3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold

[Allan Paris]

We're not really talking about, lately. Someone asked about the holding points in the new game, that got answered. Then a trolling statement was made (lol). That's pretty much it. Good to have your idea in here, though, I think this was mentioned before, by you, maybe?

 

[Matt Ponton]

Sup HDT, nice to see you again.

 

[HDTran]

We're not really talking about, lately. Someone asked the holding points in the new game, that got answered. Then a trolling statement was made (lol). That's pretty much it. Good to have your idea in here, though, I think this was mentioned before, by you, maybe?

Oh I see, sorry about this. I read the entire thread and while it's been interesting, I'm not sure where in the process we are/how much interaction with have with the team/how much they care. But I think we should just make a proposal sheet/page/doc (1 page, nothing long) and hand it over to them to consider these options.

Sup HDT, nice to see you again.

Hey Sorwah, good to see you holding down the community still, good stuff.

 

[Allan Paris]

Oh I see, sorry about this. I read the entire thread and while it's been interesting, I'm not sure where in the process we are/how much interaction with have with the team/how much they care. But I think we should just make a proposal sheet/page/doc (1 page, nothing long) and hand it over to them to consider these options.

Oh it's no problem.

This has been done a couple times. Just recently (a month ago) they were taking feedback officially, that's over now. I don't know if they are willing to take in feedback as of now. TN does come here and visit, so maybe they will see your post on the matter.

 

[HDTran]

Oh I see, that's unfortunate. I think if we stopped debating over semantics and provide just a unified front (in terms of proposed options), even if the game is far in development--it would go a long way. Everyone here who is a proponent of the offensive player really only wants one thing, "good guaranteed" options after connecting. Hell, the worst version of the hold system can be in, but if guaranteed damage means 90% optimal damage and avoiding that guessing game entirely in stun, I don't think most would care as much.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

I thank you for answering to my question and I'm sorry if I resurrected a dead(?) thread.

If I understood correctly, in this thread many here are suggesting to remove the capability of Holding during the Stun status... I mean... FOR REAL? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the Hold system to Hold-what-you-can't-Guard which equals to Holding while Stun? Have there been any DOA game in the series that didn't allow Holding in that situation? Bear with me, I've only played DOA3.2, DOA2U, DOAOL and not the rest.
After all that is what somehow makes DOA unique from the rest of fighting games that allows Holding attacks too...

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA1 didn't allow holds in stun. DOA++, DOA2, and DOA3 allowed holds in stun but either made them difficult to perform, low damaging, or prevented the hold in other ways.

 

[DrDogg]

After all that is what somehow makes DOA unique from the rest of fighting games that allows Holding attacks too...

Which is the same reason DOA has not had a good competitive scene.

 

[Rikuto]

I thank you for answering to my question and I'm sorry if I resurrected a dead(?) thread.

If I understood correctly, in this thread many here are suggesting to remove the capability of Holding during the Stun status... I mean... FOR REAL? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the Hold system to Hold-what-you-can't-Guard which equals to Holding while Stun? Have there been any DOA game in the series that didn't allow Holding in that situation? Bear with me, I've only played DOA3.2, DOA2U, DOAOL and not the rest.
After all that is what somehow makes DOA unique from the rest of fighting games that allows Holding attacks too...

DOA 1 did not allow it, and it was only usable as a 6 point system in DOA++. DOA 2 had attacks that were hold resistant, but not enough to make it a solid game. DOA 3 had these as well as guaranteed launchers off of wall hits and various guaranteed setups into those wall hits. So far it has been the best game. DOA 4 stripped all of those strategic elements away and made the game total guessing in every situation, and it has been the worst game.

The hold has always been seen as too powerful, even when the damage is low. Denying an attack is denying victory, and doing it with such mindless ease is a bad thing for a competitive game. Removing the hold from stun is one answer to the problem. The other is to expand in the direction that DOA 3 went and create more situations where the hold is useless, but others where it is relevant and fair risk to face.

The trick is finding what is really fair, and a lot of DOA players have a somewhat distorted view of how fair the hold system actually is right now because they've never actually taken a look at the math behind it.

Check out this thread I made to give you a better idea.

http://freestepdodge.com/threads/actual-odds-of-beating-the-threshold.735/


Remember, DOA being unique is only a good thing if that which makes the game unique isn't horribly flawed. There is a reason it has a very poor reputation competitively, and it's not based on total ignorance.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Thanks for all the replies, you guys are the reason why I post on FSD instead of DOAWorld lol... still can't imagine playing with such system, lots of changes should be done to make it work properly.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Not just competitively but even casual gamers know DOA as the "titty fighter with no depth." Allowing you to escape every situation scot-free with the hold is why the game is considered to have "no depth." How am I supposed to create scary offensive situations if the opponent can escape everything so easily?

