can still throw out their hold at the earliest point in stun... but this is wasn't the issue I had with them before. The issue was that they would do it and the recovery frames were so short that my follow up would not connect as they would be out of critical stun, and at so many points they could even spam the hold 2-3 times in a row between my attacks, the first would get them out of stun and the next would be a hold from neutral dealing more damage and having longer active frames... that was the bullshit that was DOA4 in my eyes. I didn't like the whole "If you throw enough shit on the wall its bound to stick sometime" mentality.

DOA5a fixed this entirely with the long recovery to holds. This not only allowed juggles not previously possible as the critical stun would add up with the hold recovery, but also made it far more practical to go for critical threshold. In fact, if the opponent held in stun you can screw them over so bad in the alpha demo it wasn't even funny, and deservingly so! They shouldn't be able to spam rapid holds at 500 mph like they were able to in DOA4...

I'm OK with the whole strike-hold-strike-hold scenario as long as the holds have a long enough recovery to guarantee my follow up within the combo, be it a well timed slow start up move or a late fast move...there's a good healthy mind game in that .. especially with the newly introduced guaranteed scenarios.
What I'm NOT OK with is strike- hold to get out of stun - hold you're fucked or just start over with a new critical stun chain scenario. That defeats the whole point of offense .. and that was the biggest problem DOA4 had to begin with!

I know you know all this already. I am just explaining it to the people that are reading and don't get it.

Reducing recovery to holds is the biggest disaster that can happen to this game, especially after all the great lengths put into making it what it is.

 

[BlackOrochi]

The problem with giving us an option is that you need as many casuals as possible to head out to tournaments. If tournaments run with a 6-point counter, that's going to make a lot of casuals who may have been interested in traveling, suddenly uninterested.

I'm all for having more casual players hit the competitive scene. But at the end of the day, what is more important to tournaments? Is it the head count? Or the quality of players? I believe that 6-pt Holds may deter casuals from entering tournaments only if we assume that casuals cannot learn the 6-pt system. I think that casual CAN learn the 6-pt system... they just have to try it out and practice, just like I tried out the 4-pt system. But then again, I may be placing too much faith in casual players...

I don't know... What if TN made a clear distinctions between Hold systems in the options, for instance:

HOLD OPTIONS:

• 3-pt (EASY)
• 4-pt (MEDIUM)
• 6-pt (TOURNAMENT)

It would send a clear message to casuals by letting them know that players who want to enter tournament level play must master TOURNAMENT level Holds (kinda like defeating a game at maximum difficulty). IMO, Casuals should of course be welcomed in tournaments, but you also want them to be good too, am I right?...Or else it wouldn't be interesting for you guys...
I'm just spit-ballin' here...

 

[virtuaPAI]

6 point wont change much at all. Jabs are a prominent form of attack, that would need 1point hold. Mid attacks are big for launchers, and is the main form of attacks, that would need 2point hold. The best form of low attacks are those that sweep/trip, whick are low kicks. That would need 1 point hold. At the end of the day, you are still using a 4 point system. The other two points would rarely be used, and are not worth the effort.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I haven't really joined in on the 6 point conversation because I think it's a bit of an overkill.

4 points is very decent and works well especially for a game that is heavily oriented towards more mid attacks than anything else.

3 point worked in DOA3 because the system allowed it to work. There were a lot of scenarios for guaranteed damage that created a nice balance.

Now DOA5 has the guaranteed stuff from DOA3 and pushes it a step further with burst and sit downs. Having it 4 point also caters to the offense. I think it is fine the way it is. You don't want to make the game TOO dry.

The issue of recovery frames is a much bigger deal at this point and I think it needs to be addressed. 3 point worked in the alpha demo hugely due to that one specific thing, which was longer hold recovery. If you reduce it, it wont matter if it were 3 point , 4 point or 500 point. It would just turn the game to shit since you can't fricken stun anyone long enough for a decent combo.

 

[Jefffcore]

Not true. It would matter heavily ...
If you have low recovery, what would prevent me form intentionally spamming the hold after i get hit just to reduce my stun state, NOT to counter you but in fact to get myself out of stun?! This completely abolishes the threat and throws your CB out the window. in fact, with a low recovery you might even be able to do one hold to take you out of stun, then you get a longer acting "NORMAL out of stun" hold, with longer active frames even, to screw whatever follow up you may want to do. That screams DOA4 more than all the shit that anyone has argued about before.

If you're stunned and just hold to escape a stun, any attack that hits you will put you in Critical. If it's a sitdown, you're immediately in a situation that you can't hold. It doesn't matter how the hold works at all in that situation.

