Tomonobu Itagaki On Dead or Alive 5: “My Daughter Was Totally Ruined”

[Kronin]

This argument can already be tossed out the window as we know how many versions DOA2 had. In truth, only vanilla 5 and 5U are the versions where players had to rebuy another 5 for the same console.

To be fair DoA2 already got 2 different versions for both Dreamcast and PS2 (even if not always marketed worldwide), so even here I don't understand why Itagaki blamed this aspect of the DoA5 series.

 

[Project Bokuho]

DOA1 had remakes too... *coughs* DOA+, DOA++, DOA (PS1), DOA (Dreamcast?) *coughs*

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA1 had remakes too... *coughs* DOA+, DOA++, DOA (PS1), DOA (Dreamcast?) *coughs*

Incorrect. It had DOA (Arcade), DOA (Saturn), DOA (PS1), and DOA++ (Arcade).

DOA2 though had two iterations in the arcade alone: DOA2 and DOA2: Millenium Edition

 

[Kronin]

Incorrect. It had DOA (Arcade), DOA (Saturn), DOA (PS1), and DOA++ (Arcade).

DOA2 though had two iterations in the arcade alone: DOA2 and DOA2: Millenium Edition

Mr-Wah the Millennium Edition was the Arcade equivalent of what version of DoA2? (I suppose or DoA2 Limited Edition for Dreamcast or DoA2 Hard*Core for PS2)

 

[Hayabusiness]

As usual, he said something vague like all Japanese game developers, except he's being more rude than your average Japanese game developer.
Nothing to see here...

 

[Argentus]

This argument can already be tossed out the window as we know how many versions DOA2 had. In truth, only vanilla 5 and 5U are the versions where players had to rebuy another 5 for the same console. 5+ was for Vita, 5LR is for X1/PS4/PC. As I've said over and over again, last gen players are getting 5U with 2 new characters. That is not a new game in my book.



Fair. Should have mentioned Tecmo Koei as well though since they are a driving factor for this. Although this is more of a reflection of the gaming industry in general.



I don't understand what he's saying here. But the consensus players have already come to is that the characters have never looked better than in this game. The characters look more realistic but still have traits that make them easily recognizable for those transitioning from 4-5.



This goes back to his DLC opinion since there's no way he could be referring to the actual "fan service" content when he himself is just as, if not more guilty of creating the hundreds of bikinis and fetish outfits we've seen in 1-4 and the Xtreme series.

tl;dr None of these answers have any substance to them. Not to mention he's only focusing on the superficial aspects of 5 with no mention of gameplay so it's sad that these were the factors that "ruined" the game for him.

Not really. Its supposed to be entertainment. The "superficial" aspects are actually a huge factor. Otherwise it might as well be mute wire frames. Changing the aesthetic made it feel like a completely different series.

 

[David Gregg]

Not really. Its supposed to be entertainment. The "superficial" aspects are actually a huge factor. Otherwise it might as well be mute wire frames. Changing the aesthetic made it feel like a completely different series.

Aesthetics is another factor which I think has already been covered pretty thoroughly in this thread already. I'm addressing the 4 points he mentioned which are even more superficial as 2 (possibly even 3) of the 4 are referring to marketing strategies rather than focusing on the game itself.

 

[Rikuto]

Force techs encourage people to just mindlessly rushdown, removing the strategic element due to virtually no fear of punishment, and power blows/launchers (mostly critbursts) leads to people just trying to spam setups for them. Not to mention they look utterly retarded.

lol @ "rock paper scissors" though.


I prioritize a good game over a bad one. DOA4's mechanics werent as refined, but it was overall a better game to me. DOA5 was just halfassed across the board.

If you have to compare, GTA4 vs Saints Row2 (or 3, whichever was out at the time). GTA4 was a more technically sound game, but Saints Row 2 was just a better GAME in almost every possible way, while GTA4 was a boring, ugly piece of shit by comparison.

Every stage in DOA 4 worked against competitive play and was deeply flawed in some manner. This is the primary reason you did not see any of those stages return, except DWA. They were bad. Name any stage from the game and I will give you an example of why it was broken.

What is horrifying is that DOA 4 is the only game in the entire series in which absolutely every single level is poorly designed. Not visually, but in terms of gameplay.

 

[Kronin]

Every stage in DOA 4 worked against competitive play and was deeply flawed in some manner. This is the primary reason you did not see any of those stages return, except DWA. They were bad. Name any stage from the game and I will give you an example of why it was broken.

What is horrifying is that DOA 4 is the only game in the entire series in which absolutely every single level is poorly designed. Not visually, but in terms of gameplay.

I would love the return of some old Doa4 stages but Rikuto has a point here, I'm starting to think that the stages were so different and various (I'm not talking of the background but of the shape so different from square arenas) just becuase not getting truly in consideration the fighting game.

