Why should DOA5 NOT have a 6-Point Hold system?

[Doug Nguyen]

On CH, yes. I'm saying if you're put in stun and someone holds to escape the stun you're just going back in stun. If that attack is a sitdown you're just put in an unholdable state, If it's a launch, you're in the air, etc.

Unless the recovery was reduced to something drastic like 0, and you had an opportunity to recover before the attackers second attack, it wouldn't really matter how the hold worked if it whiffed.

Ok i think were just using our terms differently but were thinking of the same thing. I just call all stuns critical stun since i read it that way during fights on the screen, when it pops up. You probably call it Critical hit then your stunned. I just call it all critical stun.

 

[Jefffcore]

Nah, we're talking about the same thing.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

This is where we differ. That was not my primary issue with DOA4. It was that you'd put the opponent in a stun, then they'd counter, then you'd hit them again, and they'd counter again immediately, rinse and repeat. That still happens in DOA5. The changes to the counterhold haven't impacted the ability to do that. They can't counter 2-3 times between attacks, but I never had that issue in DOA4.

I mentioned that this was our point of difference in opinion. But hear me out here...

It does happen in 5 yes... BUT, your offensive potential is MUCH higher with longer recovery, you have far more options and far more time to deal with it, and most importantly the opponent Remains in "critical"! That, and the fact that you have more guaranteed options now ... both of these things compliment each other. However, the longer recovery to holds is the more apparent boost to the offensive system, as it is what will happen a lot more often regardless of the presence of sitdowns or bursts.

Take that recovery away, and you are back to the hold mash of DOA4 that gets you out of every problem, and that makes everything... and I mean everything.. SHIT.

The amount of frames this happened in the alpha demo (and I assume in the E3 build) was just perfect! So why take that away now ?!

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Is it most likely possible that you could low counter the first hit of a jab string that goes high/high/mid and still block the third mid attack? If that's the case then recovery needs to be longer to allow strings to continue and avoid stun resets.

 

[Allan Paris]

Is it most likely possible that you could low counter the first hit of a jab string that goes high/high/mid and still block the third mid attack?

No.


On NH that is natural combo, so, you either hold mid, keep blocking, or get hit by it doing anything else. On CH, the recovery is longer on the hold because of the stun. So you'd have to commit to holding mid if you think it's coming, if not you will get hit by it.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Suprised Team Ninja would mess with the recovery frames again. Even though I didn't play the alpha demo very much they still felt good. The answer to balancing holds is in the recovery I feel. Hope there is a chance they change it back.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

I understand why people want the recovery for counters to be fixed but i thought once you hit them, it just resets and the opponent can just hold again. So how does recovery matter really?

 

[qoodname]

I actually like that you can hold during stun since we have tools to prevent the enemy from holding aswell. I mean you still have to think about your next move even if the enemy is stunned as long as you didnt get him to sit down. Otherwise we would just see the same combos all over again as soon as the enemy is stunned. They should make holds less spammable though. I just hope TN dont forget that holds are a defensive tool. The reward for holding should be that you save your ass from taking more damage and not that you actually dish out damage.

 

[Allan Paris]

I understand why people want the recovery for counters to be fixed but i thought once you hit them, it just resets and the opponent can just hold again. So how does recovery matter really?

If you understand why people want the recovery on holds to be fixed. Then you should understand how the recovery matters. Unless I am not interpreting what you are trying to ask correctly?

 

[Blazeincarnated]

I think I see Team Ninja's view very clearly. The Holds will BE heavy because THAT is the greatest aspect of the game. You remove holds in stun the game will get boring pretty quick. And of course you don't want your opponent to predict you, thats why you MUST have a mix-up game. If your too straight forward just wanting to do a same combo. People will have more of a reason to not like the game... Case in point, people criticize the fan-service and thats fine, but I never really hear them criticize the gameplay (other than some of you guys). Do you hardcores feel like you lose a lot? No offense whats so ever.. (Even though I lose a lot, I never want them to change something that doesnt need to be changed...unless I feel it is absolutely broken which at this point, its not. Me and my friend spent days on in playing the demo like it was the full game lol... JUST like the MK9 demo... my two cents)
Fighting Entertainment FTW!!!

