Tomonobu Itagaki On Dead or Alive 5: “My Daughter Was Totally Ruined”

[JIX9ISLER1986]

I don't think you know how game development works.

Work gets done in a cycle. Typically, work done in that cycle is designated for a specific release version. All work done in that cycle has a cost associated with it -- employees have to be paid a salary, after all. This cost is offset by selling the product version in question.

Work that is not completed during that cycle is typically worked on during the next cycle. Sometimes, things are very nearly completed at the end of a cycle but just don't make it. Sometimes that content is added later on for free, like Zack Island or Lorelei.

Other times, the content wasnt really near completed and becomes the focus of the next cycle. This cycle, again, has its own costs associated with it, and so selling something is mandatory. Employees can't simply be paid with money that doesn't exist.

Cycle starts, cycle is finished, work begins on next cycle, product from first cycle is sold, people hear about second cycle and bitch about why they can't have content that is still in development for free.

That is that wheel of ignorance in regards to game development. Please don't spin the wheel faster.

It's like buying a roast chicken and on your way out the door complaining because the next chicken the guy just pulled out of the oven is newer and should have been offered from the start.

1) Your point would be definitively valid if this practice (multiple versions) was the norm for all games …fighting games in particular …but its not ….what you are saying is common knowledge in regards to game development …thats not the issue here.

2)Games are released unfinished all of the time due to time constraints or publishers pushing for the game to be released ECT…. however but charging for content that is staple in other games is wrong…there is no way to damage control that….

3) I guess i come from an era of gaming where you unlock things and you had to figure out things ….nowadays its microwave gaming and if you don't hold devs and publishers accountable they will get over on you...

a lot of my points went unaddressed which is fine because i know what site I'm on…

''people hear about second cycle and bitch about why they can't have content that is still in development for free.''

4) It needs to be said …that this is a drone mentality though….so if you voice your opinion its ''bitching'' just because its a game we like? its called having an objective opinion rather than being a ''yes man''

devs are to cater to us …..we are not supposed to cater to them……our money puts them on the map… plain and simple…. and what i mean by cater is make the best possible product from the start not re release the same game multiple times….again multiple version are primarily targeted/influenced by the tournament player (minority) not the average gamers(majority).

again i have to stress the point….i would be inclined to give credence to what u said ''if'' this was the norm across the board with gaming….

being objective does not = ''bitching'' but defending any company and never being critical is very much being a drone

there is a key difference being objective vs being a hater ….im very much and objective thinker i can list franchises that i hate doa not being one of them.

besides how is that multiple versions and dlc business practice working for capcom? check there financial status its not good…..not good at all….they couldn't fund making GTAV if they wanted to …(yea that bad)
do you really want doa following that trend ?

 

[Rikuto]

I'm in a good mood today, so I'm going to tell you why.

There is a reason your points were not addressed. Two, really. The first is you number everything in your argument, which means you are now arguing on a format that I have to quote. See, you've made what is supposed to be a simple conversation into homework to just converse. That's annoying, I'd rather ignore your point than actually address it if that's how we have to have a conversation. So instead I opted to just respond to the one thing in your post that feels wrong about your core understanding, in the hopes you can address your own problems.

Which leads into the other reason -- You've already made up your mind what your view is, and nobody here is going to change it. I'm not going to write an essay for the benefit of that one stubborn person who might be enlightened, if he so chooses to come down off that mountain. It's not my responsibility. You've shown me that the game doesn't interest you that much, you don't like how Team Ninja handles things, and you apparently don't even think very much of our little community.

So really, why would anyone spend the time to address anything you have to say? There is nothing redeemable there. I don't even owe you the explanation you're reading right now. That's just me being nice.

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

I'm in a good mood today, so I'm going to tell you why.

There is a reason your points were not addressed. Two, really. The first is you number everything in your argument, which means you are now arguing on a format that I have to quote. See, you've made what is supposed to be a simple conversation into homework to just converse. That's annoying, I'd rather ignore your point than actually address it if that's how we have to have a conversation. So instead I opted to just respond to the one thing in your post that feels wrong about your core understanding, in the hopes you can address your own problems.

