Throw Break Suggestions

[HaJiN]

What about a system where:
- Throws can be escaped
- All throws except normal throws become inescapable during a counter
- OHs can be beaten out with a throw (nothing new here)
- Grappling characters have an inescapable 7 frame throw (instead of 6 frames like now)
- Low throws are inescapable


Virtua Fighter championed the system where you input the last direction that your opponent inputted to perform a throw in order to escape it. This allowed you to evade/throw escape, and input about 3 different throw escapes while evading. DOA should be able to do the same thing. I mean, the evade throw escape does exist in DOA, but only for normal throws.

low throws being inescapable makes sense to me because when someone guards your low, you deserve to be low thrown. That, and the throw escape for a low throw would be too easy to perform, and the situation to escape the low throw would become too obvious. Inescapable low throws are a reward for good defense.

Thoughts?

 

[Tulkas]

If they just tighten the escape window and make mashing out of it less effective, that should be sufficient.

I've thought pressing escape before escape windows could lose stage escape of combo throw. Opinions?

 

[Tulkas]

"Whiffed" holds should be punishable. Very, very punishable. Especially by grapplers, who rely on that system more heavily than other characters do. The threat of big, guaranteed damage needs to be present to deter people from hold spamming. Thus, holds will become more defensive and only used as a "read" rather than a "blind guess."

I strongly agree.

Making it more difficult for the defender than the attacker and requiring the defender to know their opponent's movelist to better fight against them? Sounds good to me.

It sounds bad to me. Having to know every commands for every throw in game makes no sense to me. Worse: seems insane to me. Average commad throws per character is near (I gess really over) 10. With a cast of 30 chars it supose it needed to learn about 300 comands. A single character full move list is around 100 commands. So that's why it seems insane to me.

 

[DR2K]

That doesn't give the same benefit as a throw breaking system however. I could block or crouch block, but that makes me vulnerable to other types of attacks. Throw breaks don't. It's defensive guessing, but its done in such a way that its effectively damage control instead of pure randomness. Your suggestion simply means I am taking a bigger risk in a situation that frankly wasn't even earned by my opponent in the first place.

Of course, getting rid of movement prior to Get Ready, Fight! Would go a ways towards legitimizing the situation, but it would still be rather shallow.

What would your opinion on invincible moves be? (Like in Tekken Rev) or DPs in SFIV to get out of vortex?

 

[Tulkas]

Virtua Fighter championed the system where you input the last direction that your opponent inputted to perform a throw in order to escape it. This allowed you to evade/throw escape, and input about 3 different throw escapes while evading. DOA should be able to do the same thing. I mean, the evade throw escape does exist in DOA, but only for normal throws.

Should DOA be able to do the same thing really?

Almost every person which propose command throws escape makes a reference to other fighting game. I think DOA have choosen a very unique path to go: the triangle system, which also is a very hard one. TS have lead DOA to have mechanics which have resulted very controversial (especially to impatient/rigid-minded other fighting games players). For better or worse, applicability of other fighting games mechanics to DOA is not an straight forward thing because TS balance is both: very difficult to meet and very easy to ruin. So I am convinced command throws escape implementation in DOA should be thougt out very very carefully.

What a succesfull block should reward?
What a succesfull high counter throw should reward?
What a succesfull counter throw sould reward?

Game balance suposes clear answers for those questions (among many others).

 

[Brute]

Average commad throws per character is near (I guess really over) 10.

And how many of those are really used? You essentially have this to remember for each character:
1) Highest damage inescapable throw
2) Highest damage escapable combo throw
3) Best reset throw
4) Best crouch throw
5) Offensive holds
A system like the one I proposed might actually encourage people to use more of the character's actual throws.

With a cast of 30 chars it supose it needed to learn about 300 comands. A single character full move list is around 100 commands. So that's why it seems insane to me.

In order to fight anyone who's even slightly above "absolute scrub level" I have to remember the basics of their character's frame data (which is way more extensive than their throw repertoire) to know when something's safe, unsafe, ducking, etc. And that's stacked on top of simply knowing their basic string mix-ups, attack frame speed and various other options.
And compared to that, which we already do, memorizing some throw inputs is really pretty easy.

 

[HaJiN]

Should DOA be able to do the same thing really?

Almost every person which propose command throws escape makes a reference to other fighting game. I think DOA have choosen a very unique path to go: the triangle system, which also is a very hard one. TS have lead DOA to have mechanics which have resulted very controversial (especially to impatient/rigid-minded other fighting games players). For better or worse, applicability of other fighting games mechanics to DOA is not an straight forward thing because TS balance is both: very difficult to meet and very easy to ruin. So I am convinced command throws escape implementation in DOA should be thougt out very very carefully.

