Marie Rose update will surely bring general changes

[Brute]

Are you familiar with even fighting Alphas?

I've fought hollow-ichigo way more than I'd honestly care to so yes, I'm a bit too familiar with fighting Alpha.

If you sucked with move execution it's more than likely you will screw the burst notation up a lot with rush or oboro. I mean, I do... most people do.

I lot of people don't like to "risk" slower throws becuase they think that someone will attack, counter-throw or exit their hold recovery before the throw connects. Thus, they don't attempt them very much. 236236T is a slow throw, and it's combined with a rather lengthy input so execution same does stack on top of the frames. But, those who but that irrational fear aside have no difficulty landing the throw as a HiC punish from a lvl 3 critical (myself included), that forces you to guess between one of three different CB hit levels, where she can take hefty damage REGARDLESS OF ENVIRONMENT.

she doesn't have the best offense in the game (anymore) and the worst defense possible.

What, and Leon has a better defense? With his 11 frame jab, lack of parries, same hit-level for 99% of everything and exceptionally minimalistic crushes?

All that's required to start an insane chain with Leon is getting the opponent in the air (which IS NOT hard)

You've GOT to be kidding. You've just GOT to be.

 

[Jaguar360]

Are you familiar with even fighting Alphas? If you sucked with move execution it's more than likely you will screw the burst notation up a lot with rush or oboro. I mean, I do... most people do. I think that burst she be nerfed back to normal as well, but like silver said... it's a 20 frame throw. And she doesn't have the best offense in the game (anymore) and the worst defense possible. All that's required to start an insane chain with Leon is getting the opponent in the air (which IS NOT hard).

Most people that play DOA5 on a regular basis have found a way out of it, whether it be a low attack or just a duck. Countering at the wrong time is the only way she can really get burst nowadays.

I agree with your comments about Alpha, but I strongly disagree about Leon. Unlike Alpha, Leon has a hard time getting in with his sluggish speed. His stuns are good, but all of them except for 8K are mids and only 2 of those mids (H+K and 3K) are mid kicks. He needs the power from his moves/air throw and his strong throws in order to remedy his struggles just as Alpha needs a strong offensive presence in order to remedy her lack of holds and wake-up kicks and her limited moveset.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

Thank you for further proving my point that you don't understand what I and others are talking about, lol.

And once again instead of helping me understand, you're resorting to ridiculing me. Expecting a games community to grow whilst maintaining an incredibly elitist attitude isn't helping your cause the slightest, but whatever. Moving on I guess.

 

[d3v]

I never claimed to know a lot about anything actually. All I stated is I've played other fighters and what you're asking isn't making much sense to me. You tried to clarify, I still didn't follow. So yes, I probably sound like I'm repeating myself ( not to mention confusing myself ) in an attempt to understand the logic of a " wake up kick is the most powerful thing in the game", and why it needs to be nerfed. So sorry for attempting to understand the logic behind what you were saying.

Because in any competitive fighting game, getting knocked down always puts the person on their back at a disadvantage. With how good wake up kicks are now, there are times where that isn't the case in DOA5U. It ends up being more or less a true momentum killer/reset situation.

Compare with SSFIV which subjects knocked down players to vortex, or Marvel where getting knocked down allows your opponent to set up unblockable situations (if not outright using OTG attacks to combo). In Guilty Gear, if I knock you down with Millia I can create a mixup situation where you're forced to block one way while I set up an attack that your block cannot defend against.

 

[SilverForte]

Also in 3d fighters, take a look at soulcalibur, if you get knocked down in that you gotta deal with low/mid mixups cause you can actually get hit when you're on the ground, that game doesn't have wakeup kicks either. Then there's tekken, where if you roll backwards you can actually get picked up again for a full juggle. I'd say the current wakeup game is closest to VF, except the wakeup kicks aren't super good there.

 

[ModusPwnins]

And once again instead of helping me understand, you're resorting to ridiculing me. Expecting a games community to grow whilst maintaining an incredibly elitist attitude isn't helping your cause the slightest, but whatever. Moving on I guess.

I'll weigh in as well I suppose.