Which leads into the other reason -- You've already made up your mind what your view is, and nobody here is going to change it. I'm not going to write an essay for the benefit of that one stubborn person who might be enlightened, if he so chooses to come down off that mountain. It's not my responsibility. You've shown me that the game doesn't interest you that much, you don't like how Team Ninja handles things, and you apparently don't even think very much of our little community.

So really, why would anyone spend the time to address anything you have to say? There is nothing redeemable there. I don't even owe you the explanation you're reading right now. That's just me being nice.

im glad you are in a great mood ; my post is simply to make people think . I simply number things so there is no confusion on what I'm addressing. If it goes avoided or unadressed than…oh well what can i say.
critical objective thinking = stubborn ….gotcha


you are making too many assertions about my perceptions of the community… I'm simply pointing out the pink elephant in the room….if you read my earlier posts i said doa 5 was underwhelming but i also said it doesn't ruin the franchise… I don't owe you an explanation either but know this ……you are the one who replied initially to my post sir not the other way around….(which wasn't directed at anyone specifically) you felt inclined to respond for whatever reason...

 

[NightAntilli]

I don't think he's talking about the mechanics, but rather the looks of the environments. But that's just me.

 

[virtuaPAI]

People should also understand the position they were in too. It is my belief that the change in stage, music, and art direction was trying to make a statement: That this is not the same Team NINJA that was with Itagaki. Yes, I believe you can take that statement in the negative and the positive, but the point was made that this was a relatively new team extending the franchise. They didn't want to use the same character models that had been in use for nearly 10 years, or even the same menu user interface since Dead or Alive 3,

-To be honest, this change in visual and style was much needed. We have witnessed virtually the same character models since 1998! Yes the old models had the original DOA Charm, but these new models are just the beginning and we will see much improvement on the Current Gen Systems.

-In all actuality, Dead or Alive 4 was the embodiment of every single Dead or Alive fighting game title at its purest, and most basic(beginner/casual experience) level. No one at the beginner/casual levels would have ever seen any significant differences competitive wise. I know this to be as fact due to all and every single form of video game publication not citing at least one major gameplay change that drastically effected the out come of competitive Dead or Alive play between DOA2, DOA3 and DOA4! This also spanned out into the Competitive fighting game player base also having no clue of said differences! It took players like myself( over 13 years ago!) and Mr. Wah to break down the series down to it's very core, which provided the community with the very knowledge to have such high level competitive Dead or Alive play!

-Dead or Alive 4 is the exact result of Itagaki eyes being opened to what we the competitive DOA player base were doing with his game. He seen that we were able to go beyond his simple concept of just playing a fast fighter and constantly making guesses after guesses without any strategic foundation, or formula(s) to place the odds within the more skilled players grasps. If we were not here, he would still be in the belief that all the DOA's pre DOA4 played just like it. In fact, He still did not approve of how we end up playing DOA4 competitively! He did not enjoy all of the spacing and other techniques we tried to apply to that abysmal game. So at the end of the day, he was never a fan of true competitive play.

and the system was not going to be a DOA4.4. They decided to actively listen to the playerbase that plays their game more than any other, that's something Itagaki would never do.

-Thank God The new team went out and sought out the advice of its competitive player base! I do believe Myself, Mr. Wah and Rikuto have done a great service to our community. By having that initial meet and greet with the Team pre-DOA5. Just them seeing how much more praise(and actual play time) DOA3.1 was receiving compared to DOA4 spoke volumes ;-P

Yes, he used competitive "Virtua Fighter" balance testers for DOA4, but that's like getting Guilty Gear balance testers for Street Fighter 4.

-Ugh, what a misguided person Itagaki was. How in the hell do you get players from another franchise to balance test a fighting game that have very stark differences in play and application! Yes I was able to use Virtua Fighter as a base to break down the Dead or Alive series, however, even I seen that it was never a 1:1 translation. I had to rework practically everything so that it could be applicable within DOA's style of play.