 

[grap3fruitman]

Download MAME and DOA++ and try this system. I want the stuns to be like DOA++ with the ability to hold during them removed.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Not just competitively but even casual gamers know DOA as the "titty fighter with no depth." Allowing you to escape every situation scot-free with the hold is why the game is considered to have "no depth." How am I supposed to create scary offensive situations if the opponent can escape everything so easily?

Mash Dragon Kick (unblockable) and Dragon Gunnarzz (offensive throw) with Jann Lee like me. Fairly safe tactic haha
It's fun how gdlk moves in fighting moves have the word Dragon in it, like Ryu's Dragon Punch from Street Fighter lel

 

[grap3fruitman]

Those are the types of things that made the older DOA games better. You had those situations where you couldn't hold.

DOA3.1/3.2? The Dragon Gunner guarantees a .
DOA2/3? Jann Lee's mid-punch guarantees a while-rising .
DOA2/3? Jann Lee's on water/ice? Unholdable lift stun.
DOA3? to an opponent with their back to a wall? will reset the opponent if hit while they're sliding down the wall.

These are just a few reasons the older DOA games are more competitive than DOA4 and Dimensions.

 

[WAZAAAAA]

Damn yes, I've noticed how DOA4 sucks compared to the previous games just by watching videos of it, it seems that they have removed many game elements that required actual KNOWLEDGE of the game mechanics. I saw from a video about 20 minutes ago that in DOA4 after a mid-punch throw with Jann Lee the enemy can FUCKING HOLD, there's no guaranteed hit, how fucked up is that?

 

[Kronin]

Wow, we're still talking about this stuff. Realistically, now that the channels are open, I think we should approach it in the following manner:

1. Ask the team if they're willing to consider a game where holds out of stun was gone entirely.
2. If they answer no (and it likely is "no"), then we can proceed to discuss how to minimize its impact so that guaranteed options are favored/possible. My proposed solution: You can only hold after the 1st hit in the stun, meaning launching after stunning is guaranteed. I can totally picture a DOA where you have solid guaranteed options that get you 80-90% optimal combo damage, but you may want to play the stun/hold game to get that last 10-20% damage. In that regard, the offensive player has a choice of choosing to take risk or not, perfectly acceptable and it may create hype moments similar to resets in other games. Of course this hinges on reducing the frequency of stuns a tad.

I like this solution, I think could be a great compromise for the presence of holds in stun and guaranteed hits in the game, and at the same time could also give an help to the question about the number of points in the system holds making the choice 3 or 4 more irrilevant (if I'm wrong with my conclusions correct me, please).

 

[virtuaPAI]

The arguing of hold points is not really a factor with the problems holds had. With Doa4, it has been the frequency, and the virtual limitlessness of hold usage. Once holds are relegated to being merely a defense tool, the balance of the game will be restored. In other words, attacks and throws need to regain the priority it once had over holds.

 

[BlackOrochi]

I agree that adjusting both Hold Damage and Hold Recovery Time were issues to be dealt with, and they did deal with it. On the other hand, I strongly feel that the 4-pt hold system is designed for players who suffer from insecurities in their offense. If you are afraid of having your moves held by your opponent, then learn how to be less predictable. That's all. Team Ninja should have enhanced unpredictability by providing characters with more combo/move variations instead of making defenders pay for mediocre offensive players. Because that's what the 4-pt system does: Make defenders pay for mediocre offensive players.

 

[Rikuto]

I agree that adjusting both Hold Damage and Hold Recovery Time were issues to be dealt with, and they did deal with it. On the other hand, I strongly feel that the 4-pt hold system is designed for players who suffer from insecurities in their offense. If you are afraid of having your moves held by your opponent, then learn how to be less predictable. That's all. Team Ninja should have enhanced unpredictability by providing characters with more combo/move variations instead of making defenders pay for mediocre offensive players. Because that's what the 4-pt system does: Make defenders pay for mediocre offensive players.

Wrong.

http://freestepdodge.com/threads/actual-odds-of-beating-the-threshold.735/





In reality, it is rewarding the defender for guessing randomly like a jackass more than 70% of the time, according to the actual math.

Also, who's to say this is because of someones "insecurity" as an attacker? I could just as easily claim someone requires the hold system as a crutch because they are insecure about their own defense prior to getting hit.

 

[Baron West]

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who said this already but...

Tecmo could keep the holds out of stun...as long as they give each character more moves that launch/juggle on normal hit. That would probably make a lot of people happy. Casuals could go for the long, unsafe , potentially high damage stun juggles and competitive players would gravitate towards the less risky more consistent launch juggles.

DOA has always had moves that launch on normal hit. It wouldn't be that drastic of a change.