Throw Break Suggestions

[SolemnSaturn]

I'm not a expert in doa, just a casual players, but like you ideas Brute.
They will need to make significant changes in the mechanic of the game, but I think is a good idea.

 

[DR2K]

Breaks are not necessary imo. Thorws outside of HC damage are not a major issue.

Stun game and holds needs to be addressed more.

 

[crapoZK]

Here's some ideas for throw break.

• You can throw break when you are neutral, guarding, moving, or having your throw taken over.
• You CANNOT throw break when you have failed a hold, in attack recovery, caught on the backdash or if it's an OH.

Seems reasonable.

 

[Brute]

Why would OHs be unbreakable?

 

[Awesmic]

Why would OHs be unbreakable?

The grapplers, Jann Lee, and Leifang already have unbreakable offensive holds though. Granted, some are throw combos, but that's beside the point.

Maybe he's referring to offensive holds that become throw combos. I dunno.

 

[Brute]

The grapplers, Jann Lee, and Leifang already have unbreakable offensive holds though. Granted, some are throw combos, but that's beside the point.

Maybe he's referring to offensive holds that become throw combos. I dunno.

I'm aware. But nnow that we're proposing adding throw breaks, why would the same system not apply to OHs outside of HiC?

 

[MrMoon360]

Shit that looks oddly familiar.

From http://freestepdodge.com/threads/shit-we-lost.3070/page-5


Raansu
Sorry Raansu. I gotta disagree with you there. Throw punishment is only guaranteed in DOA as far as I know. Tekken, VF, ,even SF-- The mechanic is certainly fair in these instances. Especially since these games grant true frame advantage where a throw is pretty much guaranteed. Then there are multiple grabs with different throw break mechanics. In Tekken, they give you an arm to look at-- as in which side are they grabbing from and which two buttons. In VF, you guess your opponents habit and what damage can be accomplished with what throw -- front, back, neutral.
I honestly don't think that's stupid if other things can be achieved in these instances if they're anticipating any throw.

Rikuto
In DOA however, as the system stands, some characters would be destroyed if throw breaks were implemented. There's already plenty of guessing in stun; why put this guessing in throws when they're not guaranteed in most instances? How do the slow punish holds then? For this reason, I think the balance system in DOA is broken anyway. Throw breaks are logical answers in defense, but they wouldn't work well in DOA.

Think about Bass for a second. His most powerful throw would be rendered useless because that would be the throw escape everyone would buffer after a hold or while in disadvantage if they were smart. But Bass has to work tooth and nail to get a throw because that's his source of guaranteed damage this time around (he's slow as fuck, as you know). But if he had equal or considerable alternatives to guaranteed damage, this would be okay. But he doesn't, because DOA's balance system is insufferable.

MrMoon360, Monday at 12:42 AM (July 29th, 2013)

Thanks for the props. I seem to remember you advocating throw breaks in DOA.
You're such a profound FGC genius. That's why we're friends.

 

[Brute]

Nonono, we're keeping all of that "Shit we Lost" shit out of this thread or it'll be locked in half a second.

 

[MrMoon360]

Nonono, we're keeping all of that "Shit we Lost" shit out of this thread or it'll be locked in half a second.

True, true.

 

[crapoZK]

I'm aware. But nnow that we're proposing adding throw breaks, why would the same system not apply to OHs outside of HiC?

I just feel that the grapplers and only grapplers should have OHs on counter or higher which are unbreakable so that they aren't useless in their time being. The other non-grapplers that currently have OHs would have their OHs changed to regular throws so they can be broken. E.g. Dragon Gunner is a regular throw but Bass still has his OHs.

I should have added that in before, shouldn't I?...

 

[Brute]

I just feel that the grapplers and only grapplers should have OHs on counter or higher which are unbreakable so that they aren't useless in their time being. The other non-grapplers that currently have OHs would have their OHs changed to regular throws so they can be broken. E.g. Dragon Gunner is a regular throw but Bass still has his OHs.

I should have added that in before, shouldn't I?...

The whole grappler, non-grappler classification gets funky, though. For example, Lei Fang has a 3-part combo OH, Alpha has a standing, ducking and jumping OH, Jan Lee has Dragon Gunner, and now Ein looks like he'll have a random OH for seemingly no reason. This all from "strikers." Meanwhile Ryu "is a grappler" and gets the guillotine throw and 34H.

So which of these get unbreakable on NH, which get unbreakable on CH/HiC, and which get all breakable?