 

[David Gregg]

im glad you are in a great mood ; my post is simply to make people think.

These are all issues the community have thought about but which the majority of us are okay with. LR was originally designed as a port for current gen and PC, with last gens never meant to get a third version (which truthfully they're really not since they'll be getting just the 2 DLC characters when it comes down to it). This third version is very relevant b/c those systems don't have them yet and as someone who owns a PS4 I would love to have a fighter for the system that doesn't really have a lot of games to offer at this point. TN is reaching out to as many systems as possible which is good exposure. That's something Itagaki didn't believe in.

The whole point of this thread is how Itagaki has claimed that the new team has ruined his daughter and the majority vote says we disagree with him (including you). All we're saying is we have come so far in terms of the roster, the character models, gameplay mechanics, not to mention how receptive they have been to the community from player feedback being incorporated into patches to fan outfit designs becoming a reality.

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

These are all issues the community have thought about but which the majority of us are okay with. LR was originally designed as a port for current gen and PC, with last gens never meant to get a third version (which truthfully they're really not since they'll be getting just the 2 DLC characters when it comes down to it). This third version is very relevant b/c those systems don't have them yet and as someone who owns a PS4 I would love to have a fighter for the system that doesn't really have a lot of games to offer at this point. TN is reaching out to as many systems as possible which is good exposure. That's something Itagaki didn't believe in.

The whole point of this thread is how Itagaki has claimed that the new team has ruined his daughter and the majority vote says we disagree with him (including you). All we're saying is we have come so far in terms of the roster, the character models, gameplay mechanics, not to mention how receptive they have been to the community from player feedback being incorporated into patches to fan outfit designs becoming a reality.

Its true itagaki didn't really want to have his games multi platform specifically doa3 and doa4 but his reasoning was never to spite a community…it was to create the best possible polished game on the platform that works the best for his creative vision (which i can't knock).

I just find it funny how people are now bad mouthing him because he made a statement about doa5 which they don't like due to emotional attachments to the game….as if his opinion has zero credibility ….because when he was with team ninja his opinion in the minds of the fans was very credible….that is just hypocrisy at its finest...

itagaki has made statement about other fighting games in the past so these statement are within his character so why are people shocked about it is beyond me… (he has made comments about tekken and VF)

thats like if miyamoto left nintendo and talked trash about a mario game he didn't work on and everyone came to damage control saying his opinion doesnt matter...

all I'm saying is instead of reacting like fanboys …what should happen to create healthy creative discussion is to go into the details of why he feels that way as opposed to simply saying ''he's a hater'' ''he isn't credible''

doa 5 was underwhelming and i can't say it was better than doa4 overall especially not with 3 versions …and since they wanna do multiple version i will enjoy giving my money to other fighting games that i like as well

thank you for your reply

 

[David Gregg]

all I'm saying is instead of reacting like fanboys …what should happen to create healthy creative discussion is to go into the details of why he feels that way as opposed to simply saying ''he's a hater'' ''he isn't credible''

All I'm saying is, if he had approached this situation better and actually explained his own thoughts on the game rather than just bad mouth it and call the team "porn directors" (which he himself is in no position to say as like Princess Kasumi said he was the founder of DOA's sexualization and his Xtreme series was a FG = fapper game), I would have listened to what he had to say as he was a major contributor to this series. But now he's just coming across as a butt-hurt developer who finally has the confidence to criticize b/c he's releasing a game of his own. If you want a mature reaction from fans, you have to make mature statements yourself (something which he did not do).

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

All I'm saying is, if he had approached this situation better and actually explained his own thoughts on the game rather than just bad mouth it and call the team "porn directors" (which he himself is in no position to say as like Princess Kasumi said he was the founder of DOA's sexualization and his Xtreme series was a FG = fapper game), I would have listened to what he had to say as he was a major contributor to this series. But now he's just coming across as a butt-hurt developer who finally has the confidence to criticize b/c he's releasing a game of his own. If you want a mature reaction from fans, you have to make mature statements yourself (something which he did not do).

did you ask for his explanation when he made comments about tekken and virtua fighter when he was with team ninja ??

