Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

[d3v]

As for "POTENTIAL" exploit, yes when you burst there's nothing the opponent can do, hence "POTENTIAL" exploit. I'm not talking about pre-burst, but the burst itself and the consequences thereafter. This is why I feel a bit concerned regarding getting it too early with a double burst, but I am not 100% against it if you knew how to read.

And this is wrong how? I mean, this is basically how it works in every other fighting game out there. The ones that do allow you to get out of a combo either have some limit to how many times you effectively can or put some dire consequence to failing to do so properly. While DOA falls into the latter category, there's still the fact that, it still presents alot more opportunities to do so than other, giving the impression of "free" combo breaks. The closest I can recall to this is counter-exchange in UMvC3 where you can burst out of certain attacks when comboed in mid-air. The main difference however is the frequency, you can pretty much bypass using exchange attacks in UMvC3, while it's harder to string together a combo that doesn't have critical stun in DOA.

On another note, one thing that I (and this is speaking as someone who plays other games competitively) odd, is how defense is talked about among some folk here as if it happens after someone gets hit. Again, this strikes me (and I'm sure alot of other non-DOA players) as odd because most of the time, defense happens before someone gets hit. At the same time, this makes me wonder, why not just buff and/or refine the games defensive mechanics outside of being hit?

 

[Berzerk!]

And this is wrong how? I mean, this is basically how it works in every other fighting game out there. The ones that do allow you to get out of a combo either have some limit to how many times you effectively can or put some dire consequence to failing to do so properly. While DOA falls into the latter category, there's still the fact that, it still presents alot more opportunities to do so than other, giving the impression of "free" combo breaks. The closest I can recall to this is counter-exchange in UMvC3 where you can burst out of certain attacks when comboed in mid-air. The main difference however is the frequency, you can pretty much bypass using exchange attacks in UMvC3, while it's harder to string together a combo that doesn't have critical stun in DOA.

On another note, one thing that I (and this is speaking as someone who plays other games competitively) odd, is how defense is talked about among some folk here as if it happens after someone gets hit. Again, this strikes me (and I'm sure alot of other non-DOA players) as odd because most of the time, defense happens before someone gets hit. At the same time, this makes me wonder, why not just buff and/or refine the games defensive mechanics outside of being hit?

I'm glad you put "free" in quotation marks when referring to counters as combo breaks, because it shows you understand they aren't free, but a risk that can put the defending player/player at disadvantage into a worse situation.

It's not that its harder to string together a combo, but there's a different risk/reward decision to make. While its good to debate the adjustments to effectiveness of the counter holds, I just think its important to reframe the discussion around DOA to avoid downplaying the validity of having a counter system at all.

It's a good risk reward element and having the possibility of reversing a combo does not delegitimise the game. Players that think that way are not opening their minds to what DOA has to offer. Seems like a basic point but worth reiterating.

CB's totally fit into that risk reward equation because you've put yourself in a position to be rewarded - in that respect it's not much different than a launcher. Just another attack both players have to be aware of and watch for, and that sense of danger/anticipation makes the mindgames more meaningful this time around. There really is consequence to these decisions for both attacker and defender, and therefore the smart/better player can have control

 

[Skilletor]

On another note, one thing that I (and this is speaking as someone who plays other games competitively) odd, is how defense is talked about among some folk here as if it happens after someone gets hit. Again, this strikes me (and I'm sure alot of other non-DOA players) as odd because most of the time, defense happens before someone gets hit. At the same time, this makes me wonder, why not just buff and/or refine the games defensive mechanics outside of being hit?

Indeed. I think this thinking falls in line with Master saying that stun puts the attacker at advantage. Strange paradigm, imo.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

And this is wrong how? I mean, this is basically how it works in every other fighting game out there. The ones that do allow you to get out of a combo either have some limit to how many times you effectively can or put some dire consequence to failing to do so properly. While DOA falls into the latter category, there's still the fact that, it still presents alot more opportunities to do so than other, giving the impression of "free" combo breaks. The closest I can recall to this is counter-exchange in UMvC3 where you can burst out of certain attacks when comboed in mid-air. The main difference however is the frequency, you can pretty much bypass using exchange attacks in UMvC3, while it's harder to string together a combo that doesn't have critical stun in DOA.

