What was the point of Force Techs, exactly?

[ScattereDreams]

Compared to Tekken and Soul Calibur, DOA's oki/force tech is a blessing... but after three pages on going back and forth I still don't think the people complaining about force tech's understand that "it is designed for the standing player to continue his/her pressure and keep the momentum going by receiving frame advantage from force tech's" =/

The ones complaining should be happy it's not DOA4 where every low attack pretty much conditioned you to a force tech.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Did you actually play DOA4? There were massive lists of force tech set ups in that game, not pseudo, guaranteed force tech's that were far more dangerous than in this game.

So the people who want to be rewarded for scoring a knock down are "ADD rush down kids"? Just because they don't agree with you that makes them children that suffer from a mental disorder? Grow the fuck up and stop degrading people for having opinions that are different to yours.

You don't want to deal with frame disadvantage and others don't want to be disadvantaged for successfully maintaining pressure. I have no idea what makes you think your 'opinion' is a valid and mature one and theirs is the opinion of a child suffering ADD.

The irony of this post is deafening.

Force techs counter-balance wake-up kicks, imo. Without them, the wake-up kick game becomes even more ridiculous then it is now.

Of course, a few characters can play into the force tech thing a bit too much, but in general it's a valid strategy.

See now that's a valid purpose. But like you said certain characters can exploit it a little/way too much.

The issue is that if there's only one reward for everything (damage only, for example), then there's no momentum. It literally becomes Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Well, not really.

For example, in this situation, its not just damage, its also the fact that they are knocked down, losing any possible momentum and effective restarting their efforts.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Compared to Tekken and Soul Calibur, DOA's oki/force tech is a blessing... but after three pages on going back and forth I still don't think the people complaining about force tech's understand that "it is designed for the standing player to continue his/her pressure and keep the momentum going by receiving frame advantage from force tech's" =/

The ones complaining should be happy it's not DOA4 where every low attack pretty much conditioned you to a force tech.

I understand that, but my argument is this: Why do they need to be able to keep their momentum going after knocking the opponent down? They already beat them into the ground. It's just excessive to be able to keep momentum after that.

 

[Rikuto]

Could always just back up so they the person on the ground loses their advantage...problem solved.

Except that you can't in the case of most characters, and certain stages.

I understand that, but my argument is this: Why do they need to be able to keep their momentum going after knocking the opponent down? They already beat them into the ground. It's just excessive to be able to keep momentum after that.

As long as you can block, it's not excessive.

 

[Ghosty-J]

Practically everyone has given a good answer to this question already, but I'll just throw in my short two cents.

I mainly use force techs to put my opponent into a position where I can continue the pressure. Most of the time a force tech can happen so suddenly that they down have time to react and I can follow up with more attacks. Other times they'd go in a panic and attack the moment they completely recover, which gives me a good chance to lay down a Counter Hit. Obviously there are many different ways to deal with someone who's very force-tech-happy, but it's encouraged you do it to keep the pressure going. And most importantly, maintaining control of the match for a period of time.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Why do we keep constantly getting threads like these with such stupid questions? This seriously didn't deserve to be a topic at all and should have been asked in a regular in-game related discussion thread. It's fine to ask questions about something, but don't ask a question then complain about how you think it's "unfair" because you choose not to use something.

Every fighting game has it's okizeme/OTG/force tech scenarios for advantage. You may as well not even play a fighting game if you don't like trying to gain advantage and momentum throughout a match.

 

[d3v]

Well it's certainly no fun when they can't fight back, which is why I can't understand why anyone would ever want to do that. I literally NEVER do force tech for that reason: it's no fun.

People do it for the same reason we do vortex, safe jumps and ambiguous cross ups in Street Fighter. The point is to maintain an offensive advantage after knockdown. It's a fighting game after all, you want to be able to maintain that advantage to get that win.

To quote from "The Educated Gentleperson's Fighting Game Primer"

Your goal is to make a series of intelligent situations that constrict your opponent’s options, forcing them to make ever-more-dangerous gambles until they do something you can punish them for. You want to put your opponent in these situations over and over until they lose, and then you put them in these situations again and again until they don’t want to play with you any more. Basically, Street Fighter II — and modern fighting games in general — are about making the game as tortuous and awful as possible for your opponent while they try to do the same to you. It’s a beautiful thing.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

TN is under the direction of a new 'captain' now. From what I gather, DOA 4 was 'loaded' with FT setups. They seem to have been greatly reduced in 5. I find that forcing the opponent to stand up against their will is all-the-way whack. However, it's an advantage that many seem to enjoy having access to. So TN can't completely get rid of the FT strategy -- or wake-up kicks -- without alienating their fanbase. They can -- and have -- mitigate both moves, as they find their groove and continue forging DOA into what THEY think DOA should be.

I sincerely think we are at a new starting point, that is also a crossroad. The burden is on TN to create a better oki game than the one that currently exists. Nerfs do help, but they are at best a pacification. They simply must make DOA theirs, otherwise we as players are left in limbo. Left to debate over the merits of one faulty game design as it does battle against yet another.

I'm not against pressing a player after a KD -- I'm all for it -- but not like this.

 

[Brute]

To quote from "The Educated Gentleperson's Fighting Game Primer"

Not my philosophy, but that's an awesome excerpt nonetheless. xD

 

[d3v]

At least let the muthafucka get up! It just doesnt sound honorable, but maybe thats just me..

Honor has no place in a competitive fighting game.
Play to win.