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

I think I see Team Ninja's view very clearly. The Holds will BE heavy because THAT is the greatest aspect of the game. You remove holds in stun the game will get boring pretty quick. And of course you don't want your opponent to predict you, thats why you MUST have a mix-up game. If your too straight forward just wanting to do a same combo. People will have more of a reason to not like the game... Case in point, people criticize the fan-service and thats fine, but I never really hear them criticize the gameplay (other than some of you guys). Do you hardcores feel like you lose a lot? No offense whats so ever.. (Even though I lose a lot, I never want them to change something that doesnt need to be changed...unless I feel it is absolutely broken which at this point, its not. Me and my friend spent days on in playing the demo like it was the full game lol... JUST like the MK9 demo... my two cents)
Fighting Entertainment FTW!!!

The whole FGC and the competitive DOA players criticize the gameplay all the time. You see the same combos all-the-time right now in DOA4, it wouldn't be any different than it is now. I'm not sure if you're getting that this site is for people who want DOA to be tournament viable and want it to have BIG turnouts and be at EVO with a shit ton of people and have it be streamed and loved. Holds should not be heavy whatsoever, holding should be an educated guess, not randomly throwing out a counter and hoping it will work. If holds were like Guard Impacts in Soul Calibur 4...omg, punish the *beep* out of people and people would not spam holds not even NEARLY as often.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I understand why people want the recovery for counters to be fixed but i thought once you hit them, it just resets and the opponent can just hold again. So how does recovery matter really?

I don't think you understand... You say you do but your following sentence contradicts it.

I'll try and explain: the number of dashes indicates time ... (without any specific frames just to make it easy)

Lets say a STUN is ---------- (10)
Lets say a NEW HOLD is ----- (5)
Lets say ALPHA DEMO HOLD IS ---------- (10)

You need to understand that regardless of hold active frames and recovery .. the hold animation counts as an extension of the critical state in stun.

Now, lets say you got hit ... and you're stunned ... and you attempt a hold at the 2nd dash:
With this new system that we are worried about and in DOA4 it would look like this.
--/----- (7) : meaning you now decreased your duration of stun from 10 to 7 despite making a wrong guess. and if a move were to connect in stun normally (lets say a (9) dash move ) it would not work anymore. not only that, you as the defender are considered out of stun now and you have 2 dashes to react with another hold OUTSIDE OF STUN.

If you do not know already a hold OUTSIIDE OF STUN deals more damage and is active for a long time. As a defender you already made a wrong guess, you should NOT be given an advantage like that by being able to hold again out of stun but you should be punished for the wrong call you made when getting hit.

Now lets see that same scenario with the alpha demo:
--/---------- (12) << This is the length of your stunned state as a punishment of your wrong hold guess. and this not only allows that (9) dash move to connect, but even a (10) or (11) or (12) dash move. This creates a much more fair punish and a much more creative mind game and gives alot more options to the attacker AS IT SHOULD BE. It also gives you the ability to connect throws that have a longer start up than normal.

Yes, the situation will reset again once you get hit again. But, if you make the mistake again, you are screwing yourself AGAIN.

Another thing to consider is this:
Lets say that (9) dash move was a launcher attack that only works in stun or counter hit:
- With the new numbering and the DOA4 scenario: that move would not launch but cause a stun and force you to work all over again as an attacker.
- With the ALPHA demo settings: that (9) dash move would connect and LAUNCH.

You see the huge difference here ?
basically, shorter holds reset the situation every time and make the offensive pattern redundant and stupid. And shorter recovery gives the defender a far bigger advantage than he would deserve as they would be able to hold out of stun or simply just block and reset everything.

I hope this makes things clear.

 

[Allan Paris]

wow

Good lord, there was a way easier way explaining that. I am pretty sure he won't understand none of that.

I understand why people want the recovery for counters to be fixed but i thought once you hit them, it just resets and the opponent can just hold again. So how does recovery matter really?