On another note, one thing that I (and this is speaking as someone who plays other games competitively) odd, is how defense is talked about among some folk here as if it happens after someone gets hit. Again, this strikes me (and I'm sure alot of other non-DOA players) as odd because most of the time, defense happens before someone gets hit. At the same time, this makes me wonder, why not just buff and/or refine the games defensive mechanics outside of being hit?

Well like I said AGAIN, I am neither with nor against this. But I am concerned about the repeatability of it.
One way to think of it is by looking at Yun in SF4AE. Once he had his super meter, chances are you were gonna get blasted away with a Geneijin because of the million ways leading to it, which leads to the corner EVERY TIME which could lead to ULTRA if he had one. It was broken and disgusting and repeatable like hell and it acctually got boring. I just don't want to see this form of lengthy free combo business in DOA, at least not in a way that is relatively easy to obtain. I would rather have massive damage like that be earned. But I will say this again, I am NOT against BURST, but I am concerned with the exploits that may be associated with it. Lets move on.

I like the point you raised in the second paragraph.
Here is the problem I have with most of the discussions held in this thread, or any DOA thread in fact:
It is being heavily compared to other games and other game mechanics. You simply cannot do this because every game flows and evolves differently. Having universal rules for every game out there makes them pretty dull. Taking this into consideration, DOA plays extremely different from almost anything else out there. Now the way it evolved my seem like 180 degrees in the opposite direction to how other games have evolved, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. All I am saying is that it is really hard to justify a mechanic that works in a game and apply it to another without giving the latter a complete facelift so both games play the same and the mechanic can actually work.

Going back to your defense argument. This heavily depends on the way DOA flows compared to other games.
A big number of moves in DOA put you in critical stun and that is usually where the trouble starts. Moves like single jabs on normal hit for example don't do anything and therefore are not much of a concern because you can't combo from them without critical stun. When you compare what happens in DOA to what happens in other games, the actual mix-up starts with the start of the critical stun. Getting the first POKE does not mean you got your guaranteed state yet, you have to earn it from there. On the other hand, other games (particularly 2D games), give you the guaranteed damage from the point you connect the light jab and from there you get your world of damage this is where guarding the first hit becomes a much bigger threat. I am not saying it is not a threat in DOA as well, especially since you have normal hit launchers and wall and dangerzone slams. It is just a more common scenario to be on the defensive from the 2nd hit or after a counter hit (both of which would lead you to critical stun) because that is how the game works in general. One of the reasons for this is that normal hit launchers and wall slam moves tend to be extremely unsafe.

In VF, even if you connect a string like say Jacky's PP4PK, you will not get a 4 hit combo. In fact you will get 2 then the 3rd and 4th could be either ducked, blocked, side stepped and with certain characters like Akira and Aoi, held !
I find this very similar to a senario in DOA where you get an initial stun and your follow up is not guaranteed. In fact, this happens to almost every 4 hit string in the game (and some 3 hit strings as well) even if the first attack of the string stuns you like Sarah's 9P+KPPK for example. This is where Free/guard canceling comes into play, and where delayable strings come into play as well.

This used to be true for SC as well, where the follow up was not always guaranteed and you could for most parts shake out of your stun. In SC5 they changed the system by making stuns unshakable which lead to linear repetitive combos done with no brain power or skill needed but muscle memory. Whoever pokes with a stun first gets his dumb combo. This, in addition to removing normal GI also turned the game heavily into a somewhat of a turtley game, especially since the only threat guard crush has now is just a combo, and then your bar is back to what it was. Granted, that one combo could end up killing you, but if you have the health lead you could just turtle the hell out of the opponent get hit with the combo and have your guard gauge reset and turtle again. ( I also didn't like that you got rewarded with an extra bar for being at your last round but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand). In SCIV on the other hand they turned the game into an aggressive game where you couldn't simply just turtle as the guard crush would lead to a critical finish. They also made it so that the fighting forced you to use GI to rebuild your lost soul gauge, not to mention the whole ability to shake out of stun was there. This may have not agreed with a lot of players out there but I personally much preferred its aggressive tone of SCIV over SCV. (on a side note to whoever wants to bring up just guards, yes I know just guarding was added. Please count the number of just guards done in the last MLG and compare it to the number of meter used GI and then get back to me and tell me which system was acctually better).