 

[crapoZK]

The whole grappler, non-grappler classification gets funky, though. For example, Lei Fang has a 3-part combo OH, Alpha has a standing, ducking and jumping OH, Jan Lee has Dragon Gunner, and now Ein looks like he'll have a random OH for seemingly no reason. This all from "strikers." Meanwhile Ryu "is a grappler" and gets the guillotine throw and 34H.

So which of these get unbreakable on NH, which get unbreakable on CH/HiC, and which get all breakable?

I would say that:

• Hayabusa keeps his stuff as unbreakable on NH
• Lei Fang's 3-part CT should be unbreakable on Counter or higher. Her 66T could be breakable and her other ones could be unbreakable on Hi-Counter.
• Ein, I dunno, same thing as Lei Lei? Unbreakable on counter or higher??? Thoughts?
• Jann Lee's Dragon Gunner should be breakable on all connections.
• Alpha could be breakable, but her OHs don't look like the type of throw that could get broken so I dunno about her.

Oh, and could I add that it would be a cool idea that the defender gets like a +3 advantage on a successful throw break? I dunno, just a suggestion.

 

[Rikuto]

Breaks are not necessary imo. Thorws outside of HC damage are not a major issue.

Stun game and holds needs to be addressed more.

Throws outside of HC are a massive issue, depending on the matchup.

Getting throw reset into juggles all day long from someone like Pai, for example. You can't realistically expect to beat her out, so you want to block, and therefore have to eat a throw. I can tank roll to avoid some of the likely catastrophes, not everyone can.

You also have situations where people like Helena can do the same thing once she gets a single bit of frame advantage. Plenty of others can do similar nonsense as well. Anyone with a throw reset into stun, launch, or frame advantage can effectively turn the game into a high-stakes guessing match with no single option favored over the other instead of a logical battle of knowledge where damage control can play a factor.


I don't like any situation where someone with no knowledge whatsoever can ride a single lucky guess straight to victory. As it stands right now, there are a good number of characters who can do exactly that. And before anyone tries to put themselves in a situation to say thats a good thing -- no, it isn't. Not when the circumstances that led to the situation had no way to logically avoid it in the first place.

MrMoon360

Yes, and I'm still advocating it. Just not non-directional throw breaks. This thread is a departure from that other thread, as mentioned by OP. I'm not sure what you are attempting to start up with the attitude, but I don't particularly care for it. If you've got some unresolved issues with me that can only be settled through fencing, I recommend you bring it to a tournament. I'm tired of dealing with this kind of nonsense on the forums.

If you want an answer to what you stated before in the previous thread, than I would say Bass has bigger issues than his ability to land throws. Those issues need to be solved the correct way, and you don't fix a character-related issue by messing with the system. You fix the issues by fixing the character.

First you fix the system, then you fix the characters. If you do it the other way, your balance will always be messed up and the system will always suck.

 

[MrMoon360]

MrMoon360

This thread is a departure from that other thread, as mentioned by OP. I'm not sure what you are attempting to start up with the attitude, but I don't particularly care for it. If you've got some unresolved issues with me that can only be settled through fencing, I recommend you bring it to a tournament. I'm tired of dealing with this kind of nonsense on the forums.

If you want an answer to what you stated before in the previous thread, than I would say Bass has bigger issues than his ability to land throws. Those issues need to be solved the correct way, and you don't fix a character-related issue by messing with the system. You fix the issues by fixing the character.

First you fix the system, then you fix the characters. If you do it the other way, your balance will always be messed up and the system will always suck.

Nonsense. I can make sense of this quite easily.
Your pompous, omniscient attitude -- which I don't quite care for-- merits this exposure of your ignorance when applicable. Remember that ignorance is innocent and I would never call you stupid. So admit when you're wrong sometimes.

Now on to your theory on Bass and the system, because I'm having trouble deciphering its full meaning. Sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

Although I do believe the fighting system could use some tweaking as far as some stuns, considering all characters and not just Bass, I agree this is a character related issue. DOA is solid; What Team NINJA calls balance is not quite so in my opinion. At least in Armstrong's case, I can say with confidence that they made him a lot less scary from previous builds. How do they justify that? That's the system that needs to change. Balance.
I think 6KP should still grant a guaranteed pickup from an air juggle. Armstrong's pickup is the most credible thing to fear from him, because of how slow he is. While in critical state against Bass, its much easier/smarter to wait for his telegraphed strikes, then counter when they're thrown, than to risk HCH damage from a premature hold.
I just think Bass should be rewarded more for his ability to get anyone up in there air. Also throw breaks entering this equation should be out of the question if DOA is to remain DOA with its fighting system as it stands. (throws not being applicable in any stun. Only in punishment (whiff and strike recovery), OHs and neutral stance)

 

[Rikuto]

So admit when you're wrong sometimes.

