might be better if you didn't get our hands on it.when yall play characters get nerfed
Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes
- Thread starter Berzerk!
- Start date
Nice... I never got to play any other build of DOA5 apart from Alpha and Retail, and I'm in UK so I'm not sure if they did it here. I know that they did it in like Germany and Paris so I could go there to play it.
Seriously...
- Zack has a GREAT mix-up game.
- His strings give him stuns which either do not allow stagger escape, or give out stuns that are too long to make the stagger escape of any use. This means that Zack eliminates a whole defense option and forces you to hold or you get stuffed.
- 4K is disgusting (I love it).
- Has 2 critical bursts one being MID P the other a MID K.
- He has one of the best force tech games.
- He has a good frame trap game.
- His juggle potential is one of the best in the game.
Granted, he may not have the GUARANTEED shenanigans that other characters may have, but that does not make him a bad character. He was simply designed differently.
You need to play a good Zack to see how annoying he can be.
Koompbala
Well-Known Member
While an idea maybe stupid the fact idea's are being thought of is a good thing I think. Just my two cents.
FINALLY, someone is not bashing Zack for what he is good for. If you play a good or above average Zack, you are in for a killing. Zack is not "Skank", he is like El Fuerte in SSFIV. He is underrated, but when somebody is dedicated to learn his tricks, and combos, he is a beast. It's just the Zacks you see when somebody presses random select and they get him that spam lows and do predictable shizz. THAT is what makes Zack look "Skank" and low tier (Which he is not.) No character in DOA makes you have to guess if they're going to do about 5 things derived from the same string apart from Zack. He's got about 10 strings derived from
, and about 5 strings from . It's amazing and very annoying.Also, just to bring up the mix-up game even more, Zack could have a string from
where he goes which brings him to the end of the K string after the first kick. But it actually looks like: . That is what it would look like in moves, but faster. He could also have a low variant of it as well (). Damn, why didn't I think of this instead of the Zack Cannonball?
Cr!msonWarrior There's an edit button. Please use it if no one has posted since your last post.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Mechanics... [Disclaimer: I write books, so be prepared for a long read]
Only qualms I have are with jumping OH's and really OH's in general. It'd be one thing if the game had actual frame advantage but if I jab someone in the face because they tried to OH at disadvantage or more importantly, they weren't blocking in general, I don't want to be punished by being counter blown because they were whacking buttons. I think everyone at some point has witnessed this.
It's especially hard for someone like Hayate who's fastest counter poke is -12 on hit so if someone is mashing 66TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, now because I poked them with this tool and beat out their OH because they used it "incorrectly", they get a free unseeable throw... because they screwed up?
But that's an issue of frame advantage.
I'd also like to see a stun to launch system that rewards you for getting a counter blow. The DOAD stun to launch system sounds nice but I'd have to witness it myself. Driving to CB for a free powerblow or power launcher sounds nice as well so long as juggles are amped up to reward you for that drive. I think that's another reason they amped up the life bar. Seems like they might be thinking about getting really big combos that might or might not be too powerful for 270. We'll see, i'm interested.
As far as characters go:
Hayate
With the changes that are happening to the mechanics, all I want to really see is a new string (7PPP, 7PKP, and 7PK2K). Basically it'd be a new high punch sort of like Hitomi's own 7P with a high palm afterward and a deep guts mid punch afterward which can be charged for his +3 Rekkuga GB. 7PK would be a mid kick like Kasumi's 6K. I don't know about tracking but the main part of this is to give Hayate a high to mid stun to catch low holders and still extend the stun threshold. The follow ups are just there to be there. The P would be an unsafe mid punch that looks like Hitomi's 4KP some what but has the effect of 236P/PP2KP. The 4PK2K is a low sweep. Unsafe. Pretty slow.
More over, string pressure in general would be nice with him. He's a 1 hit wonder for the most part, so he should get a few more stun game strings. 1KP/1KK returning would be nice as well as 2KK. PP4P should be brought back as well... if damage nerfs are in order fine. I just want mid tracking from my punch strings on the 3rd hit.