By the way I would be curios to know why even Eternal Helix and Crash Club are flawed, to me they seemed to keep an almost costant fair game after all, especially the second one. Also, I suppose that the problem of 999 Meters is the drop, anyway this is an aspect that was used even in other stages of the series as Dragon Hills or Lorelei (even if never including completely the entire fighting arena).

 

[Malfury]

He said something very recent.

"About the ruined games: DOA5 Series"

This is very important issue, so I am picking it up onto my wall. The original thread is here.
https://www.facebook.com/tomonobu.itagaki/posts/1512432799020833?pnref=story

Hi Girindra, my intention is to prevent misunderstandings made daily on my wall. Please understand that I do not have any other intentions to you.

It seems that some people misunderstand the DOA's situation. Needless to say, I love DOA and DOA fans because I and my fellows created this DOA universe from the scratch. But I have to say that DOA was ruined.

"DOA was ruined” - I can surely enumerate the numerous faults of DOA5 series here with precise analysis. DOA5 series have numerous problems. This is not my typo; I wrote "DOA5 SERIES" have many problems.
But I shouldn't make a list of the enormous blemish of DOA5 series for you guys here. If I do so, DOA universe will completely END in a single burst. That's not my wish. Not yours too, right? I’ve already done what I need to do. I told those problems/faults of DOA to DECENT people in the current Team NINJA. This is the reasonable manner along my philosophy.

Now I will write my answers to Girindra's questions. I don’t think four, only for among so many problems of DOA5 series, disclosed to public do not blow up DOA universe.

1) "What installment?"
Answer: All of these games are called as DOA5 blah, blah, blah. I can’t understand so many DOA5 blah, blah, blah exist in this game industry at all. Plus, All of them have different problems – this is real tragedy.

2) "The DLC?"
Answer: This is one of numerous mistakes of current Team NINJA with no doubt.

3) "The Character?"
Answer: I think you're talking about veneer of graphics. I never hate the improvements of graphics, but character setting are absolute shambles. If they wanted change it to such a HASH settings, they should have created totally different game series.

4) "Fan Service?"
Answer: Fan Service? If you are not using the word, Fan-Service, sarcastically, I would say I can't find any fan services at all in DOA5.
What I can see is dirty tricks which finagle money out of loyal DOA fans.

.
That's all I want to say for now.
Bitters do good to the stomach; the best advice is always the hardest to take.

Source (https://www.facebook.com/tomonobu.itagaki/posts/1513962288867884)

 

[Rikuto]

I would love the return of some old Doa4 stages but Rikuto has a point here, I'm starting to think that the stages were so different and various (I'm not talking of the background but of the shape so different from square arenas) just becuase not getting truly in consideration the fighting game.

By the way I would be curios to know why even Eternal Helix and Crash Club are flawed, to me they seemed to keep an almost costant fair game after all, especially the second one. Also, I suppose that the problem of 999 Meters is the drop, anyway this is an aspect that was used even in other stages of the series as Dragon Hills or Lorelei (even if never including completely the entire fighting arena).

Electric floors in DOA 4 are a large balance concern because for several moves it applies a set amount of damage for every single impact with the floor that is made during the move. An extreme example (that would be legendary if it was ever pulled off in an actual match) would be Bass's full charged 41236T on a backturned opponent. As he drags the opponent along the floor, the electric damage connects multiple times for full value, which results in death happening instantly. The second major problem with Crash Club is the object hanging in the middle of the room which interferes with super launchers, or psuedo-super launchers akin to Eliot.

Its also a small stage which cripples spacing, and in DOA 4 spacing was the only logical meta that existed because of how random the RPS system was.

Great Hall/Eternal Helix is a horrible level for a few reasons, one of which DOA 4 system specific. First, there are areas where super launchers get screwed up. Second, due to the narrow nature of the stage half of your impacts are going to send someone into a wall for non-guaranteed damage, and against a smart person they will probably just stagger to the ground and put you into a situation where you have to deal with the 3 point bullshit wakeup kick of projectile death.

Which brings me to my third point... ANY TIME you knock someone down the stairs or through the window you are forced to deal with a wakeup kick on that stage. Unless your character can jump it with a special move, you have to make an incredibly stupid guess as punishment for successfully knocking your opponent into a hazard. A hazard which is all too easy to accidentally put them into.

Heliport/999 meters is one of the least offending stages and even that one has problems. Specifically, the awkward slope going upwards towards the center of the stage is enough to screw up juggles going in that direction, but its small enough that it doesn't give a decent payoff for going in the opposite direction. It subtracts more than it adds, and that makes it shitty. The only time it can be abused is during Tag due to the more lenient nature of that system.

 

[Matt Ponton]

What is horrifying is that DOA 4 is the only game in the entire series in which absolutely every single level is poorly designed. Not visually, but in terms of gameplay.

