Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience
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AKNova7
Active Member
You think that's too much? Have you seen Bayman? Character does wall damage without walls, and you're complaining about power blows, huh? lol.
To be completely honest, a lot of the wall problems would have been solved by making danger zone wall damage like DOA3 and/or placing them too far away to be juggled after wall hits. Even more so, as far as I'm concerned, without constant danger zone hits, DOA should be a 3 launch kill game. Two would make the entire game annoying. Now, there's a lot of things that make DOA the problem it currently is, but it really starts with the stun system. The stun system should be used for select moves, not for the entire moveset. The majority of the moveset stunning in some condition de-balances the game by default.
To be honest, I know we're on the verge of a new DOA game, but personally, I can't wait until DOA3 HD or whatever it's remake will be called. >> I'd love to knock people into radioactive canisters again.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Can't...stop...laughing...
Must...get...up...from...floor...
Still...laughing...oh the tears
Ahem.
All fighting games are repetitive, I'm getting tired of this being a complaint. I don't think people realize how often they actually do the same moves back to back, especially for quick launchers in DoA4.
His issues with both CB and PB are ridiculous. PB would rarely be used in high level play if they stayed the way they were in alpha. They were too much of a risk and were only useful as feints and whiff punishment. Outside of that, against two solid players you'd see them at the most 2-3 times out of 10 matches, and that's pushing it. The CB mechanic actually gives the PB more purpose in its role now.
I'm also not surprised by his stun comments...If I had my way there would be even less stuns. Stuns should be difficult to get and offer high rewards, not be common and occur every other hit with more risk then anything else.
d3v
Well-Known Member
I really hope that TN does not listen to this guy.
EDIT:
Fuck it, this is going in SRK's Scrubquotes thread.
Critical Burst to a degree I can accept when you surpass critical threshold, as this takes a bit more skill to achieve. Granted some characters can get it earlier than others, but those characters also tend to be slower so I can kind of swallow it to a degree.
I still feel weird about the fact that repeating the burst move twice will grant you Critical burst (yes, I do know this is shortcut to exceeding threshold). but the outcome is far too deadly for this. As far as I see it this is an exploit. In this one condition I have suggested several times that if a move was repeated twice (regardless of what move it is), it should always lead to knockdown or reset. But I also DO see the value of having it in, which I will explain near the end of this comment.
Critical Burst as it is now DOES lead to a lot of repetition. However it is very different from the repetition we have in DOA in terms of an optimal air-juggle, a wall-juggle, or a danger-zone juggle. Repeating any setups that lead to these usually gets you blown up (unless you are a non-adapting scrub then I would spam the same setup away over and over). In addition, the net result damage is far less than what could be achieved with burst, particularly if you were away from a danger zone.
The thing about burst is that it not only guarantees a launcher, but also a Power blow. From there, all hell can break loose.
Burst > Powerblow > Dangerzone > Follow-up juggle. This is the simplest scenario I can see happening over and over, particularly if burst can be done so early by simply just repeating a move. But even when you take out the Powerblow factor and simply go for a guaranteed launcher Its still stupid as no game has a stun that long (since you like comparing other games).
One concept I had in mind was:
Burst > free step for repositioning > fast wall slam (like Hitomi's <>P for example) > air juggle.
(this can also apply to dangerzone setups)
Having that sort of luxury mid screen, and mid combo for that matter, is just stupid....... or is it ??
Then you have Tag. For those who don't give a shit about tag can move along but I personally think this is a system that should not be overlooked, especially since we are up against TTT2. They wanted to create a way to make Tag Powerblows usable. (for those who don't know this yet, a tag powerblow can be done when both characters on a team are down to 50% health). Now I was thinking, what the hell is the point of that if I can simply do the following ?
Burst Cancel into tag > reduced health Teammate powerblow. If anything, this is even far easier to apply as the length of the burst stun would be even larger due to he tag cancel. You don't even need the tag powerblow concept.
I also liked the fact that a Powerblow was a high risk/ high reward move. Having a bust completely eliminates that concept. Something I personally am not very fond of.
Before this discussion turns into a rage war, I do like to point out that I do see some potential in burst. But as it is now, I think its too easy to get to with the double poke. At the same time however, I can see how the mind game can come into play with this, where the defender has to pace himself and go for a slow escape to completely avoid the threat of the second burst and capitalize on the punish with a throw (which will probably be the ideal punish scenario in the end), or to wait for the right moment to hold (which is not impossible as the burst moves tend to be slow and the burst itself is not a sit down stun). This eliminates reckless reactions in fact so I DO actually see good in this.
Also, the fact that the majority of dangerzones only happen once in a match. This reduces the repetition factor....slightly. I have also taken this into consideration.
