Relius Starkiller
Active Member
Because no one likes to read big walls of text. Consolidate your opinions or partition the paragraphs with pretty pictures.
3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold
- Thread starter MrMoon360
- Start date
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Reading is fundamental. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question. And certainly don't complain when people try to "destroy" the game you like. Oh fuck it, fine.
The collection of choices you make to get any kind of reasonable damage are at best a 50/50 (single strike launch) and at worst 16/84 playing the stun game (roughly) with human error being the only thing to help your odds. You can't do anything else in DOA to get damage, so it is effectively and truly a 50/50 unless you sabotage yourself.
People can call it whatever they want and play the semantics game with what I've written, but thats how the game is indeed played so its best to get into the mentality of calling it what it is.
-- 4 point is indeed better than 3 point, however I would like to point out that the 3 sided dice example I gave was in fact using a 4 point DOA system from a metaphor standpoint as you only need to guess between low, mid punch and mid kick to avoid every option in the game. It is, as I've demonstrated, completely broken.
-- By short window, the game would need to make it SEVERELY shorter, as in like 4-6 frames for an active window. Making it 10+ honestly is a ridiculously huge window that any decent fighting game player is going to be able to abuse the hell out of just as easily as they can abuse 18-20 frame windows. 10 frames is more than enough to use on both reaction, anticipation, and flatout guessing. 4-6 frames is enough to use on reaction, or anticipation. It can't be used effectively to guess though, you'll just get your ass kicked most of the time. It also justifies the hell out of something like a counter izuna getting big 100+ damage, because you really did have to call your opponent out on that for it to work.
-- Remove holds from critical, absolutely solid, yea? So what causes a holdable stun then? Fast jabs? Ok at first this seems like a good idea, but hold your horses because there is where things become very flawed when you're not analyzing the situation carefully.
I do a move that puts me at -7 on block. My opponent responds with a 10 frame jab. His jab effectively comes out in 3 frames, which means that even with a 6 frame window to hold I can catch him perfectly every time he tries this as its the perfect trap leading into it. And that's totally legit. Problem is that now the situation is actually a pressure situation in disguise as disadvantage, we are feeding right back into the chances of accumulative failure with this being the first part. Even if he gets the stun, jabs only give lighter stuns which mean there is less time to attack the stunned character, also meaning it becomes painfully obvious exactly when it is you need to use your counter to have a shot of getting out.
So basically, even with all of those changes, nothing changed. You're still sitting on 2 chances to fail, making the situation worse than a 50/50.
Way to ignore people's posts stating that you can't just remove holds from stun without addressing other items like the stun system and string delay. Who suggested the idea of removing slow escaping? I think it needs to be toned down to DOA2/3 levels but not removed. You ignore people's actual posts and then argue against points people didn't make. It looks like you're really taking after Master.
You're asking for more #-in-1s while suggesting that you can hold out of normal stuns, which isn't true. Normal stuns are the reason we have #-in-1s, because you can't hold out of them. Critical stuns are 99% of the stuns in DOA4.0 and can all be held out of.
Since you like nice, simple lists here's one I made a little while back:
1) Tone down stuns further (potentially to DOA++ levels)
2) Remove counters from stun
3) Remove ability to delay every single string and limit it to very specific character/moves (Ayane's:Link:
4) Add initial frames to counters
5) Shorten active frames from counters
Boom! Competitive viable DOA5. There's still some minor tweaks (input buffer system) but these are the five major points I would stress to Team Ninja, and am currently trying to.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Couple of quick responses. I think having a 10 frame active window would be a really good compromise compared to where we are now because most jabs are 10 frames and allowing for human reaction being a little slower in reality than the 0 frame to activate, you get a system where jabs will beat counters the vast majority of the time.
Remember even small tweaks can have big effects.
I like grapes list also as its kind of the same thing to remove counters from criticals only, as it is to fo his suggestion to reduce the amount of moves that cause stun and make any stun unholdable. It kind of turns any stun you get into a critical.
So, much alike, driving to the same thing.
What I disagree with is adding startup to the counters, that's not necessary with a lowered active window and reworked stun/critical system, keep it as intuitive as possible
Remember even small tweaks can have big effects.
I like grapes list also as its kind of the same thing to remove counters from criticals only, as it is to fo his suggestion to reduce the amount of moves that cause stun and make any stun unholdable. It kind of turns any stun you get into a critical.
So, much alike, driving to the same thing.