 

[David Gregg]

did you ask for his explanation when he made comments about tekken and virtua fighter when he was with team ninja ??

Since he was never involved in either of those games, why would I care what his opinion on them would be? Right now we're talking about his opinion on DOA. Stay on topic man! To answer your question though, if I knew who he was at that time and saw him making those comments I would have perceived him as a jealous man who likes to talk down on successful games, much like I see him right now.

 

[Chapstick]

Odd he would badmouth VF since that's what he based DOA on. :/

Edit- LOL just looked up what he said about Tekken: "Tekken is shit"

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

Since he was never involved in either of those games, why would I care what his opinion on them would be? Right now we're talking about his opinion on DOA. Stay on topic man! To answer your question though, if I knew who he was at that time and saw him making those comments I would have perceived him as a jealous man who likes to talk down on successful games, much like I see him right now.

i am on topic I'm talking about consistency ….itagaki's comments are consistent to who is and how he has reacted….
all I'm saying is your reaction should be consistent because if not it comes across as biased


then why should you care about his opinion on doa 5 then ? where is the consistency
so he can trash other games and that's ok no need to explain but if he trashes ''my game'' EXPLAIN! that called bias …...

 

[David Gregg]

i am on topic I'm talking about consistency ….itagaki's comments are consistent to who is and how he has reacted….
all I'm saying is your reaction should be consistent because if not it comes across as biased

then why should you care about his opinion on doa 5 then ? where is the consistency
so he can trash other games and that's ok no need to explain but if he trashes ''my game'' EXPLAIN! that called bias …...

If you read my comment further, you'd see that my reaction would be consistent:

To answer your question though, if I knew who he was at that time and saw him making those comments I would have perceived him as a jealous man who likes to talk down on successful games, much like I see him right now.

You my friend know the point I'm making. Google search red herring fallacy some time btw. It doesn't make your arguments more logical.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

i am on topic I'm talking about consistency ….itagaki's comments are consistent to who is and how he has reacted….
all I'm saying is your reaction should be consistent because if not it comes across as biased


then why should you care about his opinion on doa 5 then ? where is the consistency
so he can trash other games and that's ok no need to explain but if he trashes ''my game'' EXPLAIN! that called bias …...

Buddy, just stop while you're ahead, you're making your self look like an ass the more you talk. Just a heads up.

As for Itagaki, he had his way of doing things and the current Team Ninja under Hayashi have theirs. For the lack of a better description, Itagaki was a scrub at fighting games (which makes it understandable why he may find a game like Tekken to be "shit"). He pretty much mostly cared about flash over substance. Looking good over legit, competitive gameplay. Though, that's not to say that he produces crappy gameplay as evidenced with Ninja Gaiden Black and the like. If Itagaki led DOA5, it would look better visually, but would likely have the same shitty DOA4 unbalanced gameplay and relative lack of community support. As for me, I'd rather take what Hayashi's Team Ninja has developed over what Itagaki's Team Ninja had developed. I weighed both sides and feel that DOA5 made a better contribution to the series overall.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I just find it funny how people are now bad mouthing him because he made a statement about doa5 which they don't like due to emotional attachments to the game….as if his opinion has zero credibility ….because when he was with team ninja his opinion in the minds of the fans was very credible….that is just hypocrisy at its finest...