One fix I was thinking of was to make the powerblow damage less when connected with burst, as opposed to the damage from a raw powerblow. Since the powerblow can pretty much setup for other types of damage anyway, I see this as a good fix for having it guaranteed.
Again, like i said before, I do have faith in Shimbori and Co. and I am certain they will take things like this into consideration. And I do see this from both its positive and negative side.
As I stand now, I am neither with nor against it.
I still feel weird about the fact that repeating the burst move twice will grant you Critical burst (yes, I do know this is shortcut to exceeding threshold). but the outcome is far too deadly for this. As far as I see it this is an exploit. In this one condition I have suggested several times that if a move was repeated twice (regardless of what move it is), it should always lead to knockdown or reset. But I also DO see the value of having it in, which I will explain near the end of this comment.
Critical Burst as it is now DOES lead to a lot of repetition. However it is very different from the repetition we have in DOA in terms of an optimal air-juggle, a wall-juggle, or a danger-zone juggle. Repeating any setups that lead to these usually gets you blown up (unless you are a non-adapting scrub then I would spam the same setup away over and over). In addition, the net result damage is far less than what could be achieved with burst, particularly if you were away from a danger zone.
The thing about burst is that it not only guarantees a launcher, but also a Power blow. From there, all hell can break loose.
Burst > Powerblow > Dangerzone > Follow-up juggle. This is the simplest scenario I can see happening over and over, particularly if burst can be done so early by simply just repeating a move. But even when you take out the Powerblow factor and simply go for a guaranteed launcher Its still stupid as no game has a stun that long (since you like comparing other games).
One concept I had in mind was:
Burst > free step for repositioning > fast wall slam (like Hitomi's <>P for example) > air juggle.
(this can also apply to dangerzone setups)
Having that sort of luxury mid screen, and mid combo for that matter, is just stupid....... or is it ??
Then you have Tag. For those who don't give a shit about tag can move along but I personally think this is a system that should not be overlooked, especially since we are up against TTT2. They wanted to create a way to make Tag Powerblows usable. (for those who don't know this yet, a tag powerblow can be done when both characters on a team are down to 50% health). Now I was thinking, what the hell is the point of that if I can simply do the following ?
Burst Cancel into tag > reduced health Teammate powerblow. If anything, this is even far easier to apply as the length of the burst stun would be even larger due to he tag cancel. You don't even need the tag powerblow concept.
I also liked the fact that a Powerblow was a high risk/ high reward move. Having a bust completely eliminates that concept. Something I personally am not very fond of.
Before this discussion turns into a rage war, I do like to point out that I do see some potential in burst. But as it is now, I think its too easy to get to with the double poke. At the same time however, I can see how the mind game can come into play with this, where the defender has to pace himself and go for a slow escape to completely avoid the threat of the second burst and capitalize on the punish with a throw (which will probably be the ideal punish scenario in the end), or to wait for the right moment to hold (which is not impossible as the burst moves tend to be slow and the burst itself is not a sit down stun). This eliminates reckless reactions in fact so I DO actually see good in this.
Also, the fact that the majority of dangerzones only happen once in a match. This reduces the repetition factor....slightly. I have also taken this into consideration.
One fix I was thinking of was to make the powerblow damage less when connected with burst, as opposed to the damage from a raw powerblow. Since the powerblow can pretty much setup for other types of damage anyway, I see this as a good fix for having it guaranteed.
Again, like i said before, I do have faith in Shimbori and Co. and I am certain they will take things like this into consideration. And I do see this from both its positive and negative side.
As I stand now, I am neither with nor against it.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Attacks that cause CB are slower than usual. You can stagger out of stuns.
If both of these are true, and CB is not always possible if your opponent is choosing to stagger/SE, who gives a fuck?
I'm only going to be as repetitive as my opponent allows me to be. If my opponent is an idiot, I'm not going to change a thing nor should I have to. It is always 100% my opponents fault for anything they let me do. I do not care if Master dislikes seeing an attack more than once. If he has some fetish for doing every single move in his movelist during the duration of a match, good for him. Normal people don't play that way. This isn't some shitty action flick and I'm not trying to choreograph a unique fight every single time I'm beating down a scrub who is button mashing.
What I am going to do, is win. You heard "Play to win, not to do difficult moves"?
I say "Play to win, not to do a variety of stupid shit."
Furthermore, his idea of giving more CB's on every hit level is harmful as hell to the metagame. CB, as it is now, is a threatening bottleneck of intent. It's good when you have only one way per character of pulling it off because it makes defense logical and enforces game theory. I can choose to defend against my opponents one CB option knowing that if he pulls it off and I get PB into a dangerzone it's instant death, but I could still take a regular launch and live.
This way it's not a complete guess, because I have dedicated myself to not getting smashed by the most painful option possible. Master's methodology would remove any use of logic from the equation, thereby enabling random blitzkrieg offense.... and returning a stupid amount of DOA 4 style guessing to the table, albeit with a much bigger emphasis on offense.