More wind dash cancels would be cool as well as making PPK, H+K and SS K stun again and 66K for that matter. If they want to stick with nothing guaranteed off of it fine but with a wind dash cancel he could get the mix-up off of it between the wind dash uppercut and wind dash kick granted that the kick becomes and unsafe launcher again. On top of that put back 4h+k as a safe poke in addition to this then you have a solid poke and wind dash 50/50 launcher situation.
As far as the actual cancels PPK6P+K/H+K6P+K, 3K6P+K, 66KK6P+K, and 8P8K6P+K (hit confirm only like Kasumi's 7K's). The main purpose of the 8P8K one is Oki and to give some incentive for using the string. Also he'd need 8P8K to be a better guard break since it's incredibly slow anyway, but he'd at least get some more respect off of the move. In a juggle 8P8K will KD still but he'll dash in sort of like Kasumi does and be in their face. Some prefer this because of his wake up game. I'm one of those people. You don't have to use it though, you can stay out as well by not wind dashing in.
That's all he needs and when it comes to the cancels they sit on the border of "need" vs "want". The "want" is there to improve the integration of the the stance within his gameplay while the need comes to improving the stance as it is to really create that 50/50 pressure launchers and the grab and guard break as back ups for punishing those holds that may come.
Another thing on the border is Hayate getting his old wind dash along side his new one with a new tracking unsafe mid kick, preferably one with the animation of 8K. Launch height could be a heavy bound or the one from DOA4 where his only real follow up was 8P8K. Everything else will be in tact as it was while probably making one of the other mids safe/pseudo safe which I'd imagine would be the elbow but the kick could be too since it's a knockdown.
My reasons behind this are that the new wind dash isn't truly an aggressive dash. It's more so for whiff punishment if at all and more importantly it somewhat works like a means to an end. It has two launchers and a grab that does good damage and leaves him far from the enemy with no real way to continue a combo. The guard break is just there to cover those. The old wind dash was about getting in, it covered more distance, stunning elbow (start the stun game), knockdown that left the opponent pretty close so that you could dash in for a mix-up + a wall splat. The low was there to catch someone who holds or stands there guarding. It straight up the opponent on his/her ass and then you were in, and at advantage for that matter. The throw covered those options to get solid damage for the same thing that the low would, with the risk of being hi counter blown.
Anyway, I know I write books but all in all my hopes are to make Hayate a more solid striker. While he is ok now, there's just characters that are clearly better and can walk all over him.
Jann Lee - All I wanted to see was DS 6P tracking. They gave him Way of the dragon as a strike... fine. Hope is kills incorrectly timed SS like the BKO hand slaps can.
Speaking of Dragon Stance, he should get a few more cancels. 4K4 would be cool, 66K4 would be a HILARIOUS mix-up. 2K4/PP2K4 would be cool. Last but not least, BT 4P4 since it's almost identical to 6P4.
Also 6H+K should launch BT opponents again. If they're keeping the DG like it is now, this would give him a juggle for DGing a BT opponent. If you get caught by a grab in BT and the DG on bt at that, you deserve to get comboed. The combo would be 6H+K4, DS K, 6PK or 6H+K4, DS K, 6K46K. This was possible in the 1.01 - 1.02 build when I picked up JL again.
Also give 33P a better stun to launch height so that he can at least ppp6p or p2pk. It's a slow launcher and only as powerful as the others on no charge.
Ryu Hayabusa - 2h+k should mid crush again in later frames but not retardedly like in DOA4.
Frankly I don't know why the stuns on lows like his were nerfed so bad but if we can get back better stuns (because 2h+k was +19 and could be SE'd to where he gets nothing and it's still like that), then I'd like that for Hayate too and I suppose some others.
66K should launch on highest threshold so that there's a better mix-up and better pay off.
If they'd consider the Underworld Drop (NG2) as a Shoho type situation... that'd be awesome as well but this one doesn't matter.
3KK should get its old animation back. 3KK as it is not is uninspiring and lame.
I don't take credit for this idea but I heard from someone a nice idea for his Ongyoin stance. Instead of having his slide kick as his low, they should put Ryu's 1k as his Ongyoin stance low so that he'd have another way of looping back into the stance and a generally good poke within it.