Look, shorter recovery on holds (in short) means that it becomes spammable. Like in Doa4 mid and high holds recovered in i8 and low holds recovered in i5. If you are not waiting for a hold it's ridiculous to react to, more so the low hold. In most cases you could low hold and you would recover faster than the attacker and can possibly punish them for putting you at a disadvantage.That is a problem that must and needs to be fixed, which for the most part it is. Pertaining to the active window and the recovery. How the hold can still be applied doesn't sit well with a few.

That could be a recurring problem in DOA5 since the hold recovery has been reduced from what it was. In stun we need to know what the recovery is, I am pretty sure the recovery is much longer. Exact numbers would be great right now, though. Out of stun is looking a little suspect. I say "a little" because it is was reduced from 17 so why the change? Taking the recovery back to 17 would be nice.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I'm all for having more casual players hit the competitive scene. But at the end of the day, what is more important to tournaments? Is it the head count? Or the quality of players?

The head count.

 

[Rikuto]

Head count.

 

[DrDogg]

It does happen in 5 yes... BUT, your offensive potential is MUCH higher with longer recovery, you have far more options and far more time to deal with it, and most importantly the opponent Remains in "critical"! That, and the fact that you have more guaranteed options now ... both of these things compliment each other. However, the longer recovery to holds is the more apparent boost to the offensive system, as it is what will happen a lot more often regardless of the presence of sitdowns or bursts.

I don't really think the longer recovery changes anything while the opponent is stunned. Again, so long as I have time to hit my sit-down stun or CB before they recover from the counter.

You have more time to react to the counter. This is true, but doesn't impact anything. I already know what I want to hit the opponent with as soon as I land a stun. I also know if I'm going to try to bait out a counter and punish. Usually, if I want to go for a combo, I don't have time to delay/free-cancel, wait for a counter, then continue my combo if I don't see the counter. Slow escape alone negates the ability to do that, not to mention most stuns don't last long enough to do that even without an opponent countering.

So if I'm trying to bait a counter, that's usually where my combo stops if the opponent doesn't counter. If they do counter, then I was expecting it anyway and would've had time to punish even with the shorter recovery. That's why I say it doesn't really have an impact during stun.

No.


On NH that is natural combo, so, you either hold mid, keep blocking, or get hit by it doing anything else. On CH, the recovery is longer on the hold because of the stun. So you'd have to commit to holding mid if you think it's coming, if not you will get hit by it.

Not with every character. Helena's PP in DOA4 was not a natural combo.

I actually like that you can hold during stun since we have tools to prevent the enemy from holding aswell. I mean you still have to think about your next move even if the enemy is stunned as long as you didnt get him to sit down. Otherwise we would just see the same combos all over again as soon as the enemy is stunned. They should make holds less spammable though. I just hope TN dont forget that holds are a defensive tool. The reward for holding should be that you save your ass from taking more damage and not that you actually dish out damage.

High-level play in any fighting game is repetitive. Even in DOA that is unavoidable. You'll get a limited variety once an opponent is stunned, and that ends as soon as a sit-down stun, CB or launcher occurs. Why does it matter if 2-3 attacks are varied?

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I don't really think the longer recovery changes anything while the opponent is stunned. Again, so long as I have time to hit my sit-down stun or CB before they recover from the counter.

You have more time to react to the counter. This is true, but doesn't impact anything. I already know what I want to hit the opponent with as soon as I land a stun. I also know if I'm going to try to bait out a counter and punish. Usually, if I want to go for a combo, I don't have time to delay/free-cancel, wait for a counter, then continue my combo if I don't see the counter. Slow escape alone negates the ability to do that, not to mention most stuns don't last long enough to do that even without an opponent countering.

So if I'm trying to bait a counter, that's usually where my combo stops if the opponent doesn't counter. If they do counter, then I was expecting it anyway and would've had time to punish even with the shorter recovery. That's why I say it doesn't really have an impact during stun.

Please don't take this personally Dogg. I am not trying to attack you with what I'm about to say.

The game does not revolve around sit down stuns and burst. In fact, if you keep going for the same scenario over and over you will be destroyed in no time, even by an average player that can notice a pattern let alone a high level player.