To that I say, no fucking way. One CB per character is good. It's a good tool with a strong set of drawbacks. Removing those drawbacks would make it insane.
If both of these are true, and CB is not always possible if your opponent is choosing to stagger/SE, who gives a fuck?
I'm only going to be as repetitive as my opponent allows me to be. If my opponent is an idiot, I'm not going to change a thing nor should I have to. It is always 100% my opponents fault for anything they let me do. I do not care if Master dislikes seeing an attack more than once. If he has some fetish for doing every single move in his movelist during the duration of a match, good for him. Normal people don't play that way. This isn't some shitty action flick and I'm not trying to choreograph a unique fight every single time I'm beating down a scrub who is button mashing.
What I am going to do, is win. You heard "Play to win, not to do difficult moves"?
I say "Play to win, not to do a variety of stupid shit."
Furthermore, his idea of giving more CB's on every hit level is harmful as hell to the metagame. CB, as it is now, is a threatening bottleneck of intent. It's good when you have only one way per character of pulling it off because it makes defense logical and enforces game theory. I can choose to defend against my opponents one CB option knowing that if he pulls it off and I get PB into a dangerzone it's instant death, but I could still take a regular launch and live.
This way it's not a complete guess, because I have dedicated myself to not getting smashed by the most painful option possible. Master's methodology would remove any use of logic from the equation, thereby enabling random blitzkrieg offense.... and returning a stupid amount of DOA 4 style guessing to the table, albeit with a much bigger emphasis on offense.
To that I say, no fucking way. One CB per character is good. It's a good tool with a strong set of drawbacks. Removing those drawbacks would make it insane.
AKNova7
Active Member
Games should NOT be balanced on difficulty, imo. Ever. Because people find exploits, and you have to assume that they will.
Look, guys. I'm sorry, but DOA being a purely Meta-Balanced DOA game just won't be fun at all, only competitively solid. DOA should definitely be a 3 combo game, not a 2 combo game. The links at full speed are quite fast, and very easy to accomplish. For that, DOA probably shouldn't be a two-mistake game. The stun system also means the game shouldn't be a 2 combo game. The stun system is more flawed than the rest of the systems in the entire game combined. We should probably fix the way stuns work if we want to improve the metagame.
Basing the game on slow escape is a really bad idea as well, imo. I really don't think the game's non-offensive mechanics are good enough to matter.
It's not only not too late, but basing the majority of the game's stuns on slow escape is just an awful idea. To say the very least.
I agree with this totally which is why I also DO see value in it like I explained in my earlier post.
I think its too late for any major changes at this stage anyway.
Lets see how it plays out. This is a whole new Team ninja and a whole new direction for the game.
Right now I am neither with nor against bursts.
The way I see it right now, this can turn out to be either a horrible exploit, or a new layer of mind game.
We'll see....
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Slow Escaping doesnt get you out of everything though. It works on sitdown stuns to avoid Bayman's CB, sure. If I was to do a quick launch though, I'd get you every time. How many free launches will someone give me before they decide to switch it up and and open themselves up to that CB?
There's the metagame.
And just how many chances out of this situation are you asking for? You want a 3 hit to combo game? You already have more ways out than any other fighter. You could have avoided the first stun. You could have countered the second sit-down stun before it happened. You could have slow-escaped the sit down after it happened to avoid the CB.
That's three. THREE already.
And Bayman achieves CB faster than any other character!!
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Then slow escape or fucking counter it! I'm getting tired of you whining like a little bitch about something that isn't even a big deal. You see it as a exploit? Last I recall an exploit is gaining an unfair advantage over another player. Given the information we have you CAN do a slow escape and you CAN use a defense hold before they throw out the attack for the second time. So please tell me HOW THE FUCK is it an exploit if you have OPTIONS to defend against it?
Seriously GTFO and stop whining like a little bitch. Grow some fucking balls. I swear I need to do what DrDogg did and put your ass on ignore. Reading the stupidity in your posts gives me a fucking headache.
The entire point is to make the game competitively solid. Casuals/Scrubs are not going to know the damn difference and it sure as hell hasn't stopped them from playing other fighters. Even with all these changes DoA is still WAY more casual friendly than any other fighter game out there.
AKNova7
Active Member
*3 Combo to kill game, not 3 hit to combo game. Regardless, I don't really believe in the ways given to escape the combo, honestly, for the most part to begin with. What I meant, is I don't think it'd be good to balance a game on a shake mechanic. To be honest, I feel certain fundamentals with DOA just aren't there to support this game in general, if you know what I mean. There's bigger issues that should be addressed if bringing up the offense to this level is expected.
I would like to congratulate you for being an utter moron that fails at having a conversation.