Unfortunately I'm never wrong, so you'll just have to suffer reality for now. You might try your own advice though, as last I checked you were not the brilliant exception to every rule the same way that I am.

The thought is that if you fix Bass as a character and give him better tools across the board, he needn't rely solely on one throw to win the fight for him. Mr. Wah and I have discussed ways to fix Bass numerous times where the system plays no factor whatsoever. At the moment his biggest issue isn't that he lacks a variety of throws that can win the fight (and his hard hitting throws would be used on high-counter anyway), it's that he gets pressured too easily in certain matchups.

One example Mr. Wah had was turning his headbutt throw into a fast OH. That would be a low-risk proposition for him as it does not result in CH if its interrupted, but could get the faster characters off of him and let him take charge of the fight instead of just getting pressured all of the time.

Of course, that's not the only possible solution, but it shows there are answers to his situation as far as fighting strikers goes.

And of course, that still doesn't help him at all against someone who is just going to throw him over and over again due to their inherent speed advantage. Another reason you need directional throw breaks.

 

[MrMoon360]

Unfortunately I'm never wrong, so you'll just have to suffer reality for now.

You want to hate him and like him at the same time, I swear.

One example Mr. Wah had was turning his headbutt throw into a fast OH. That would be a low-risk proposition for him as it does not result in CH if its interrupted, but could get the faster characters off of him and let him take charge of the fight instead of just getting pressured all of the time.

That does sound good..
Even with that, I think that 6KP juggle pickup should come back, though. Don't necessarily think it would break him. He certainly wouldn't be low tier anymore.

And of course, that still doesn't help him at all against someone who is just going to throw him over and over again due to their inherent speed advantage. Another reason you need directional throw breaks.

Talking about the Pai matchup?
I could cope with being at speed disadvantage if when I gain momentum myself, it grants similar advantages.

 

[Rikuto]

Well in Bass's case, it's a lot of matchups. Pai is one of them, but so is Kasumi, and Helena, and pretty much everyone with a throw that results in frame advantage at the end of all things.

If they happen to have speed on top of it, its just ludicrous.

 

[DR2K]

Throws outside of HC are a massive issue, depending on the matchup.

Getting throw reset into juggles all day long from someone like Pai, for example. You can't realistically expect to beat her out, so you want to block, and therefore have to eat a throw. I can tank roll to avoid some of the likely catastrophes, not everyone can.

You also have situations where people like Helena can do the same thing once she gets a single bit of frame advantage. Plenty of others can do similar nonsense as well. Anyone with a throw reset into stun, launch, or frame advantage can effectively turn the game into a high-stakes guessing match with no single option favored over the other instead of a logical battle of knowledge where damage control can play a factor.


I don't like any situation where someone with no knowledge whatsoever can ride a single lucky guess straight to victory. As it stands right now, there are a good number of characters who can do exactly that. And before anyone tries to put themselves in a situation to say thats a good thing -- no, it isn't. Not when the circumstances that led to the situation had no way to logically avoid it in the first place.

You can block, or crouch block. Or zero frame low hold to evade standing throws.You're in a psudo vortex yes, but you're capable of escaping it. It's advantageous guessing really.

 

[crapoZK]

You can block, or crouch block. Or zero frame low hold to evade standing throws.You're in a psudo vortex yes, but you're capable of escaping it. It's advantageous guessing really.

But remember, the low hold is being tweaked to be 5F more in 5U.

 

[Rikuto]

You can block, or crouch block. Or zero frame low hold to evade standing throws.You're in a psudo vortex yes, but you're capable of escaping it. It's advantageous guessing really.

That doesn't give the same benefit as a throw breaking system however. I could block or crouch block, but that makes me vulnerable to other types of attacks. Throw breaks don't. It's defensive guessing, but its done in such a way that its effectively damage control instead of pure randomness. Your suggestion simply means I am taking a bigger risk in a situation that frankly wasn't even earned by my opponent in the first place.

Of course, getting rid of movement prior to Get Ready, Fight! Would go a ways towards legitimizing the situation, but it would still be rather shallow.