Brad Wong - DHO H+K cancel to BT without striking or cancel to laydown as mix-ups. The move is worse than any form of 3h+k as far as slowness.
His hurtboxes need to be fixed.
Zack - Give him and Hayate a tag throw where Hayate does his "You could never defeat me" taunt and Zack does his "Zack Beam" taunt giving a combined mega beam. This would be the ultimate tag throw.
I played Zack for a bit and I really like this character, he's just not my style. He's constantly underestimated because of his lack of guaranteed damage but his mix-up is really good and he's just really about widdling you down piece by piece. His damage is about as good/better than Kasumi by a little bit. His taunts are top tier and his ground game is pretty nice.
There's other changes to be made but I've already taken up too much of your time. Thank you for reading.
Only qualms I have are with jumping OH's and really OH's in general. It'd be one thing if the game had actual frame advantage but if I jab someone in the face because they tried to OH at disadvantage or more importantly, they weren't blocking in general, I don't want to be punished by being counter blown because they were whacking buttons. I think everyone at some point has witnessed this.
It's especially hard for someone like Hayate who's fastest counter poke is -12 on hit so if someone is mashing 66TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, now because I poked them with this tool and beat out their OH because they used it "incorrectly", they get a free unseeable throw... because they screwed up?
But that's an issue of frame advantage.
I'd also like to see a stun to launch system that rewards you for getting a counter blow. The DOAD stun to launch system sounds nice but I'd have to witness it myself. Driving to CB for a free powerblow or power launcher sounds nice as well so long as juggles are amped up to reward you for that drive. I think that's another reason they amped up the life bar. Seems like they might be thinking about getting really big combos that might or might not be too powerful for 270. We'll see, i'm interested.
As far as characters go:
Hayate
With the changes that are happening to the mechanics, all I want to really see is a new string (7PPP, 7PKP, and 7PK2K). Basically it'd be a new high punch sort of like Hitomi's own 7P with a high palm afterward and a deep guts mid punch afterward which can be charged for his +3 Rekkuga GB. 7PK would be a mid kick like Kasumi's 6K. I don't know about tracking but the main part of this is to give Hayate a high to mid stun to catch low holders and still extend the stun threshold. The follow ups are just there to be there. The P would be an unsafe mid punch that looks like Hitomi's 4KP some what but has the effect of 236P/PP2KP. The 4PK2K is a low sweep. Unsafe. Pretty slow.
More over, string pressure in general would be nice with him. He's a 1 hit wonder for the most part, so he should get a few more stun game strings. 1KP/1KK returning would be nice as well as 2KK. PP4P should be brought back as well... if damage nerfs are in order fine. I just want mid tracking from my punch strings on the 3rd hit.
More wind dash cancels would be cool as well as making PPK, H+K and SS K stun again and 66K for that matter. If they want to stick with nothing guaranteed off of it fine but with a wind dash cancel he could get the mix-up off of it between the wind dash uppercut and wind dash kick granted that the kick becomes and unsafe launcher again. On top of that put back 4h+k as a safe poke in addition to this then you have a solid poke and wind dash 50/50 launcher situation.
As far as the actual cancels PPK6P+K/H+K6P+K, 3K6P+K, 66KK6P+K, and 8P8K6P+K (hit confirm only like Kasumi's 7K's). The main purpose of the 8P8K one is Oki and to give some incentive for using the string. Also he'd need 8P8K to be a better guard break since it's incredibly slow anyway, but he'd at least get some more respect off of the move. In a juggle 8P8K will KD still but he'll dash in sort of like Kasumi does and be in their face. Some prefer this because of his wake up game. I'm one of those people. You don't have to use it though, you can stay out as well by not wind dashing in.
That's all he needs and when it comes to the cancels they sit on the border of "need" vs "want". The "want" is there to improve the integration of the the stance within his gameplay while the need comes to improving the stance as it is to really create that 50/50 pressure launchers and the grab and guard break as back ups for punishing those holds that may come.