-Actually that is not true at all. Us Competitive players have been saying for years that he did not know what gems he had with DOA1-DOA3.1. Pretty much unanimously (Agreed upon by our competing players) that Itagaki was incompetent concerning how to make a competitive fighter. As I noted in my earlier post: "his simple concept of just playing a fast fighter and constantly making guesses after guesses without any strategic foundation, or formula(s) to place the odds within the more skilled players grasps" Left no room for growth, which set the bar for high level play extremely low! Players were forced to play the stun mix-up game 95-98% of the time. This resulted in the roster virtually playing exactly alike(stun-guess-stun-guess..etc.), stripped away was each characters individuality, their uniqueness...and ultimately the depth we so learned to love and appreciate.

itagaki has made statement about other fighting games in the past so these statement are within his character so why are people shocked about it is beyond me… (he has made comments about tekken and VF)

-Itagaki has always give praise to the VF series, and did not bad mouth it. He often spoke harshly about Tekken, only because their team bad mouthed DOA1 when it was first introduced.

all I'm saying is instead of reacting like fanboys …what should happen to create healthy creative discussion is to go into the details of why he feels that way as opposed to simply saying ''he's a hater'' ''he isn't credible''

-Knowing the history of both the DOA series and Itagaki, will prove that a healthy discussion is not feasible. The Very fact that this man stripped all the depth of the series within one month's time(reason for DOA4's launch delay). Shows both his lack of understanding and concern for High level Dead or Alive Competition. All Shimbori and the rest of Team Ninja did was reinstate all of the gameplay elements, intricacies/nuances, character individuality, and overall depth that was sorely missing. If we were to compare all the games within the series, we would all find to be true that DOA1(all versions), DOA2(all versions). DOA3(all versions), and DOA5(all versions) have competitive play similarities. With each game consecutively building upon its predecessor. The only game that do not hold true at all is DOA4.1(with DOA4.0 actually containing some semblance of actual depth).

doa 5 was underwhelming and i can't say it was better than doa4 overall especially not with 3 versions …and since they wanna do multiple version i will enjoy giving my money to other fighting games that i like as well

thank you for your reply

-You must not have been part of this community for very long. In the series history, there have always been more than one version created.

DOA1: Arcade, Sega Saturn version(movement, physics, and gameplay properties were altered), Playstaion version(added moves, attack property changes, new characters, and those stages found in both the Arcade and Sega Saturn versions were completely removed.

DOA2: Arcade, Arcade/Dreamcast/PS2 Millennium edition(added tag play, attack property changes). Dreamcast LE(added new moves, attack properties,costumes, stages and new characters). PS2 Hardcore added more costumes, new moves, attack property changes, and new stages.

DOA3: American release(Version 3.0). Considered incomplete. Japanese release(Version 3.1). New moves were added, attack property changes, Free stepping/wall stepping became more evasive, new costumes. European release(Version 3.2). Move property changes, Free stepping/wall stepping was drastically reduced down to DOA2 type levels.

DOA4: DOA4.0 original release. DOA4.1. Drastic Attack property changes, etc.

-So as you can see, DOA5 is not the first installment in the series to have multiple updates/revisions!

 

[Matt Ponton]

I just find it funny how people are now bad mouthing him because he made a statement about doa5 which they don't like due to emotional attachments to the game….as if his opinion has zero credibility ….because when he was with team ninja his opinion in the minds of the fans was very credible….that is just hypocrisy at its finest...

Except the community that is in disagreement with his recent claims is the same community that was in disagreement with him after the release of Dead or Alive 4.

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

-Actually that is not true at all. Us Competitive players have been saying for years that he did not know what gems he had with DOA1-DOA3.1. Pretty much unanimously (Agreed upon by our competing players) that Itagaki was incompetent concerning how to make a competitive fighter. As I noted in my earlier post: "his simple concept of just playing a fast fighter and constantly making guesses after guesses without any strategic foundation, or formula(s) to place the odds within the more skilled players grasps" Left no room for growth, which set the bar for high level play extremely low! Players were forced to play the stun mix-up game 95-98% of the time. This resulted in the roster virtually playing exactly alike(stun-guess-stun-guess..etc.), stripped away was each characters individuality, their uniqueness...and ultimately the depth we so learned to love and appreciate.


-Itagaki has always give praise to the VF series, and did not bad mouth it. He often spoke harshly about Tekken, only because their team bad mouthed DOA1 when it was first introduced.