I understand where you're coming from in a sense that you will mostly attempt to go for the guaranteed damage setup over the non-guaranteed but this is where you are limiting yourself in terms of how the game works.

Having short recovery IN STUN destroys offense more than anything. One of the core elements of attacking in DOA is changing it up all the time. If you repeat the same thing every time it just wont work, sit down or no sit down.

Now in the scenario you put you're saying if you're going to wait for a counter the opponent will get out of stun anyway through slow escaping. Yes, this is true. But you are forgetting major tools in the game which are free canceling and string delay, which you mentioned that you "do not have time for". Those two elements are the core of the offense in DOA. I never said stop and wait, or don't press buttons like you're suggesting. I am saying that with "free cancel and a wrong hold with a long recovery" you can chain moves that would not normally chain because the given stun (without holding) is not long enough.This opens up a huge can of offensive worms.

When you look at how MASTER plays, I recall Rikuto calling it "calculated randomness" or something down the line of those words. He is NOT being random. he is screwing with your defense so that if you attempt a hold expecting something in particular, you will get hit with something completely different. And in many instances he would go for a move that is actually slow and catch the hold recovery. He never stops pressing buttons. This was something that WAS possible in previous DOAs yes, but nowhere to the degree of DOA5 alpha demo. DOA5 so far pushed that possibility much further and gave a much bigger edge to the attacker for that one simple reason, long hold recovery. It made the offensive potential far greater than it ever was.

In fact, I think the term "PLAYING DOA5" should mainly revolve on that particular method of play before thinking of implementing burst even, especially since not all characters will have the luxury of getting it so frequently it seems. Burst moves and moves that cause sit down are slow, and if the holds recover too fast then You can kiss all your setups good bye. However, with increased recovery you can actually mix it up between other attacks and use string delay and free canceling and get to that sit down or burst in a far more guaranteed manner. That's not playing DOA4 or DOA5 .. that's playing DOA in general!

These things are also in VF and also play a major role in the offense. String delay baits out so many things and guard canceling changes your attacks from linear to circular or from high to mid or from high to low .. etc. none of it is guaranteed unless the opponent was in a crumple stun or launched. And even in VF the offense is just a series of 50/50s until you get that guaranteed punish.

In DOA, these things play the same important role but AFTER STUNNING the opponent as that's where the mix up starts. If holds recovered too fast then the 50/50s become shit and you don't get that reward that you would get from a correct mixup if the holds recovered slower. This is what I'm trying to get at.

Hold recovery IN STUN is FAR more important and can change the whole flow of the game if it were reduced. And from the vibe I'm getting from Rikuto's previous posts, he seems to agree on this as well.

I think this might be why you struggle so much with the game competitively. Its not that you don't know how to play and its not like you don't know the ins and outs of the characters and their gimmicks, its that you don't try and direct the mind game with these valuable tools that you have. You need wash out that Tekken mentality because it just doesn't work that simply in DOA.

(for the record people I am not trying to disrespect or discredit DrDogg or Tekken.. so lets not go there please)

 

[Jefffcore]

It's a means of guaranteed damage that isn't random; it's not a huge guess. Why wouldn't you want to set yourself up for that?

The only true 50/50 in VF is when you have +6 or -6 and even then the player with positive still isn't at as much risk as the player with negative, if any.

 

[Rikuto]

Please don't take this personally Dogg. I am not trying to attack you with what I'm about to say.

The game does not revolve around sit down stuns and burst. In fact, if you keep going for the same scenario over and over you will be destroyed in no time, even by an average player that can notice a pattern let alone a high level player.

I understand where you're coming from in a sense that you will mostly attempt to go for the guaranteed damage setup over the non-guaranteed but this is where you are limiting yourself in terms of how the game works.

Having short recovery IN STUN destroys offense more than anything. One of the core elements of attacking in DOA is changing it up all the time. If you repeat the same thing every time it just wont work, sit down or no sit down.

