What was the point of Force Techs, exactly?

[Rikuto]

I respect everyone's opinions

And this is why you won't win an argument on the internet, sir.

 

[SilverKhaos]

It's good even without taking wake-up kicks into account. Because forced wake-up, if executed successfully, gives major frame advantage to attacker and forces opponent into state in which real damage can be dealt. (You cannot do a lot of damage to grounded opponent.)

Which is the point. being grounded is supposed to be the slight relief/breather for the defender. The attack/combo has ended, now the defender has a chance to recover/retaliate. That's supposed to be the point of being grounded.

 

[Yaguar]

And this is why you won't win an argument on the internet, sir.

I should have found a way to slap more sarcasm on that post without talking about cookies, unicorns and rainbows.

 

[Rikuto]

Which is the point. being grounded is supposed to be the slight relief/breather for the defender. The attack/combo has ended, now the defender has a chance to recover/retaliate. That's supposed to be the point of being grounded.

In what game?

Because it doesn't work that way in anything. Not VF, not Tekken, not SC, not even 2D fighters.

Doesn't work that way in real life MMA either. It means you're about to get the shit beat out of you.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

 

[SilverKhaos]

In any other game, you lose control the moment you get hit. Just sayin'. It means you have to play defense, it means you have to work harder, it means you need to know what their options are, etc, etc. Getting hit in DOA is a slap in a lot of cases, and then you don't know what's gonna happen.

Because if I knock you down, there's no logical reason I should be at disadvantage. If I knock you down stairs, I shouldn't be forced to guess what wake up kick you're gonna do when you're on the ground.

One his is no damage, and promotes more guessing.

Okay, seriously, stop saying "guessing". By your logic any possible action that any attacker or defender could ever take in any fighting game is just "guessing".

Also...if you knock me down, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage. That's the point. Your advantage, which led to me being knocked down, has ended, and you are now at risk because you don't know what the opponent will do from the ground. Hence why the intelligent thing would be to simply back up and let them get up so they can't retaliate properly, or play it risky and stand nearby, with a plan to counter, block or grab as they get up.

 

[Rikuto]

Okay, seriously, stop saying "guessing". By your logic any possible action that any attacker or defender could ever take in any fighting game is just "guessing".

Also...if you knock me down, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage. That's the point. Your advantage, which led to me being knocked down, has ended, and you are now at risk because you don't know what the opponent will do from the ground. Hence why the intelligent thing would be to simply back up and let them get up so they can't retaliate properly, or play it risky and stand nearby, with a plan to counter, block or grab as they get up.

No, it means you are now in a worse situation than you were before... because now you are immobile.

Where do you get these silly ideas, anyway?

I have to ask, because I'm really curious. NO SERIOUS FIGHTING GAME works the way you describe.

 

[SilverKhaos]

No, you want a way out of fucking up that doesn't require the use of intelligent thought.

I want to be rewarded for the neutral game which requires a ton of intelligent thought.

So what your saying is "wah I don't want the opponent to be able to counter me rushing in" ISN'T wanting a way out of fucking up? Because it sure sounds like it.

I want to be rewarded for intelligent thought and tactics. You want to be rewarded for just rushing in without much risk of retaliation.

You want a guaranteed offense (which would defeat the purpose of playing a fighting game). I want a balanced offense and defense. It doesn't get any more cut and dry than that.

 

[Rikuto]

So what your saying is "wah I don't want the opponent to be able to counter me rushing in" ISN'T wanting a way out of fucking up? Because it sure sounds like it.

I want to be rewarded for intelligent thought and tactics. You want to be rewarded for just rushing in without much risk of retaliation.

You want a guaranteed offense (which would defeat the purpose of playing a fighting game). I want a balanced offense and defense. It doesn't get any more cut and dry than that.

I had risk during the neutral game when we were both in full control of our characters. I won that engagement and now I expect to be rewarded for it with greater control of the match.

That is how literally every type of game works, except the one you are talking about which does not exist.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

One more, this was just too good to leave out!

 

[SilverKhaos]

No, it means you are now in a worse situation than you were before... because now you are immobile.

Where do you get these silly ideas, anyway?

I have to ask, because I'm really curious. NO SERIOUS FIGHTING GAME works the way you describe.

On the ground is not "immobile", (Barring force techs, which is the problem). Lay on the ground, right now. Are you "immobile"? No, of course not. You can stand up, get up swinging, tackle from the ground, grab at them, etc, etc. You have options.

Where do you get these silly ideas, anyway?


I've always enjoyed DOA for being the closest to what a fight is actually like, except 5, as crap like this not only veers even further away from actually fighting, but it's also coddling the ADD rushdown kids who just wanna combocombocombo, and never really have to learn how to outmaneuver their opponent.