As I mentioned before In 2D this is not the case as the 1st hit is usually the main threat. Which is why in 2D your concern is more about, overhead/low mixups, crossup/non-crossup mixups, frame traps vs invincibile start up moves, unblockable setups .. etc.

Another thing worth considering is the amount of scaling involved when doing a long combo in 2D games. When you compare it to 3D, the scaling is either minimal, or just not there.

Every game has its own logic.

 

[Skilletor]

This used to be true for SC as well, where the follow up was not always guaranteed and you could for most parts shake out of your stun. In SC5 they changed the system by making stuns unshakable which lead to linear repetitive combos done with no brain power or skill needed but muscle memory. Whoever pokes with a stun first gets his dumb combo. This, in addition to removing normal GI also turned the game heavily into a somewhat of a turtley game, especially since the only threat guard crush has now is just a combo, and then your bar is back to what it was. Granted, that one combo could end up killing you, but if you have the health lead you could just turtle the hell out of the opponent get hit with the combo and have your guard gauge reset and turtle again. ( I also didn't like that you got rewarded with an extra bar for being at your last round but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand). In SCIV on the other hand they turned the game into an aggressive game where you couldn't simply just turtle as the guard crush would lead to a critical finish. They also made it so that the fighting forced you to use GI to rebuild your lost soul gauge, not to mention the whole ability to shake out of stun was there. This may have not agreed with a lot of players out there but I personally much preferred its aggressive tone of SCIV over SCV. (on a side note to whoever wants to bring up just guards, yes I know just guarding was added. Please count the number of just guards done in the last MLG and compare it to the number of meter used GI and then get back to me and tell me which system was acctually better).

SCV is by far the most offensive SC yet. The way you phrase this tells me perfectly what type of player you are.

SCIV post patch made guard crushes negligible. Also worth nothing that stun combos were added in SC3; stuns in SCIV were pretty much the same as SCV, and if any gripe with longer combos is to be had, it is because if the brave edge system and not the stun system which has been constant for 3 iterations now.

It is hilarious that you call SCV a turtley game when comparing it to its predecessors.

In VF, even if you connect a string like say Jacky's PP4PK, you will not get a 4 hit combo. In fact you will get 2 then the 3rd and 4th could be either ducked, blocked, side stepped and with certain characters like Akira and Aoi, held !
I find this very similar to a senario in DOA where you get an initial stun and your follow up is not guaranteed. In fact, this happens to almost every 4 hit string in the game (and some 3 hit strings as well) even if the first attack of the string stuns you like Sarah's 9P+KPPK for example. This is where Free/guard canceling comes into play, and where delayable strings come into play as well.

This is a horrible analogy.


Firs off, strings like this, for the most part, are never guaranteed in fighters on normal hit. The situation you mention here is the same on normal hit in VF and DoA. However, on counter hit, the string in VF might become a true combo. In DoA, this combo can now be countered from. It is in your best interest in DoA to get normal hits instead of critical hits, but this is rarely the case.

The difference between the games (DoA and pretty much every other fighter) is that, on CH, the attacker gets guaranteed damage. In DoA, it opens up a guessing game.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

SCV is by far the most offensive SC yet. The way you phrase this tells me perfectly what type of player you are.

SCIV post patch made guard crushes negligible. Also worth nothing that stun combos were added in SC3; stuns in SCIV were pretty much the same as SCV, and if any gripe with longer combos is to be had, it is because if the brave edge system and not the stun system which has been constant for 3 iterations now.

It is hilarious that you call SCV a turtley game when comparing it to its predecessors.

The fact that GI was there gave it a more aggessive tone in general. Right now SCV is just dry without it (or with it having to cost meter for that matter). Especially considering how important meter is in the game.

As for the SCIV stuns, there were both Shakable and non-Shakable stuns. This was a huge issue that needed to be considered while playing especially for myself as I was a ROCK main and his stun attacks (which he arguably had the most in the game despite his limited moveset) were almost all shakable even post patch.
In SCV however, the non-shakable stuns take the upper hand and they are far more common, which leads to the same damn combos over and over and over again..

 

[Skilletor]

The fact that GI was there gave it a more aggessive tone in general.

Soul Calibur 2.