 

[SilverKhaos]

Honor has no place in a competitive fighting game.
Play to win.

Sportsmanship has no place in sports.

 

[Awesmic]

You have no business fighting here...

 

[d3v]

Sportsmanship has no place in sports.

Typical scrubquote.

Bringing up "sportsmanship" in the context of force techs, vortex, OTGs, etc. implies that competitors shouldn't press the advantage even when the rules of said sport/event allows them too.

 

[Chris Harris]

TN is under the direction of a new 'captain' now. From what I gather, DOA 4 was 'loaded' with FT setups. They seem to have been greatly reduced in 5. I find that forcing the opponent to stand up against their will is all-the-way whack. However, it's an advantage that many seem to enjoy having access to. So TN can't completely get rid of the FT strategy -- or wake-up kicks -- without alienating their fanbase. They can -- and have -- mitigate both moves, as they find their groove and continue forging DOA into what THEY think DOA should be.

I sincerely think we are at a new starting point, that is also a crossroad. The burden is on TN to create a better oki game than the one that currently exists. Nerfs do help, but they are at best a pacification. They simply must make DOA theirs, otherwise we as players are left in limbo. Left to debate over the merits of one faulty game design as it does battle against yet another.

I'm not against pressing a player after a KD -- I'm all for it -- but not like this.

Alienating a fanbase? The scrubs won't notice the difference and the only reason the average players will notice is because good players will stomp on them but now it will "feel" like they are getting stomped on.

 

[Jefffcore]

Sportsmanship has no place in sports.

Players in sports do everything they can within the confines of the rules to WIN a game. You see those people shaking hands after they play a match? That's sportsmanship.

I'll keep saying guessing, because that's all the game is. You want more guessing because you don't like getting beat.

 

[Rikuto]

Sportsmanship has no place in sports.

Having enough respect to do everything in your power to win and still being able to shake hands afterwards is good sportsmanship.

What you do is not.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

Alienating a fanbase? The scrubs won't notice the difference and the only reason the average players will notice is because good players will stomp on them but now it will "feel" like they are getting stomped on.

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[TakedaZX]

Anyway Mr. Khaos you took my comment completely out of context but since were going there.

1) If you've knocked him on the ground, then you've beat him into the ground. You already beat his ass. but if you get start trying to kick him while he's down, he'll probably still knife you for being dumb enough to get that close.

If he runs at me, hops into the air (for whatever reason), and I front kick him in the chest down to the ground, is that beating his ass? No. I knocked him down. He's still got HP to burn, so I let him get up? Better yet if I wait, I've gotta deal with a get up slash that possibly could lead to losing half of my life? (Wake up Kicks)

That's basically what the attackers have to deal with, without forced techs. Just because you want to be able to get up slash me doesn't mean you should be able to because I won neutral game. You made bad choices, so now you're forced to pick your poison: Block/Hold my strike, strike my grab, or grab my OH. Guess how much damage you've taken... like what... 10 points.

Why are you crying? Just guess right and once you're done "guessing", pay attention to your opponent, his character, and the circumstances so you can make an EDUCATED decision on his or her options.

slightly off topic, but a "knife" does not equal "obviously has the ability to overpower" anymore than long fingernails do. Its just a sharp utensil that is nothing more than an additional hazard, not a gamebreaking advantage.

A knife has more fatal options of entry than fist do. Sure I can punch you in your temple to kill you. You can slit my throat, stab me in the heart, cut me multiple times to make me bleed out or just immobilize me and let me bleed out. It's easier for the knife wielder.

Long fingernails will break before even breaking through two layers of your skin. Lets be real here.

2) Force techs can't be "dealt with", that's the entire concept. The only real option (unless i'm mistaken, in which case feel free to elaborate) is to never get knocked down.

True, guaranteed forced tech setups can't be deal with. All you can do is take the damage or in the case of pseudo setups, you can tech yourself and guess right on the follow up, or if you know the person/how to adapt, you can make educated decisions on your retaliation after getting up. Now you're sitting here having done a 140 damage combo because you were patient.

3) "false sense of honor"? What? It's just not fun to beat on someone who can't do anything about it. And this is a videogame, it's supposed to be FUN.

It is fun to the rest of us when we are allowed to beat down our opponent for guessing right. It's also fun when were put into a pressured situation because the returned the momentum by making a correct decision to stop our offense. The heat of the battle. Just be glad that you have invincibility frames in your wake up kicks because in any other game being on the ground is no where near as rewarding as it is in DOA5. Forced Techs balance that aspect. Even after this next patch wake up kicks are gunna be powerful show stoppers, they just won't open the offender up to free stun game.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Helena , for example, is at negative frames after every move she does. The only way she can force her advantage is by force teching

PS: I meant lack not luck

So true!! And other characters have force techs as well, some better than others (Bass's pick up, so deadly).
And if they tech roll, isnt Helena only at a +4 advantage? And she's gonna have to inch closer to the opponent, so she really isnt at a big advantage unless they are backed up to a wall. Many times i will get beat out from a tech rolled person. Its hard because if i wanna beat out the oponent i have to do Helena's fast attacks, which eventually will easily be countered. So its hard to mix it up and not risk being interrupted.

 

[d3v]

I believe the problem lies in the fact that the OP wants a game where both players are reset to neutral everytime after something happens. The thing is, none of the competitive fighting games we see these days allows this. It's basically tantamount to wanting boxing when what everyone else is playing is MMA.