It's also the only game in the series to have such a huge gap in the core mechanics of the series since maybe doa1 to DOA++. And yet, its probably the iteration that was played the most as an introduction to the series, making people think "That's DOA.": a shallow shell of a fighting game. That's what I find horrifying.

 

[Rikuto]

Pretty much...

 

[Kronin]

Thanks the clarifications @Rikuto, all very interesting infos. Sadly DoA4 has to be more less balanced than I believe if really even the stages, in addition to the mechanics behind the characters, contribute to it

PS: To say the truth I feel stupid for not having ever realized in all these years that you are forced to deal with a wakeup kick on Eternal Helix after knocking someone on a different tier...

 

[Rikuto]

DOA 4 is probably the most balanced game in the series. Sadly, its also proof that balance alone doesn't make a game good.

It's rock paper scissors.

Only the rock is actually puddy, the paper is bathroom tissue and the scissors are for ages 3 and up.

 

[Kronin]

Ahahah, this is an interesting point of view: then it's true that the extremes meet XD

 

[Matt Ponton]

DOA 4 is probably the most balanced game in the series. Sadly, its also proof that balance alone doesn't make a game good.

It's rock paper scissors.

Only the rock is actually puddy, the paper is bathroom tissue and the scissors are for ages 3 and up.

Ahahah, this is an interesting point of view: then it's true that the extremes meet XD

Agreed. David Sirlin metioned in his book "Playing to Win" that he looked at each fighting game as a mountain to climb. There are certainly different mountains at different sizes, and climbing to the peak of one may make you see another mountain even taller to climb. This is a reference to that, as I have always felt in regards to Dead or Alive 4.

Regardless of what you may think of how tall the left mountain is in comparison to other "Fighting Game" mountains, I look at the left mountain as Dead or Alive 3.1 or even 2 series, or DOA before DOA4. The right mountain was made more balanced, an easier to climb mountain that resembles more of a plateau: You get to the top to find out it was a shorter climb and you're on the same level as everyone else. It's like the mountain was chopped in half (or worse). Even though the plateau may look better in some areas than the mountain, the variety and substance may feel lacking.

That's of course just the way I've always seen DOA4: Like the mountain of DOA was eroded to allow an easier climb so more people could enjoy the top.

 

[Argentus]

Electric floors in DOA 4 are a large balance concern because for several moves it applies a set amount of damage for every single impact with the floor that is made during the move. An extreme example (that would be legendary if it was ever pulled off in an actual match) would be Bass's full charged 41236T on a backturned opponent. As he drags the opponent along the floor, the electric damage connects multiple times for full value, which results in death happening instantly. The second major problem with Crash Club is the object hanging in the middle of the room which interferes with super launchers, or psuedo-super launchers akin to Eliot.

Its also a small stage which cripples spacing, and in DOA 4 spacing was the only logical meta that existed because of how random the RPS system was.

Great Hall/Eternal Helix is a horrible level for a few reasons, one of which DOA 4 system specific. First, there are areas where super launchers get screwed up. Second, due to the narrow nature of the stage half of your impacts are going to send someone into a wall for non-guaranteed damage, and against a smart person they will probably just stagger to the ground and put you into a situation where you have to deal with the 3 point bullshit wakeup kick of projectile death.

Which brings me to my third point... ANY TIME you knock someone down the stairs or through the window you are forced to deal with a wakeup kick on that stage. Unless your character can jump it with a special move, you have to make an incredibly stupid guess as punishment for successfully knocking your opponent into a hazard. A hazard which is all too easy to accidentally put them into.

Heliport/999 meters is one of the least offending stages and even that one has problems. Specifically, the awkward slope going upwards towards the center of the stage is enough to screw up juggles going in that direction, but its small enough that it doesn't give a decent payoff for going in the opposite direction. It subtracts more than it adds, and that makes it shitty. The only time it can be abused is during Tag due to the more lenient nature of that system.

on the wakeups...I think its a matter of perspective.

people are looking at it as a continuing move, as in, like you are said, they are seeing the wake up situation as punishment for knocking the opponent into the hazard.

What they should be considering it as instead, is the damage from the hazard as a reward for hitting the opponent into it. The wakeup is after the fact, and simply the neutral game again.

I can't say too much on 4 other than it was a beautiful game and I much preferred the stages over 5's. my copy was stolen around 2007, didn't get around to a new copy till like 2011, and only could play online.

 

[Matt Ponton]

What they should be considering it as instead, is the damage from the hazard as a reward for hitting the opponent into it. The wakeup is after the fact, and simply the neutral game again.

There was nothing neutral about the player on the ground having the advantage. In 5, you're at neutral because you are far enough away from the opponent to space or evade if you don't want to play the 'guess which wake-up kick' game.

 

[Goarmagon]

He said something very recent.



Source (https://www.facebook.com/tomonobu.itagaki/posts/1513962288867884)

Will this man ever shut the fuck up? He is looking like a manchild.