Guard crushes post patch in SC4 were never a threat and didn't matter. The game was slower, moves were far more unsafe than they have been in any SC, which lead to the game being a much slower and defensive game than SC5.

It sounds like you want to just attack with reckless abandon and not be punished for it.

Hmmm...lol.

 

[Awesmic]

Then slow escape or fucking counter it! I'm getting tired of you whining like a little bitch about something that isn't even a big deal. You see it as a exploit? Last I recall an exploit is gaining an unfair advantage over another player. Given the information we have you CAN do a slow escape and you CAN use a defense hold before they throw out the attack for the second time. So please tell me HOW THE FUCK is it an exploit if you have OPTIONS to defend against it?

Seriously GTFO and stop whining like a little bitch. Grow some fucking balls. I swear I need to do what DrDogg did and put your ass on ignore. Reading the stupidity in your posts gives me a fucking headache.

Well... this guy certainly snapped.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

It sounds like you want to just attack with reckless abandon and not be punished for it.

Hmmm...lol.

How the hell did you deduce that from anything I said ?

I fricken mained ROCK of all characters. If my playstyle was not safe and calculated I never would have got a damn win let alone reach far in tournaments.

And guard crush remained a threat as it lead to a guaranteed kill. If you start off a round with a red soul gauge you're pretty much fucked if you don't do something about it. You must have misunderstood me or I must have worded it incorrectly.. What is it called again ? soul crush ? That's what I meant.

 

[Jefffcore]

In VF, even if you connect a string like say Jacky's PP4PK, you will not get a 4 hit combo. In fact you will get 2 then the 3rd and 4th could be either ducked, blocked, side stepped and with certain characters like Akira and Aoi.

Are you talking about PP6PK? 4PK can't be sidestepped, and if it's blocked it gives +3. There's no reason to do it on NH.

PP6PK doesn't need to be finished. You can hit confirm the 6P, if they block you can finish with a safer follow up or fuzzy guard. If they sidestep you can just fuzzy guard again. You really have to be hitting 8_2 right after that second jab to get it in the middle of a string meaning they're taking a huge risk; I could do PP4PK and hit them if I wanted to push them. The risk is ALWAYS on the defender unless I choose to push. It's not like DOA.

If I'm punishing with a jab, I should be doing PK anyway.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Snip.

funny that you mentioned VF:

Here are the only moves that put Akira at a frame advantage or neutral on BLOCK:
- P +2 (like everyone else)
- (6)P +2 (like everyone else again)
- 46P +1 (fast and effective, guarantees followup combo, but is a High)
- 43P 0 (slow, doesn't guarantee shit unless it is a counter hit)
- qcbP +3 (slow as hell, guarantees follow up ) .. can reach up to +7 at max range
- 2G+KP +1 (the initial 2G+K is not on minus frames)
- G+K(P) +6 (fully charged only and the initial G+K is at minus)

everything else in Akira's move list puts him at negative frames on block except a fully charged 46P+K which forces a stagger.

On Hit, as with DOA you are at advantage, but this does not mean your follow up is guaranteed.
Simple examples to this would be:
4G+KP on normal hit. (P is not guaranteed)
43P2P on normal hit is not guaranteed (guaranteed on counter)
3G+KPP+K the final P+K (is not guaranteed again)
I can go on ..

And as far as your hitting 2 jabs argument goes. you are not in control as in most scenarios the follow up is either Blockable, crouchable, sidesteppable or even Holdable if you were someone like Akira or Aoi. How is this any different from the 2 jabs in DOA ?

Also being able to punish a string continuation after it hits, how is this different from a scenario of being able to hold in stun ? If anything, VF is full of 50/50s.

Here's a simple example with Sarah, pressing 4K puts you at a +4 frame advantage on block and it can reach up to +7 at max range. But, it also puts you in flamingo. despite your frame advantage (which is always great) you're down to a 50/50. Is the opponent going for a crouching jab or not ? will they side step or not ? if they attempt a crouching jab it will beat out almost all your options because theres an extra factor involved which is Push back and the distance between characters. So now you have to think will I go for the P+K low hold or not ?what if I do and he goes mid or High ? its just a ton of 50/50s all happening at once.