-Knowing the history of both the DOA series and Itagaki, will prove that a healthy discussion is not feasible. The Very fact that this man stripped all the depth of the series within one month's time(reason for DOA4's launch delay). Shows both his lack of understanding and concern for High level Dead or Alive Competition. All Shimbori and the rest of Team Ninja did was reinstate all of the gameplay elements, intricacies/nuances, character individuality, and overall depth that was sorely missing. If we were to compare all the games within the series, we would all find to be true that DOA1(all versions), DOA2(all versions). DOA3(all versions), and DOA5(all versions) have competitive play similarities. With each game consecutively building upon its predecessor. The only game that do not hold true at all is DOA4.1(with DOA4.0 actually containing some semblance of actual depth).


-You must not have been part of this community for very long. In the series history, there have always been more than one version created.

DOA1: Arcade, Sega Saturn version(movement, physics, and gameplay properties were altered), Playstaion version(added moves, attack property changes, new characters, and those stages found in both the Arcade and Sega Saturn versions were completely removed.

DOA2: Arcade, Arcade/Dreamcast/PS2 Millennium edition(added tag play, attack property changes). Dreamcast LE(added new moves, attack properties,costumes, stages and new characters). PS2 Hardcore added more costumes, new moves, attack property changes, and new stages.

DOA3: American release(Version 3.0). Considered incomplete. Japanese release(Version 3.1). New moves were added, attack property changes, Free stepping/wall stepping became more evasive, new costumes. European release(Version 3.2). Move property changes, Free stepping/wall stepping was drastically reduced down to DOA2 type levels.

DOA4: DOA4.0 original release. DOA4.1. Drastic Attack property changes, etc.

-So as you can see, DOA5 is not the first installment in the series to have multiple updates/revisions!

smh ….. How many retail console versions are there ? There is only one version of doa 4 on console you had to buy there was no doa4 ''hyper edition'' you had to buy to keep up with the series….this is where your point falls apart…same applies for all the other doa games outside of 5

Please answer this question how many retail copies for the same system do you own for each game ?

its hardly the same thing….

 

[Matt Ponton]

smh ….. How many retail console versions are there ? There is only one version of doa 4 on console you had to buy there was no doa4 ''hyper edition'' you had to buy to keep up with the series….this is where your point falls apart…same applies for all the other doa games outside of 5

Please answer this question how many retail copies for the same system do you own for each game ?

its hardly the same thing….

How is DOA2 on Dreamcast and DOA2 Hardcore on PS2 the same? And how does it differ from DOA5 Ultimate on PS3/360 and DOA5 Last Round on PS4/XBO?

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

Buddy, just stop while you're ahead, you're making your self look like an ass the more you talk. Just a heads up.

As for Itagaki, he had his way of doing things and the current Team Ninja under Hayashi have theirs. For the lack of a better description, Itagaki was a scrub at fighting games (which makes it understandable why he may find a game like Tekken to be "shit" or not really like how VF is). He pretty much mostly cared about flash over substance. Looking good over legit, competitive gameplay. Though, that's not to say that he produces crappy gameplay as evidenced with Ninja Gaiden Black and the like. If Itagaki led DOA5, it would look better visually, but would likely have the same shitty DOA4 unbalanced gameplay and relative lack of community support. As for me, I'd rather take what Hayashi's Team Ninja has developed over what Itagaki's Team Ninja had developed. I weighed both sides and feel that DOA5 made a better contribution to the series overall.

And your personal attack makes you look like a drone simply because you disagree.. The moment personal attacks come into a discussion you expose yourself as having little to no credibility.

 

[JIX9ISLER1986]

How is DOA2 on Dreamcast and PS2 the same? And how does it differ from DOA5 Ultimate on PS3/360 and DOA5 Last Round on PS4/XBO?

Doa 2 is on the dreamcast Doa 2 hardcore was more or less a port with a few extra features for a more capable platform in the ps2...i
it would be a similar situation if last round wasn't on ps3 and 360.