Now in the scenario you put you're saying if you're going to wait for a counter the opponent will get out of stun anyway through slow escaping. Yes, this is true. But you are forgetting major tools in the game which are free canceling and string delay, which you mentioned that you "do not have time for". Those two elements are the core of the offense in DOA. I never said stop and wait, or don't press buttons like you're suggesting. I am saying that with "free cancel and a wrong hold with a long recovery" you can chain moves that would not normally chain because the given stun (without holding) is not long enough.This opens up a huge can of offensive worms.

When you look at how MASTER plays, I recall Rikuto calling it "calculated randomness" or something down the line of those words. He is NOT being random. he is screwing with your defense so that if you attempt a hold expecting something in particular, you will get hit with something completely different. And in many instances he would go for a move that is actually slow and catch the hold recovery. He never stops pressing buttons. This was something that WAS possible in previous DOAs yes, but nowhere to the degree of DOA5 alpha demo. DOA5 so far pushed that possibility much further and gave a much bigger edge to the attacker for that one simple reason, long hold recovery. It made the offensive potential far greater than it ever was.

In fact, I think the term "PLAYING DOA5" should mainly revolve on that particular method of play before thinking of implementing burst even, especially since not all characters will have the luxury of getting it so frequently it seems. Burst moves and moves that cause sit down are slow, and if the holds recover too fast then You can kiss all your setups good bye. However, with increased recovery you can actually mix it up between other attacks and use string delay and free canceling and get to that sit down or burst in a far more guaranteed manner. That's not playing DOA4 or DOA5 .. that's playing DOA in general!

These things are also in VF and also play a major role in the offense. String delay baits out so many things and guard canceling changes your attacks from linear to circular or from high to mid or from high to low .. etc. none of it is guaranteed unless the opponent was in a crumple stun or launched. And even in VF the offense is just a series of 50/50s until you get that guaranteed punish.

In DOA, these things play the same important role but AFTER STUNNING the opponent as that's where the mix up starts. If holds recovered too fast then the 50/50s become shit and you don't get that reward that you would get from a correct mixup if the holds recovered slower. This is what I'm trying to get at.

Hold recovery IN STUN is FAR more important and can change the whole flow of the game if it were reduced. And from the vibe I'm getting from Rikuto's previous posts, he seems to agree on this as well.

I think this might be why you struggle so much with the game competitively. Its not that you don't know how to play and its not like you don't know the ins and outs of the characters and their gimmicks, its that you don't try and direct the mind game with these valuable tools that you have. You need wash out that Tekken mentality because it just doesn't work that simply in DOA.

(for the record people I am not trying to disrespect or discredit DrDogg or Tekken.. so lets not go there please)

Actually the game DOES revolve around sit downs and burst. If you think it's any other way you are in for a rude awakening, and damn I wish you were local so I could make some money out of that incredible error.

You'll get more damage guaranteed from a sitdown stun into burst combo then you will from a high counter throw... which is exactly how it should be.

but I'm still in favor of adding recovery to holds because it helps to nerf them and they need to be nerfed. nerfed nerfed and nerfed some more. Tool of the scrub and thats all its good for.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Actually the game DOES revolve around sit downs and burst. If you think it's any other way you are in for a rude awakening, and damn I wish you were local so I could make some money out of that incredible error.

You'll get more damage guaranteed from a sitdown stun into burst combo then you will from a high counter throw... which is exactly how it should be.

but I'm still in favor of adding recovery to holds because it helps to nerf them and they need to be nerfed. nerfed nerfed and nerfed some more. Tool of the scrub and thats all its good for.

Like I said before, Sit downs and burst might not be tools that everyone has the luxury of pulling off consistently.
Take Leifang for example, Her sit down comes after a second hit of a 2 hit string, unlike say Bayman who has a direct mid kick into the gut. You simply cant say those two scenarios are the same.

As for burst, this also revolves around how easy it is for a given character to reach threshold. This differs greatly and we can actually see it in the later vids of lighter characters.

It may be that characters will have different means for their guaranteed damage, some rely on natural combos, some limbos, some sitdowns, some back turns some maybe easier launchers and better juggles.... I dont think Sitdown will be as integral, at least not for every character.

But I'm glad you're on the same page with regards to returning the recovery to holds, particularly in stun.