In Tekken, the wake up game will vary depending on how the person is knocked down. Face down+head towards, face up+head towards, face down+head away, face up+head towards, etc.
Some of the knockdowns, I forget exactly which ones, do not allow you to tech or roll and force you to only stand straight up.
Not teching during a juggle will allow your opponent to reset the juggle and reset the combo scaling, this can be looped infinitely until death if you don't tech at all.
Teching during a juggle gives your opponent the option to setup a techtrap, this is usually an unblockable and on rare occasions a complete launch into a (on-axis/ off-axis) full juggle.
Another option with juggles is ending it pre-maturely to immediately setup something that will hit on either wake up or hit grounded for more damage than the standard finisher.
Not getting up immediately after any type of knockdown will allow your opponent to continue pressuring you with any attacks that hit grounded. Side rolling without actually getting back up can reduce these options.
Backrolling after knockdown will reduce the damage of ground hitting attacks, but runs the risk of someone attempting to catch you backrolling, and float you for a partial juggle.
Getting straight up (no teching, no rolling) too fast can result in getting floated into a juggle.
Mid-hitting wake up kicks are -15 (launch punishable) on block. Some of the low hitting wake up kicks will launch on either normal or counter hit, but run the risk of someone using a low crushing move to beat you out. Or they can low parry into a low parry juggle if they get a good read on you.
And then there are character specific wake up options, True Ogre can teleport and flying ram, Alisa can do this jetpack kicking deal, etc.

And that's about all I can remember atm. This of course doesn't include tag options which introduces a whole new element.

 

[grap3fruitman]

@TRI Mike Why are you still so hopeful?

 

[virtuaPAI]

Yes, they are punishable on block, you are at disadvantage while teching up anyway. But WUKs still have too much priority and range, and "no one" can hold a WUK on reaction "all the time". Honestly, most of the time WUKs are being held so well, the aggressor is just conditioning you to do one so they hold the expected WUK, it's not always something players are always doing on reaction.

Low WUKs are low throw punishable on block.

-You know what, I honestly disagree with this assessment, and I'm in more in agreement with FatalxInnocence. I do not see WUK's having too much priority and range in 5U. It is actually comparable to WUK's in the pre-DOA4 Era's...With players having relatively no problems with the standard WUK, and had to pay attention to side rolling WUK and delayed WUK's. Unlike DOA4, with there being only two, a player can just wait and hold, block, crush etc.

The main problem is that WUKs still have too much priority on them, so players back off so that they don't deal with the whole "I knocked you down but I have to fear a wake up kick and be wary of two hit levels and their range" bullshit".

-Lol. Like I said, this is not DOA4. The simplification of only having two hit levels is hardly an issue.

DOA5U's current ground game is terrible, everyone knows this and will agree that it sucks. It favors the player that was knocked down more than it does the aggressor. It needs to be redone. I say DOA5 vanilla's was solid, and that it should be brought back. It allowed the aggressor to keep their offensive momentum.

-This is not true at all. The aggressor is on top at all times in 5U. Many players are used to the universal FT's of DOA4 and DOA5, enjoying easy access of removing their opponents WUK option. This is not necessarily better, but a preference to those users. I happen to prefer the current set-up where players have to find character specific ground game set-ups and utilize them efficiently and effectively. It creates individuality, where DOA as a whole is too homogenized.

You're missing the point of what I and others have been pointing out for weeks/months now, lol. DOA is the only game where the defender's defense attack option is one of the most powerful in the game.

-This is being overstated. If you were to say Defensive Holds, than you will have something to truly argue about(Even though they are far better off now than previously).

WUKs stun on counter hit and have ridiculous range. Most back off because we know how ridiculous the WUK in DOA is. Yes, there are several ways to deal with/avoid them, but "this game's" pace has been slowed down a lot because the defender has invincibility frames when they are knocked onto the ground.

The ground game is more than often reset to neutral because those frames hardly allow you to keep up momentum well enough (outside of trying to hold a WUK, block one or back away).

-Come on, once again, it's "powers" are being overstated. This game's pacing is slightly slower than that of 3.1(2U), and it never stopped players from handling WUKs. Unlike the other top 3D Fighters, DOA players have universal defensive holds(DH) to deal with WUKs. These DH's deal far more damage than WUKs +Stun on counter strike! In fact, there are characters who Low/mid DH's deal significant amount of punishment, making WUKs risky and not worth the use....As well as those characters who have special uramawari techniques and attacks that outright beat out WUKs. From what I gather, some players just want the easy access to FT's and not wanting to deal with utilizing character specific wake up tech.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

I find it strange how everyone seemed to think that Leon was so amazing at launch, yet they now argue all of his glaring weakness. I realized from day one that the character was going to struggle in almost every MU.