Think about it. most people's big goals are in fighters nowadays are to "get a #-hit combo!". The hell does that matter? This isn't bubble bobble, you shouldn't be trying to get a "high score" as your main priority.

blah, anyways, ranting too much off-topic, let's go back to talking about the actual purpose of force teching, and whether DOA would be better with or without it, not about how people play.

 

[SilverKhaos]

I had risk during the neutral game when we were both in full control of our characters. I won that engagement and now I expect to be rewarded for it with greater control of the match.

That is how literally every type of game works, except the one you are talking about which does not exist.

You were rewarded by WINNING THE ENGAGEMENT. They were knocked down, they lost. How self-entitled do you need to be to expect more reward than that?

The issue here is that you constantly want 2+ rewards for only 1 victory. It should be "1 accomplishment, 1 reward."

 

[SilverKhaos]

Anyhoo...less arguing, more discussing, gonna try to stay on topic.

So for that purpose....Do you think it would be better to KEEP Force Techs, or do you think DOA would be better off without them, and going back to the wakeup game?

 

[Gruff757]

Anyhoo...less arguing, more discussing, gonna try to stay on topic.

So for that purpose....Do you think it would be better to KEEP Force Techs, or do you think DOA would be better off without them, and going back to the wakeup game?

dude just edit your posts stop multiposting like that

 

[Rikuto]

You were rewarded by WINNING THE ENGAGEMENT. They were knocked down, they lost. How self-entitled do you need to be to expect more reward than that?

The issue here is that you constantly want 2+ rewards for only 1 victory. It should be "1 accomplishment, 1 reward."

Considering that the person on the ground is in a superior state of attack thanks to tons of invincibility frames (which your ideal wakeup game requires) yes, I require much more than that.

I have absolutely no interest in taking a small amount of damage only to put myself in a strategically bad situation. There is more to strategy than lifebar and mixups.

 

[Chris Harris]

Okay let's clarify what you are arguing?

You are upset because now the downed attacks force the opponent up?

Assuming that is correct I will move forward if not feel free to ignore.

The whole point of getting the knock down is so you have the advantage. That is where the struggle begins in ANYTHING (even life) if I knock you down you are fucked. How fucked you are isn't the point but just know you are now in "trouble".

In fighting games there needs to be oki. It's what most characters aim for in a game because that's when you get your offense TRULY started. Now some characters have a better (trickier) oki than others but we're not arguing that.

In DOA there was no oki (sorta was in DoA4 but only a few characters had FULL access to it) so the game ends up being bland. Never in a game do you AIM to be knocked down so people have to back off or get hit by a stunning attack that gives you offense after you get your shit pushed in.

If you watch the matches of Mamba vs Manny, if he got put in a situation that made him deal with a wake up kick he would do an air attack so if he gets hit it knocks him down. He always does this because it is more advantageous to be on the ground so he at least has the "option" lol.

 

[Musourenka]

You were rewarded by WINNING THE ENGAGEMENT. They were knocked down, they lost. How self-entitled do you need to be to expect more reward than that?

The issue here is that you constantly want 2+ rewards for only 1 victory. It should be "1 accomplishment, 1 reward."

The issue is that if there's only one reward for everything (damage only, for example), then there's no momentum. It literally becomes Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

[Brute]

Force techs counter-balance wake-up kicks, imo. Without them, the wake-up kick game becomes even more ridiculous then it is now.

Of course, a few characters can play into the force tech thing a bit too much, but in general it's a valid strategy.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I've always enjoyed DOA for being the closest to what a fight is actually like, except 5, as crap like this not only veers even further away from actually fighting, but it's also coddling the ADD rushdown kids who just wanna combocombocombo, and never really have to learn how to outmaneuver their opponent.

Did you actually play DOA4? There were massive lists of force tech set ups in that game, not pseudo, guaranteed force tech's that were far more dangerous than in this game.

So the people who want to be rewarded for scoring a knock down are "ADD rush down kids"? Just because they don't agree with you that makes them children that suffer from a mental disorder? Grow the fuck up and stop degrading people for having opinions that are different to yours.

You don't want to deal with frame disadvantage and others don't want to be disadvantaged for successfully maintaining pressure. I have no idea what makes you think your 'opinion' is a valid and mature one and theirs is the opinion of a child suffering ADD.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Considering that the person on the ground is in a superior state of attack thanks to tons of invincibility frames (which your ideal wakeup game requires) yes, I require much more than that.

I have absolutely no interest in taking a small amount of damage only to put myself in a strategically bad situation. There is more to strategy than lifebar and mixups.

Could always just back up so they the person on the ground loses their advantage...problem solved.