What I disagree with is adding startup to the counters, that's not necessary with a lowered active window and reworked stun/critical system, keep it as intuitive as possible
help im too high/dumb to read hold my hand
Reducing the hold window might work, I guess. Removing Hi-counter might help, but since it's a big part of the stun system, people would complain. The number of holds won't make a difference as long as they don't fix the whole thing altogether.
Reducing the hold window might work, I guess. Removing Hi-counter might help, but since it's a big part of the stun system, people would complain. The number of holds won't make a difference as long as they don't fix the whole thing altogether.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I just told you how jabs couldn't beat the counter. Anytime you are at a disadvantage after a move, which is the vast majority of the time in any fighting game and especially DOA, you are set up to counter successfully. And if you only give the ability to counter out of light stuns you are still forcing two dice rolls and screwing over the attacker in probability.
And who exactly are we supposed to be "compromising" with? The people who don't have any valid point of view and can't even be bothered to read? The fanboys/girls on twitter who don't have any interest in the competitive scene and will drop the game after a couple weeks? Team Ninjas personal vision for a completely broken game?
Typically when you are willing to offer a compromise it is because the other side has a valid point of view as well.
Here, they don't.
HayabusaKawasaki
New Member
ITT people want to turn DOA into Tekken ie. a shitty juggle fest where you get to spend 5 minutes watching long combos, regardless who gets hit. Simon Sez sure is deep!
ps. people keep bringing up the tournament scene, the same scene that shits on any game that isn't made by Capcom. You're delusional if you think axing holds altogether in stun will somehow make these guys respect DOA. They do that, and they'll find some other excuse, usually "it doesn't play like SF/Tekken, it sucks!"
ps. people keep bringing up the tournament scene, the same scene that shits on any game that isn't made by Capcom. You're delusional if you think axing holds altogether in stun will somehow make these guys respect DOA. They do that, and they'll find some other excuse, usually "it doesn't play like SF/Tekken, it sucks!"
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Most of us here have been fans of doa for over 10 years. Most of us here are asking for features that already existed in a previous doa title, all we want is that to be improved upon to make doa a more competitive game, not the crap fest we got with doa4.
This site is pretty much the competitive community, don't like it? Go to doaworld where they talk about Kasumi's underwear.
btw, I hate Tekken, but I'd kill to have DoA5 be a solid fighter like Tekken is.
HayabusaKawasaki
New Member
Yeah, a game where every character pretty much plays the same sure is solid. Dash back and forth, fishing for launchers, then doing an absurdly long juggle into the wall, rinse and repeat.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Way to make a vague description of a fighting game you have no knowledge of. This EXACT same statement can be said about high level doa4 play except everyone's fishing for whiff punishments.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
You don't like Tekken, and you're welcome to that opinion. However, Tekken is a game that has a very solid competitive scene. It is the best selling fighting game in the world. No one is saying they want DOA to be just like Tekken, we simply want DOA to take enough steps forward to be accepted by a larger portion of the greater FGC.
I should also point out that the way you're describing Tekken is so vague, that I could describe any fighting game, including DOA in almost the exact same way. If you're going to bash on the game, please have some real complaints that can be discussed at an intelligent level. There's no room comments like yours on this forum.
WAZAAAAA
Well-Known Member
I say that 4-point is better, considering that a great part of attacks are mid ones splitting them should be a good way to avoid mindless mid-punch holds spam. I also like the idea of making holds generally more difficult or less rewarding to perform.
Btw, I haven't played DOA5 alphas nor I've read all the 14 pages of this thread, but which system does DOA5 deploy at the moment, 3 or 4?
Btw, I haven't played DOA5 alphas nor I've read all the 14 pages of this thread, but which system does DOA5 deploy at the moment, 3 or 4?
The Alpha Demo uses the 3-point hold system.
9-point hold or you will not be getting my $60, Ninja Dog.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
You mean 6, right?
Bring back arcade style half circle motions for 4 point holds. I will play with that system, no joke.
HDTran
New Member
Wow, we're still talking about this stuff. Realistically, now that the channels are open, I think we should approach it in the following manner:
- Ask the team if they're willing to consider a game where holds out of stun was gone entirely.
- If they answer no (and it likely is "no"), then we can proceed to discuss how to minimize its impact so that guaranteed options are favored/possible. My proposed solution: You can only hold after the 1st hit in the stun, meaning launching after stunning is guaranteed. I can totally picture a DOA where you have solid guaranteed options that get you 80-90% optimal combo damage, but you may want to play the stun/hold game to get that last 10-20% damage. In that regard, the offensive player has a choice of choosing to take risk or not, perfectly acceptable and it may create hype moments similar to resets in other games. Of course this hinges on reducing the frequency of stuns a tad.