What a succesfull block should reward?
What a succesfull high counter throw should reward?
What a succesfull counter throw sould reward?

Game balance suposes clear answers for those questions (among many others).

Virtua Fighter is the most respected fighter because it is complicated where it needs to be, yet fair and balanced in many respects. The method of being able to input three throw escapes in a simple manner is enough to raise the learning curve of the game, separating the skilled from the unskilled players, while at the same time not making the game unnecessarily overcomplicated. That's why you should be able to input the last direction of the throw instead of the whole command for the throw to escape it. If I don't use that character, I shouldn't have to learn all their throw commands. DOA's system most closely resembles VF than any other fighter. It has many techniques borrowed from the game. This is why it makes sense to go this route instead of introducing a throw escape technique that would either add no depth at all, or be too complicated to implement effectively. The triangle system may be unique, but it is imperfect. If anything, because DOA has more of an element of chance due to its countering system, players tend to be more impatient in comparison to players of other 3d fighters such as Tekken or Virtua Fighter.

So let's say you can escape your opponent's throw by inputting the last command they pressed to execute the throw, and the throw button. Let's also assume that you can input between 2-3 throw escapes during recovery from a move, or during an evade. This would still add some degree of mix up to the game. Pressing T, 4T, and 6T during recovery from a move wouldn't escape all throws, and you would still be susceptible to Kasumi's 33T, for example.

And on another note, just as you cannot escape throws during a counter, the same should apply to advanced counters, to parries, and to the recovery frames applicable to any of these.

 

[Brute]

What a succesfull block should reward?

I hold a minority opinion in that it should actually reap a good reward. This deters mindless attacking and helps slower characters hold their own.

What a succesfull high counter throw should reward?

Damage. Lots and lots and lots of damage.
Even more damage if you're a grappler.

What a succesfull counter throw sould reward?

Slight damage and the ability to halt opponent's offense.

 

[HaJiN]

I hold a minority opinion in that it should actually reap a good reward. This deters mindless attacking and helps slower characters hold their own.

It seems like a good idea in theory, but what are you suggesting? Most fighters go the route of making a good portion of a character's moves have such long recovery on block that certain counter attacks are guaranteed during that recovery period. I wouldn't suggest that for DOA because it might make the game slower paced.

On a side note: I don't even know why we are suggesting throw escapes. TN does not believe in them. They want the game easy for beginners to learn, while allowing skilled players to also enjoy the game. I think TN believes that throw escapes would deter beginners from learning the game. Virtua Fighter sets the standard for the fighting game industry, is respected, and has a cult following, but the game is lacking in sales. TN may fear the same thing. It was an uphill battle already to get them to implement a 4 point countering system in DOA5. I remember at first they were insisting on 3, just as they had used in Dimensions.

 

[Brute]

It seems like a good idea in theory, but what are you suggesting? Most fighters go the route of making a good portion of a character's moves have such long recovery on block that certain counter attacks are guaranteed during that recovery period. I wouldn't suggest that for DOA because it might make the game slower paced.

I'm honestly okay with the way it is now if throw breaks were introduced. A lot of people complain about the excessive unsafety of most moves, but in my view the attacker is at fault if they attack recklessly or predictably and are blocked. Thus, they should be susceptible to some punishment.

It's funny to me that the same people who complain that blocking is underpowered also frequently complain that too many moves are unsafe on block.

On a side note: I don't even know why we are suggesting throw escapes. TN does not believe in them. They want the game easy for beginners to learn, while allowing skilled players to also enjoy the game. I think TN believes that throw escapes would deter beginners from learning the game. Virtua Fighter has sets the standard for the fighting game industry, is respected, and has a cult following, but the game is lacking in sales. TN may fear the same thing. It was an uphill battle already to get them to implement a 4 point countering system in DOA5. I remember at first they were insisting on 3, just as they had used in Dimensions.

So they should dumb themselves down to appeal to the masses? No thanks.

DOA has the potential to be a great, complex, and respected fighter while still netting in big sales through their excessive use of boobies. The casuals who give them those sales hardly even know how to play the game in its current state. Making it more complex won't change much for them.

 

[XxSakuraLuvaxX]

while still netting in big sales through their excessive use of boobies.