Another thing on the border is Hayate getting his old wind dash along side his new one with a new tracking unsafe mid kick, preferably one with the animation of 8K. Launch height could be a heavy bound or the one from DOA4 where his only real follow up was 8P8K. Everything else will be in tact as it was while probably making one of the other mids safe/pseudo safe which I'd imagine would be the elbow but the kick could be too since it's a knockdown.
My reasons behind this are that the new wind dash isn't truly an aggressive dash. It's more so for whiff punishment if at all and more importantly it somewhat works like a means to an end. It has two launchers and a grab that does good damage and leaves him far from the enemy with no real way to continue a combo. The guard break is just there to cover those. The old wind dash was about getting in, it covered more distance, stunning elbow (start the stun game), knockdown that left the opponent pretty close so that you could dash in for a mix-up + a wall splat. The low was there to catch someone who holds or stands there guarding. It straight up the opponent on his/her ass and then you were in, and at advantage for that matter. The throw covered those options to get solid damage for the same thing that the low would, with the risk of being hi counter blown.
Anyway, I know I write books but all in all my hopes are to make Hayate a more solid striker. While he is ok now, there's just characters that are clearly better and can walk all over him.
Jann Lee - All I wanted to see was DS 6P tracking. They gave him Way of the dragon as a strike... fine. Hope is kills incorrectly timed SS like the BKO hand slaps can.
Speaking of Dragon Stance, he should get a few more cancels. 4K4 would be cool, 66K4 would be a HILARIOUS mix-up. 2K4/PP2K4 would be cool. Last but not least, BT 4P4 since it's almost identical to 6P4.
Also 6H+K should launch BT opponents again. If they're keeping the DG like it is now, this would give him a juggle for DGing a BT opponent. If you get caught by a grab in BT and the DG on bt at that, you deserve to get comboed. The combo would be 6H+K4, DS K, 6PK or 6H+K4, DS K, 6K46K. This was possible in the 1.01 - 1.02 build when I picked up JL again.
Also give 33P a better stun to launch height so that he can at least ppp6p or p2pk. It's a slow launcher and only as powerful as the others on no charge.
Ryu Hayabusa - 2h+k should mid crush again in later frames but not retardedly like in DOA4.
Frankly I don't know why the stuns on lows like his were nerfed so bad but if we can get back better stuns (because 2h+k was +19 and could be SE'd to where he gets nothing and it's still like that), then I'd like that for Hayate too and I suppose some others.
66K should launch on highest threshold so that there's a better mix-up and better pay off.
If they'd consider the Underworld Drop (NG2) as a Shoho type situation... that'd be awesome as well but this one doesn't matter.
3KK should get its old animation back. 3KK as it is not is uninspiring and lame.
I don't take credit for this idea but I heard from someone a nice idea for his Ongyoin stance. Instead of having his slide kick as his low, they should put Ryu's 1k as his Ongyoin stance low so that he'd have another way of looping back into the stance and a generally good poke within it.
Brad Wong - DHO H+K cancel to BT without striking or cancel to laydown as mix-ups. The move is worse than any form of 3h+k as far as slowness.
His hurtboxes need to be fixed.
Zack - Give him and Hayate a tag throw where Hayate does his "You could never defeat me" taunt and Zack does his "Zack Beam" taunt giving a combined mega beam. This would be the ultimate tag throw.
I played Zack for a bit and I really like this character, he's just not my style. He's constantly underestimated because of his lack of guaranteed damage but his mix-up is really good and he's just really about widdling you down piece by piece. His damage is about as good/better than Kasumi by a little bit. His taunts are top tier and his ground game is pretty nice.
There's other changes to be made but I've already taken up too much of your time. Thank you for reading.
I said the same thing when they gave her BT 4H+K in 1.03. I wanted this to be a mid punch while back turn because BT 4H+K heightens the chance of BT 4K to be held. But I came to accept BT 4H+K simply because it has other applications outside of being used for Critical Burst. It is a range poke with an un-staggerable gut stun just like 11P is (leads to high/mid launch which leads into force tech), and is range safe due to it's push back on block.
But I am more concerned about how I will be able to apply the Power Launcher for punishment (possibly?) and in Critical Burst set ups. And figuring out how I will have to re-apply (if necessary) her tool set.