- He has a hard time opening up anyone, being the second or third slowest character in the game. Simply blocking or alternating between your jab, fastest mid, and fastest low can do pretty well against him. You're almost guaranteed to beat what he does. Just don't block too much or he'll get to throw you.
- He has virtually no lows (his fastest being i16, which is just terrible, even Tengu's was faster and led to a second hit that stunned). 1P tracks and crushes, but is very slow. 2H+K is a good mixup option, but doesn't crush and is extremely slow.
- Almost all of his attacks are mid punches, which makes random guesswork decently effective against him, though he can use this to his advantage to bait holds for a HiC Desert Falcon.
- Most of his damage comes from throwing holds or from air throwing people into the environment, which is essentially only possible if your opponent makes a mistake considering that his best launchers are WR K (i12, but easily avoided due to being a high) and 214P (yet another mid punch and easily reacted to due to being i18; slower than Tengu's three best launchers).
- He's a grappler, but his throws are all pretty slow for some reason. I think their frame data should be reverted to their DOAD counterparts, minus his neutral throw. So 6T would be i6 (quick, ideal punishment on most whiff/blocks, especially in water), 4T would be i8, Dervish Throw would be i8 (pretty reasonable, I think, considering that his opponent gets three chances to break it), and Desert Falcon being i11.
- In addition to them being very slow, almost all of his moves can be punished on whiff or block by i12 throws.

I'm no expert, so feel free to counter this, but I don't think he'll end up on the good side of very many MUs as the meta progresses. Leon's not terrible and does have really high damage output and is very fun to play, but as far as I can tell, he only wins if his opponent fucks up. If he beats you, blame yourself.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

I find it strange how everyone seemed to think that Leon was so amazing at launch, yet they now argue all of his glaring weakness. I realized from day one that the character was going to struggle in almost every MU.

- He has a hard time opening up anyone, being the second or third slowest character in the game. Simply blocking or alternating between your jab, fastest mid, and fastest low can do pretty well against him. You're almost guaranteed to beat what he does. Just don't block too much or he'll get to throw you.
- He has virtually no lows (his fastest being i16, which is just terrible, even Tengu's was faster and led to a second hit that stunned). 1P tracks and crushes, but is very slow. 2H+K is a good mixup option, but doesn't crush and is extremely slow.
- Almost all of his attacks are mid punches, which makes random guesswork decently effective against him, though he can use this to his advantage to bait holds for a HiC Desert Falcon.
- Most of his damage comes from throwing holds or from air throwing people into the environment, which is essentially only possible if your opponent makes a mistake considering that his best launchers are WR K (i12, but easily avoided due to being a high) and 214P (yet another mid punch and easily reacted to due to being i18; slower than Tengu's three best launchers).
- He's a grappler, but his throws are all pretty slow for some reason. I think their frame data should be reverted to their DOAD counterparts, minus his neutral throw. So 6T would be i6 (quick, ideal punishment on most whiff/blocks, especially in water), 4T would be i8, Dervish Throw would be i8 (pretty reasonable, I think, considering that his opponent gets three chances to break it), and Desert Falcon being i11.
- In addition to them being very slow, almost all of his moves can be punished on whiff or block by i12 throws.

I'm no expert, so feel free to counter this, but I don't think he'll end up on the good side of very many MUs as the meta progresses. Leon's not terrible and does have really high damage output and is very fun to play, but as far as I can tell, he only wins if his opponent fucks up. If he beats you, blame yourself.

im gonna have to respectfully disagree with you. what i think we're seeing here is the honeymoon and hype is over and people that were begging and campaigning for him come back after being cut realizing they have to work harder than they thought and are simply not as good with them as they hoped they'd be and blaming losses on the character himself instead of admitting their own shortcomings in utilizing his strengths. i mean earlier in the thread many of you were claiming sucks and is worthless because it comes out when you didn't want it to when in actuality is a great tool and useful after ducking highs/standing throws and launching them after opponents whiffs.