I remember DrDogg mentioning something about having a +12 frame advantage should guarantee your 11 frame startup move somewhere in the 8WR forum. Mr. Wah at the time gave him a logical answer for why he isn't getting it to connect but his comment was completely overlooked and the rant continued. The answer to this is PUSH BACK. The follow up move may be with an 11 frame start up but this does not mean you connected on the 11th frame. The active frames can be from the 11th onward to say 15th frame for argument's sake. Because of the distance created from the first move, the active frame that connected is most likely somewhere between the 13th to the 15th.....which is why the moves cannot link together.

The difference is that in the VF frame data it tells you at which frame the move actually connected. But in DOA's frame data display, it only tells you how many frames are needed to start up (without pointing out which frame actually connects from that particular distance). This is why you don't get a frame data log when you don't connect the move in VF but you still get a log when you don't connect it in DOA. this does not mean that the frame data is wrong. It is simply a different representation.

I mentioned before that there are plenty of ways to get guaranteed damage in DOA5 now, be it from a normal hit launcher, to a back turned state , to a wall slam, to a dangerzone. But, the net result of any combo resulting from these is limited and reasonable. When you launch early, you get minimal height leading to minimal damage.
When you burst from just 2 repeated hits, you get a damn powerblow, into a dangerzone, into a juggle. You see the difference here ? This is what I am trying to address, because it is too much of a reward and certainly too early in the combo to be that guaranteed.

But, I am NOT against BURSTS for the last time! But I am not with them either... I'm neutral.

 

[MASTER]

​

I'm going to make a thread here so it doesn't get talked about in Bryan's thread like it currently is. This way people can continue to ask him questions and stay on topic.

Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience​

​

Hello everyone it seems like things have calmed down since E3 and the release of the new Dead or Alive 5 Character trailer that shows Rig. Now that I have some time to sit down for a few minutes I want to discuss my experience with the E3 DOA5 build.

My time was rather limited with the new build but I was able to notice some interesting changes. With that said I will be discussing the main topics that were talked about at the event first.

Critical Burst is something new to the game of Dead Or Alive but something that was somewhat implemented in DOADimensions. Critical burst is a move that puts you in a state that makes you completely vulnerable to any attack including Powerblows. This attack is usually, but not always, a mid attack and right now the majority of the cast has one critical burst move...

Full article here

I plan to answer any questions, to the best of my knowledge, that you all may have about the game. I've seen a few posts from players that may have misunderstood a few points that i made, but i will post later and explain a bit better when i have time.
MASTER

 

[Matt Ponton]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the build. It's interesting and fun to hear so many different takes on it from various players.

 

[DrDogg]

Sorwah, since Manny wants his own thread, can you just move the comments from the Q&A thread to here.

I think the Q&A thread is fine, but whatever...

Starts here and it's pretty much all we've talked about the last two pages: http://freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5-e3-version-q-a.780/page-25#post-19364

 

[Jefffcore]

Here's a simple example with Sarah, pressing 4K puts you at a +4 frame advantage on block and it can reach up to +7 at max range. But, it also puts you in flamingo. despite your frame advantage (which is always great) you're down to a 50/50. Is the opponent going for a crouching jab or not ? will they side step or not ? if they attempt a crouching jab it will beat out almost all your options because theres an extra factor involved which is Push back and the distance between characters. So now you have to think will I go for the P+K low hold or not ?what if I do and he goes mid or High ? its just a ton of 50/50s all happening at once..

Your fastest mid(assuming it does reach). If they sidestep you can guard.

Do you have a standing throw in Flamingo?

Nittaku is about as 50/50 as it gets, but the person with advantage can always just throw a safe mid. The risk is still on the player at disadvantage; they HAVE to make a guess.

DOA4 was almost the complete opposite. Having an advantage meant having a stun, and having a stun meant needing to know how your opponent was going to react, and on block everything was negative (and still is).

DOA is the attacker being at risk VS. VF where the defender is at risk.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The difference is that in the VF frame data it tells you at which frame the move actually connected. But in DOA's frame data display, it only tells you how many frames are needed to start up (without pointing out which frame actually connects from that particular distance). This is why you don't get a frame data log when you don't connect the move in VF but you still get a log when you don't connect it in DOA. this does not mean that the frame data is wrong. It is simply a different representation.