(sadly no excessive use of 'dat hayate n' ryu hayabusa- anyway)

Maybe for specifically, when trying to escape the izuna, if the defender inputs first, Ryu doesn't get the spinning version, just the normal drop?

 

[Brute]

(sadly no excessive use of 'dat hayate n' ryu hayabusa- anyway)

Maybe for specifically, when trying to escape the izuna, if the defender inputs first, Ryu doesn't get the spinning version, just the normal drop?

On HiC the Izuna should be unbreakable just as it is now.
Nerf the Izuna drop and Ryu becomes even less viable than he already is.

 

[Tulkas]

Virtua Fighter is the most respected fighter because it is complicated where it needs to be, yet fair and balanced in many respects.

Sure VF is very respected, but it also is very few played comparing to many other fighters. I bet it's also less sold than DOA. I guess it very few played due to being the most dificult figther. This could be a good example of how dificulty hinders success of a fighting game.

The method of being able to input three throw escapes in a simple manner is enough to raise the learning curve of the game, separating the skilled from the unskilled players, while at the same time not making the game unnecessarily overcomplicated. That's why you should be able to input the last direction of the throw instead of the whole command for the throw to escape it. If I don't use that character, I shouldn't have to learn all their throw commands.

Actual system (6 or more frames unescapable throws) promotes (clever) attacking and discourages turtling, however (I said clever because it) also discourages unsafe attacking and promotes string delay and fuzzy guarding. So this and timing distinguish well enough skilled players. Is really needed more separation from unskilled players?

DOA's system most closely resembles VF than any other fighter. It has many techniques borrowed from the game. This is why it makes sense to go this route instead of introducing a throw escape technique that would either add no depth at all, or be too complicated to implement effectively. The triangle system may be unique, but it is imperfect. If anything, because DOA has more of an element of chance due to its countering system, players tend to be more impatient in comparison to players of other 3d fighters such as Tekken or Virtua Fighter.

I think closely resembling another game is not enough reason to copy its technique(s). A enough reason would be that an specific technique will fit well in game, without breaking the system. Sure, I agree if another throw escape mechanic is introduced to DOA, it should be simple enough to avoid adding notable complexity. I'm convinced any new mechanic should improve game by all of these three: increasing fun of play, fine tuning balance and keeping simplicity.

 

[Rikuto]

What would your opinion on invincible moves be? (Like in Tekken Rev) or DPs in SFIV to get out of vortex?

Not a fan of them in any fighter, honestly. They have limited legitimacy in certain 2d fighters provided they are character specific, but even then I'm not really a fan.

Even if you make them as unsafe as possible you essentially make every frame advantage scenario pointless because there is always a 50/50 attached to it with no way to mix up, thanks to the threat of some completely invincible attack coming out and screwing you over. You shouldn't have to second guess yourself in every situation like that. We already have holds making us paranoid enough as it is.

 

[DR2K]

Not a fan of them in any fighter, honestly. They have limited legitimacy in certain 2d fighters provided they are character specific, but even then I'm not really a fan.

Even if you make them as unsafe as possible you essentially make every frame advantage scenario pointless because there is always a 50/50 attached to it with no way to mix up, thanks to the threat of some completely invincible attack coming out and screwing you over. You shouldn't have to second guess yourself in every situation like that. We already have holds making us paranoid enough as it is.

Yeah with holds it would be a bit much, but it would definitely put a stop to "dumb" offense, of course it should be limited to characters that would absolutely need them.

 

[Tulkas]

As discussed in many balance threads I'm very much in favour of a throw break system

There's no reason not to institute it in a modern fighter, yes in Doa you use throws to punish holds but this can be done on a curve and not be restricted by being slavish about the triangle system

I'll give two reason (in advance) of why not to insitute it: balance and identitiy. Why all fighters should behave the same? Why add a mechanic which will break balance? Just because other (modern) fighters use the mechanic...?

You get the punishment purpose of throws vs holds and the strategic benefits of throw breaks which in VF5FS in particular is a fantastic defensive layer

VF lacks triangle system and thus lacks universal holds. Those holds are more than a defensive layer, those are a whole defensive system against strikes. Against throws you have fuzzy guarding, fast strinking, crouching, crushing, crouch dashing, crouch side steping, jumping... for prevent of being thrown. Also, punishing unsafe attacks using throws is not so straight forward easy because unsafe attacks have very fast recovery animation which makes needed to buffer throw input many times and thus relays on good reads and knowledge of opponent. Of course all these just prevent incoming throws to connect but do not break already conected ones. Actual DOA is a fast paced game very bad suited for turtlers. DOA requires you fast do your best rock/paper/scissors bet in all situations. Throw breaks could change it radically. Do you want to DOA become slow paced?