ALL grapplers are at disadvantage in DOA's system that always prioritized speed, mix ups, and offense over defense and throws. People who choose to main a grappler will have to accept the negatives that comes with it and work around them.

Leon has all the tools to be viable especially for a grappler, solid mixups, 2in1's, guaranteed launcher from sitdowns, hi-damage output, good NH stuns,NH launchers, great crushes, an unblockable, OHs, plus frame guardbreaks, and solid tracking. what more could you want? He definitely has his bad match ups but going as far to say he only gets wins from other peoples mistakes is BS and sounds like character blaming and scapegoating than anything else. you don't know how bad characters like Ein, Eliot, and Bass and the other lower tier characters have it compared to him.

 

[Brute]

1) Everyone only gets their wins based on others' mistakes. If your opponent doesn't make a mistake, by definition they will win (or possibly draw). That's not character-exclusive.

2) I don't think anyone campaigning for his return was expecting him to be easy wins. He never was. Honestly, his DOA5U iteration is his strongest yet, and I think most Leon players are quite happy with that.

3) His hold3P is still garbage. I'm unconvinced.

4) If someone wants to start working on match-up listings for him, I'd happily give my two cents. In general, like most slow-heavy-hitters, your defense is going to have to be quite solid against the faster characters, and defense is the hardest thing to master in this game. With Leon, when you make a precise read, you get a great reward. Anything short of that, and you will continue to get hammered. Thus, Leon will seem godly in the hands of someone who is adept at yomi and will seem pathetic in the hands of someone who is not.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

1) Everyone only gets their wins based on others' mistakes. If your opponent doesn't make a mistake, by definition they will win (or possibly draw). That's not character-exclusive.

2) I don't think anyone campaigning for his return was expecting him to be easy wins. He never was. Honestly, his DOA5U iteration is his strongest yet, and I think most Leon players are quite happy with that.

3) His hold3P is still garbage. I'm unconvinced.

4) If someone wants to start working on match-up listings for him, I'd happily give my two cents. In general, like most slow-heavy-hitters, your defense is going to have to be quite solid against the faster characters, and defense is the hardest thing to master in this game. With Leon, when you make a precise read, you get a great reward. Anything short of that, and you will continue to get hammered. Thus, Leon will seem godly in the hands of someone who is adept at yomi and will seem pathetic in the hands of someone who is not.

1.)Everyone gets their wins by outplaying their opponent, being more knowledgeable about the matchup, and utilizing their character and all their tools the the best they can. dumbing it down to simply saying all wins comes solely from opponents making mistakes is pretty narrow minded

2.)I dunno just noticing you and others grieving and over exaggerating about him being 99% mid punches and no ways to open an opponent up as if he has no other options when he has many other tools outside of mid p to pressure opponents, not to mention hold baiting and hi-counter throw punishing mid p hold spammers.

3.)i gave you valid reasons why is useful and your only argument is that you mistakenly do it on accident so if you still choose to ignore it then thats on you

4)Pretty much him in a nutshell, his bad matchups are still against the top tier fast pressure characters like alpha, christie, sarah, kasumi, ayane etc and those are at worst 6-4 in their favor with most of his match-ups being 5-5. overall he is at worst lower mid tier and at best upper mid tier...which i'm afraid is the best we'll get from a grappler in this series after the Bass fiasco in 3.1

 

[Brute]

1.)Everyone gets their wins by outplaying their opponent, being more knowledgeable about the matchup, and utilizing their character and all their tools the the best they can. dumbing it down to simply saying all losses comes from opponents mistakes is pretty narrow minded.

2.)I dunno just noticing you and others grieving and over exaggerating about him being 99% mid punch as if he has no other options when he has many other tools outside of mid p to pressure opponents, not to mention hold baiting and hi-counter throw punishing mid p hold spammers

3.)i gave you valid reasons why is useful and your only argument is that you mistakenly do it on accident so if you still choose to ignore it then thats on you

4)Pretty much him in a nutshell, his bad matchups are still against the top tier fast pressure characters like alpha, christie, sarah, kasumi, ayane etc and those are at worst 6-4 in their favor with most of his match-ups being 5-5. overall he is at worst a lower mid tier and at best upper mid tier.which i'm afraid is the best we'll get from a grappler in this series after the Bass fiasco in 3.1

1) In Game Theory that's exactly what it is. A move that does not properly anticipate/read an opponent's current/next action falls against them. These "hits" are "mistakes" in reading your opponent. If you never make one of these mistakes, you will not lose. It's impossible.