If you read the comment all the way to the end you would realize that I did in fact mention all what you were raging about. Instead of making a total fool out of yourself and shouting with rage, I suggest you learn to actually read first.
I don't care what happened in your past, and how you were shut down by ignorant scrubs, or raped by an army of badgers. This is a different time and a different game. Learn to talk like a normal person and hold a discussion, just like Rikuto does (even though we may disagree at times). Cursing left and right does not make you correct, nor does it support any opinion you may have. In fact it makes you look like total idiot.
As for "POTENTIAL" exploit, yes when you burst there's nothing the opponent can do, hence "POTENTIAL" exploit. I'm not talking about pre-burst, but the burst itself and the consequences thereafter. This is why I feel a bit concerned regarding getting it too early with a double burst, but I am not 100% against it if you knew how to read.
Oh yeah, the ignore option is there. Feel free to use it. Strap on some "Always" while you're at it, because you seem to be PMSing all over the place.
AKNova7
Active Member
The entire point is to make the game solid on all levels, and a couple tweaks here and there isn't going to do that. The system has SERIOUS flaws, and they likely need to be fixed before the game can be as solid as we want it to anyway. No matter how many little things we tweak, the system will still be broken without being addressed PROPERLY. Even worse, you guys seeing all these little tools that are very powerful and wanting everyone buffed UP to that level will make it worse. Instead of asking for tools to compensate the problem, just go fix the problem.
The problem is the STUN SYSTEM, and the tracking nature/string delay of the attacks. All these things have refused to move, and there's a reason why in many other fighters, the stun system isn't usable off a large amount of moves in the moveset.
Fix
The Stun System
Move Unsafety
String Delay
Free Canceling
Tracking
Sidestepping
Offensive Damage.
and then, last but not least..and by last, I mean LAST. (In order of steps to acheive, not most important. Because this without the rest would be absolutely ridiculous.)
Holding out of stuns.
In DOA4, the biggest problem was that defense was too strong because the counter system netted too much damage. In this game, they nerfed hold damage, which was a deserved significant defensive nerf. The problem is they also buffed offense, leading to very powerful offensive combos and setups. What needed to happen, is they needed to nerf defense overall, but buff some of the parts that weren't holds, just like they gave new tools to offense. This is where sidestepping would come in. Unfortunately, that failed to happen, and they continued to buff offense, when big issues with it need to be fixed.
Tracking is a huge problem still in DOA, Offensive moves are still hilariously unsafe most of the time, forcing you to use string delay, which is offset by the free canceling technique to make the game simply stupid. Having stuns on HCB a lot of the time doesn't help either and is made worse by the string delay system. Even worse yet is the hilarious amounts of damage you can get from this scenario. The system just gets worse and worse, and even with the suggestions of the competitive body, this game is still just going to be a fraction of a competitive game without some serious changes. It won't be balanced, or anywhere close. Just a battle of the best tools.
Besides, you thinking non-competitive players won't know the difference is just incorrect.
PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but I'm just dying of laughter.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
All valid points, AK, with one simple reality barring this from happening.
Out of time.
The stun system, she is just too large of a beast to not tackle from the very start and DOA 5 is getting pushed out the door in a very quick manner. Hysterically, the bandaid solution of CB's and unholdable stuns still makes the game infinitely more playable than its predecessor, so we're pushing it because it's what realistically can be done in this timeframe.
So for future reference, I do not disagree with a lot of what you said.... but it just can't be done at this stage.
Out of time.
The stun system, she is just too large of a beast to not tackle from the very start and DOA 5 is getting pushed out the door in a very quick manner. Hysterically, the bandaid solution of CB's and unholdable stuns still makes the game infinitely more playable than its predecessor, so we're pushing it because it's what realistically can be done in this timeframe.
So for future reference, I do not disagree with a lot of what you said.... but it just can't be done at this stage.
Scott
Member
=[
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Don't think it's the end of the world Scott, it isn't. DOA 5 can be a very playable, very good game in addition to being fun eyecandy... but it has got to push the unholdable stun/CB concept to its limit for that to happen.
Ideally, it could be made better by attacking the stun system directly, but like I said... out of time. This will work too, and it's the best solution given the time frame. It has to be accepted and pushed or we may just end up with a final product that kept back-peddling straight into mediocrity due to uncertainty from the devs and the fanbase.
Ideally, it could be made better by attacking the stun system directly, but like I said... out of time. This will work too, and it's the best solution given the time frame. It has to be accepted and pushed or we may just end up with a final product that kept back-peddling straight into mediocrity due to uncertainty from the devs and the fanbase.
AKNova7
Active Member
I guess we'll have to wait for DOA5.1/5.2... As someone else said, hopefully they won't burn all their patches on some stupidness instead of fixing what was necessary in the game.