I was a bit confused by how you worded that.

In DOA5a, the counter for the move frames continues until impact. However, there is no way to tell which hit frame it was that connected. For example, if you have a 16(3)24 attack and it connects to an opponent on the 2nd hit frame then it will read as 17. Additionally, 18 if connecting on the third frame, and 16 if connecting on the first frame. Of course, just like Virtuafighter and other fighting games like Street Fighter, the hit frame that connects can determine how much more advantage/less disadvantage that you have on the opponent because your recovery has been shortened.

Sorwah, since Manny wants his own thread, can you just move the comments from the Q&A thread to here.

I think the Q&A thread is fine, but whatever...

Starts here and it's pretty much all we've talked about the last two pages: http://freestepdodge.com/threads/doa5-e3-version-q-a.780/page-25#post-19364

Done, but since he posted it after the discussion, it makes it look as such. I have no way of changing the time of his post.

 

[just_me]

In DOA5a, the counter for the move frames continues until impact.

That's not true, is it?
The first value for "Frame" is always static and does not change, the value for advantage obviously fluctuates.
Take Busa's Ninpo 6K for example (it's safe to asume that this move has a lot of active frames, so I picked this one):
No matter the distance the first value is always 19, the advantage on block is -8 up close and up to -2(maybe less... too lazy to work out the max distance) from far away. I never saw the first value change for any other attack...
So it's pretty obvious the value shows startup an not impact, but I agree that the game could state that clearly (but I think the same goes for the VF tool... you also have to figure out what the fields and color codes mean...)

 

[Skilletor]

Master: How can you say critical bursts will add to repetition when, if I watch any match of yours, I'm sure I will see the same set of moves used repeatedly. How can you, as a top player in a fighting game, deny that repetition of the best moves is the most efficient way to play a character?

 

[grap3fruitman]

Fix
The Stun System
Move Unsafety
String Delay
Free Canceling
Tracking
Sidestepping
Offensive Damage.
Holding out of stuns.

These are all items that have been discussed here multiple yet Team Ninja continues to ignore.

All valid points, AK, with one simple reality barring this from happening. Out of time.

Which is no one's fault but Team Ninja's. We've been discussing these same exact points for years yet Team Ninja continues to ignore them.

Chill out. There's no reason to escalate this discussion to such a hostile level.

Can you blame him for snapping? I'm getting really sick of the "nothing's guaranteed in life" camp myself.

Having universal rules for every game out there makes them pretty dull.

No, it doesn't. Every single game in a genre follows the same basic rules as the other games in said genre. Every shooter follows the same rules, every racer follows the same rules, etc. Mario Kart and Forza have the same basic rules but play nothing alike. There is logic to those rules, that's why those games follow them. DOA throws fighting game logic out the window. While your argument that it makes DOA unique is true, it's not a good unique.

Every game has its own logic.

Except DOA.

I think I'm officially done with expecting anything good to come out of DOA5. I've found a fighter that I'm really fond of, enjoying and can reward me for putting time into it. That game is VF5FS and, while I'm terrible at it, I'm going to focus on that rather than hoping DOA5 will turn out good because all the evidence we have points to that not happening. Come September, you'll all be very disappointed and I'll just be a better VF5FS player.

 

[Matt Ponton]

That's not true, is it?
The first value for "Frame" is always static and does not change, the value for advantage obviously fluctuates.
Take Busa's Ninpo 6K for example (it's safe to asume that this move has a lot of active frames, so I picked this one):
No matter the distance the first value is always 19, the advantage on block is -8 up close and up to -2(maybe less... too lazy to work out the max distance) from far away. I never saw the first value change for any other attack...
So it's pretty obvious the value shows startup an not impact, but I agree that the game could state that clearly (but I think the same goes for the VF tool... you also have to figure out what the fields and color codes mean...)

I'll double check when I get home tonight to verify. This was off the top of my head and I may have been merging my memories of doing disadvantage counts between strings. I think you're right that it is in fact static.

Can you blame him for snapping? I'm getting really sick of the "nothing's guaranteed in life" camp myself.

There are better ways to respond than the way he did. If you are going in circles in the discussion, one of you will have to end it. It's best when it's 'agree to disagree' on theory fighter than having to be the person who jumps to petty name-calling to try and get a point across.