2) He has other options, but he is heavily mid punch reliant. Much more so than others. If he had more mix-ups, that would go in his favor. It would also benefit him more than, say, Rig, who already hits on multiple hit levels constantly. More mixups = more tools. More tools = stronger character. Common sense. I'm not saying that Leon is bad. Again, he isn't. He's very good if utilized properly. But, that is one thing a Leon player must keep in mind if they are used to having tools that constantly hit on all levels.

3) Uh, no. Perhaps you missed/forgot my actual response, so I'll put it here again:

Honestly, how many times do you land a non-tracking mid on NH? From stun (or on CH) 3P provides the stun you need, is faster and safer with the possibility of the second string-hit. Aside from that, 3holdP is just another mid punch in his vast array of mid-punches that people are trying to hold all the time except that it's not nearly as impressive as the others. Add to that those of us who do get the fudged input get punished for it, and in the end it just isn't all that useful for the headache it causes.

4) Well Bass was apparently top tier in DOA3.1 Anyway, my personal opinion is that Leon is mid tier, unless in the Home Stage, in which case he jumps up substantially. He's got mostly even match-ups with a few going in his favor and a few going against it. Mid.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

We really do need MU discussions going for the characters in this game, but it would likely lead to nothing, like the old vanilla tier list thread (which is still going on for some reason even though we're playing a new game now).

I'd certainly like to see how Leon reportedly fairs against the rest of the cast and use the MU knowledge to improve how I play him.

 

[AkaShocka]

Are you familiar with even fighting Alphas? If you sucked with move execution it's more than likely you will screw the burst notation up a lot with rush or oboro. I mean, I do... most people do. I think that burst she be nerfed back to normal as well, but like silver said... it's a 20 frame throw. And she doesn't have the best offense in the game (anymore) and the worst defense possible. All that's required to start an insane chain with Leon is getting the opponent in the air (which IS NOT hard).

Most people that play DOA5 on a regular basis have found a way out of it, whether it be a low attack or just a duck. Countering at the wrong time is the only way she can really get burst nowadays.

Lol. Just L. O. Fucking. L

 

[DontForkWitMe]

Looks like you need some visual proof of 's usefulness and when to apply it

notice at the :13 second mark akira goes in for a throw which Leon ducks causing akira to whiff. Leon is now in crouch status which means in order to do any other attack he'd have to waste his frame advantage to stand up first to do a standing attack giving the akira player plenty time to recover from his whiffed throw attempt and block, interrupt, sidestep, or hold any follow up. Me being the great player that i am cant allow such an opportunity to be wasted and utilize while leon was in crouch status which launched akira in the air during his whiffed throw animation for hi-counter hit damage granting me the air throw that i cleverly redirect behind me into the fuel tank dangerzone thus bouncing him high enough back into my grasp for a second air throw into it again draining 60% of akira's life bar

And you know what attack gave me access to that damage?

fucking

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Yeah. I'm gonna need to start applying that too.

 

[Brute]

notice at the :13 second mark akira goes in for a throw which Leon ducks causing akira to whiff. Leon is now in crouch status which means in order to do any other attack he'd have to waste his frame advantage to stand up first to do a standing attack

Shouldn't WR K have done the trick but with extra damage? It's 4 frames faster (should account for the transition frames alone, as I believe it's 4 frames to stand up from crouching) and is initiated from the ducking position. Does more damage and since you say that you were using the attack specifically to score a HiC, you wouldn't be worried about him using a high crush as the whole point was to get that HiC. The HiC launch from WR K should be max-threshold launch (and may even allow for the 3P->air throw juggle, though I'm just speculating on that). All that follow-up damage you would have gotten from using WR K, plus more.

Even in this situation I'm not finding the hold3P to be an option he needs. Other moves are still better.

 

[XZero264]

Take it to the Leon subforums, we can discuss that there (we all have different opinions on it).

 

[deathofaninja]

Lol. Just L. O. Fucking. L

Obviously you still get caught by it. So allow me to quote you.