Unless it WAS 0 and you could do it twice in a row. Other than that it's not.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I agree with the recovery. attacks and throws have huge recovery when you whiff, why not holds? And, it should be a counter hit when an attack connect with a hold.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

If you're stunned and just hold to escape a stun, any attack that hits you will put you in Critical. If it's a sitdown, you're immediately in a situation that you can't hold. It doesn't matter how the hold works at all in that situation.

Arent those poke attacks always critical stuns anyways?

 

[Jefffcore]

What poke attacks?

 

[Doug Nguyen]

What poke attacks?

Im just reading your first comment saying "If you're stunned and just hold to escape a stun, any attack that hits you will put you in Critical" What im saying is arent all those stuns called critical sutns and i consider those light attacks that extend the critical attack, "poke" attacks since they arent really hard hitting that it would knock you over.

 

[Berzerk!]

This is a non-topic. They heard this feedback already and determined 4 point was the best balance of accessibility and decision making. The merit of having an extra point (but not more) for the standard holds for mid kick is because the majority of the attacks are mid, making 3 point too simple an option, covering too many bases.
6 point is a logical extension of that argument but comes against the barrier of accessibility.
Either way, Team Ninja have made their decision and this actually the 7th point hold - a MOOT POINT.

 

[DrDogg]

I'll explain to you how it made a big difference in stun.

Granted, the opponent can still throw out their hold at the earliest point in stun... but this is wasn't the issue I had with them before. The issue was that they would do it and the recovery frames were so short that my follow up would not connect as they would be out of critical stun, and at so many points they could even spam the hold 2-3 times in a row between my attacks, the first would get them out of stun and the next would be a hold from neutral dealing more damage and having longer active frames... that was the bullshit that was DOA4 in my eyes. I didn't like the whole "If you throw enough shit on the wall its bound to stick sometime" mentality.

This is where we differ. That was not my primary issue with DOA4. It was that you'd put the opponent in a stun, then they'd counter, then you'd hit them again, and they'd counter again immediately, rinse and repeat. That still happens in DOA5. The changes to the counterhold haven't impacted the ability to do that. They can't counter 2-3 times between attacks, but I never had that issue in DOA4.

I'm all for having more casual players hit the competitive scene. But at the end of the day, what is more important to tournaments? Is it the head count? Or the quality of players?

I'd take a 500-man tournament with 10 quality players over a 20-man tournament will 20 quality players. Numbers are important, especially these day where your game doesn't hardly get streamed unless you bring the numbers. And if the numbers don't come, you don't make it to Evo and majors quickly start dropping your game.

 

[Codemaster92163]

I think 4 point makes perfect sense. Pardon my possible ignorance to previous posts as I've not yet read (and will likely never read) the previous posts, but here are my two cents.

When my friends asked me why 4 point made sense, I told them all to look at their DOA fighting statistics. All of them had around the same statistics for attacks. While Highs made up about 20-30% of their attacks, lows constituted for about 15-25%, normally close to a 30/20 split for highs and lows respectively. Then, viewing their mid strikes, they had, around average, 50% of their lifetime attacks as mids. I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but not only did I expect it at first, but the 6 people who viewed their stats all had similar data to show.

Basically, my point is this: If mids count for around 50% of a players arsenal and highs/lows counting for about 25% each, it makes sense for mid holds to be slightly tricker to get off (aka, cut it in half by giving it both a punch/kick option) or else those would be the only things people would spam (since statistically, it's their best option to stop a combo).

In fact, that's what the randoms on Dimensions normally reverted to - mid counter spam.

Agree or disagree, I don't really mind, but to me, the 4 point counter system makes the most amount of sense. I'm not saying a 6 point wouldn't be good, but I think 4 point makes the most sense.

 

[Jefffcore]

Im just reading your first comment saying "If you're stunned and just hold to escape a stun, any attack that hits you will put you in Critical" What im saying is arent all those stuns called critical sutns and i consider those light attacks that extend the critical attack, "poke" attacks since they arent really hard hitting that it would knock you over.

Everything puts you in Critical if you're hit while holding.

 

[DrDogg]

Everything puts you in Critical if you're hit while holding.

Except for the attacks that launch or knock down.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Everything puts you in Critical if you're hit while holding.

Arent most attacks in DOA critical stuns anyways? And arent all stuns considered critical stuns. Because when i stun people in DOA4 it always says critical stun not just stun, not matter if they counter or not.

 

[Jefffcore]

On CH, yes. I'm saying if you're put in stun and someone holds to escape the stun you're just going back in stun. If that attack is a sitdown you're just put in an unholdable state, If it's a launch, you're in the air, etc.

Unless the recovery was reduced to something drastic like 0, and you had an opportunity to recover before the attackers second attack, it wouldn't really matter how the hold worked if it whiffed.