Back to Zack Strats, his back facing 4K and 66P+K gives off sit-down in stun or on counter hit, So he does have SOME guaranteed stuff. But out of everything, Zack's 8P could potentially be a sit-down stun in the making, just looking at the animation: A downward elbow smash into the enemy's head, and then making them sit down? TN could easily make it have sit-down properties.
Though he doesn't need it, it would be great to see. Just a suggestion.
Also, just a note: Fake rolling could be more useful if he could do the Shoryuken off of it (3P+K) by pressing 6P. It would look amazing too. But they should keep the ability to cancel it by guarding, holding or throwing.
Though he doesn't need it, it would be great to see. Just a suggestion.
Also, just a note: Fake rolling could be more useful if he could do the Shoryuken off of it (3P+K) by pressing 6P. It would look amazing too. But they should keep the ability to cancel it by guarding, holding or throwing.
It was all in London. Bruv, you need to come down here to support this games, I beg of you. Anyone else in NH or Yorkshiere or Manchester should also come down.
Get in touch with me via PM.
It was in LONDON??? I'm going to get there ASAP when there is anything DOA related now.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
BT 4K gives a 33KK launch as well. Not slow escapable if done correctly.
synce
Well-Known Member
Anyone have any ideas why they gave Bayman that backwards tank roll? It seems odd to me they'd give a heavyweight Ayane-level evasiveness, and also giving Kasumi a grappler-level throw with her new 33T. And for some reason even Ein has an OH (it does pathetic damage but I don't know the frames). Maybe they gave up on the character individuality thing?
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I think the literally just took DOA4 Ein and dropped him over into DOA5U with most everything still in tact. My guess is the OH is getting dropped but time will tell.
1KK still launches for him so I'm satisfied as long as 1KK, 4H+K, BT 1K6PK works as a max threshold juggle.
Looks like Zack's getting an OH. If he does, I guarantee it will be his 66T.
Back on-topic, TN probably gave Bayman the BTR (Backwards Tank Roll) for spacing, because of problems against fast characters like Kasumi and Rush Down characters. The Japanese probably wanted the universal OH, "To make it more like DOA4.". I'm all for it, but I'd like to see less of it, and to see it not abused, and for them to be slow and easy to spot.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
No, if that was the case, 3K would cause a SDS. That's not the case, on top of that he was said to get a few new moves. 6P+K being a CB also means it's slower than all it's previous versions as all CBs are 19-20 frames.
I'm actually worried he's gotten nerfed. I hope him getting his OH back is true. I'll touch on my mains for balance after a while.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Despite the factor of randomness in DOA4 being frowned upon, DOA4 was definitely a fun watch since you'd hardly ever see someone throw out the same stun game combo over and over. Maybe the same juggle but not the same stun game combo.
I guess it's one of those things you could say was fun for the spectator but not fun for the player... in my opinion anyway.
Bayman's BTR reminds me of Bob (Tekken).
There is some element of a bounce off of it. At the end of round 2 He uses 1KK which bounces Momiji off of the ground. After death, every hit is considered max threshold so this means there is the possibility.
I don't see why 1KK as a launcher wouldn't be possible because of 3K not SD stunning though especially when the last kick breaks threshold.
I guess it's one of those things you could say was fun for the spectator but not fun for the player... in my opinion anyway.
Bayman's BTR reminds me of Bob (Tekken).
There is some element of a bounce off of it. At the end of round 2 He uses 1KK which bounces Momiji off of the ground. After death, every hit is considered max threshold so this means there is the possibility.
I don't see why 1KK as a launcher wouldn't be possible because of 3K not SD stunning though especially when the last kick breaks threshold.
synce
Well-Known Member
I think our definitions of 'fun watch' are different lol I never watch DOA tourneys or matches unless someone is using my characters, which is very rare. It's not combo variety that makes matches interesting to me, it's the basics. I LOVE watching high level Tekken and VF, it's more exciting than a real fight.
But in DOA matches I rarely see effective blocking, spacing, or poking and I think the reason for that is there's no reason to go through that trouble when you can just counter. The luck element is too high. It's like watching someone play poker, I never understood why that was televised.