 

[Brute]

snip

I feel like your argument is falling victim to a slippery slope fallacy. There is nothing to indicate that having to input a throw break in 1/15th of a second after it initiates makes the game "slow-paced."

 

[Tulkas]

Here's some ideas for throw break.

• You can throw break when you are neutral, guarding, moving, or having your throw taken over.
• You CANNOT throw break when you have failed a hold, in attack recovery, caught on the backdash or if it's an OH.

Seems reasonable.

I found your proposal being interesting. You have helped me to clearify my ideas a few. I found a big point I need to plead in favor of:

• You CANNOT throw break when you are guarding.

It's for keeping DOA fast paced through discouraging turtling.

Who knows if also a -20% revision could apply to throwing a guarding opponent. DOA is only game I've played which nerf low hits properties when you are stand guarding. This way turtling could be a less risky than it is now but still risky enough to keep DOA fast paced.

I feel like your argument is falling victim to a slippery slope fallacy. There is nothing to indicate that having to input a throw break in 1/15th of a second after it initiates makes the game "slow-paced."

Please excuse me, you are right. I was no considering specific case of escaping just in first 4 frames of throw animation. So now I have two questions: what does (frame advantage or anything) happen after de break? Would throw escape input be buffer-able from strike recovery state (u others)? Thank u for your remark.

 

[Berzerk!]

I'll give two reason (in advance) of why not to insitute it: balance and identitiy. Why all fighters should behave the same? Why add a mechanic which will break balance? Just because other (modern) fighters use the mechanic...?

First of all, Why should all fighters let the opponent block? Why should they all behave the same? That's a straw man argument and doesn't hold up to examination.

I think you misunderstand that this is NOT an aspect of the game that gives DOA its identity. Nobody says "oh, DOA, it's that game that's all about NO THROW BREAKS." Given its similar basis to other fighters, there's a certain standard to be met here, and it can be done in a DOA way.

It's deliberately ignorant to say it would break the balance of the game, as you've not listened to any of the informed commentary of the others in this discussion.

Throws as punishment for Holds in the triangle system can be maintained by making them UNBREAKABLE during HOLD RECOVERY. It's very simple.

During everything else, neutral game, normal blocking, sidestepping (how dare they add sidestep! That's not DOA, they cried), throw breaks would benefit the strategic depth of the game.

VF lacks triangle system and thus lacks universal holds. Those holds are more than a defensive layer, those are a whole defensive system against strikes. Against throws you have fuzzy guarding, fast strinking, crouching, crushing, crouch dashing, crouch side steping, jumping... for prevent of being thrown. Also, punishing unsafe attacks using throws is not so straight forward easy because unsafe attacks have very fast recovery animation which makes needed to buffer throw input many times and thus relays on good reads and knowledge of opponent. Of course all these just prevent incoming throws to connect but do not break already conected ones. Actual DOA is a fast paced game very bad suited for turtlers. DOA requires you fast do your best rock/paper/scissors bet in all situations. Throw breaks could change it radically. Do you want to DOA become slow paced?

DOA is NOT faced paced. VF5FS IS a fast paced game.

Which one has throw breaks?

In addition to all of the above things you mention, VF has these and does them better. It's fast, more fluid, its movement is more responsive, reliable. I do not want DOA to be slow paced, I want it to be faster. That's why I advocate lower life setting (240 for normal, but 270 is just acceptable) and more guaranteed damage situations.

In addition, I don't want it to be a brainless strike-stun-guess proposition only. They would be more able to introduce a variety of playstyles into the game if the defensive tools were up to scratch. Such as making grapplers more effective. What's that? Add throw breaks and grapplers get better?!

Yes - because it frees them up to make their other tools such as ground pickups, guard breaks, and general frame advantage more meaningful, so they aren't one-trick guess based characters hoping for a throw opening.
You can also then make the throws more effective.

And as for turtlers, you CANNOT turtle in VF because there are so many offensive AND defensive tools. You have to be actively dealing with your opponent all the time

Whereas in DOA you have huge stages and the ability to back away... back away... back away...

 

[virtuaPAI]

If throw breaks are going to be added for command throws, Frame advantage on block must be in the game, along with more usage of attacks as punishment. Infact, more frame advantage on hit needs to be implemented as well. This will promote the use of more defensive/offensive options in general...ie blocking and stepping, which could lead to the use of throw escaping and the like.