Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Everyone should know my stance on things by now.

Smaller hold damage, smaller lifebar in general. A few specific throws could do with a damage nerf if the lifebar is reduced (I'm looking at Alpha), but definitely not all of them. I prefer seeing damage done by strikes. They are more satisfying to do, and more satisfying to watch.
 

HaJiN

Member
- Offensive holds should be able to be sidestepped
- Parries should have longer recovery times than counters as a trade-off
- bring back jumping, and jumping punch and kick for all characters

Christie:
- Her 4P+K charge move should guard break at 37 frames instead of 30 (which means it would require a little bit of timing)
- Her Jaheiko sidestep should only be allowed to be done after moves in a string, not on its own. Instead, she can go into her DOA4 jaheiko stance on its own. If this can't be done, at least allow high moves that have tracking to hit her in sidestep.

Gen Fu:
- 6ppp should be -7 on block
- 33p should be -7 on block
- 3pp should be -7 on block
- his parry should have more recovery frames
- his sit down stuns should be more slow escapable. Currently, if you slow escape 1 frame too slow, you will get critical bursted after a sitdown stun

Kokoro:
- 6p+k p - the first hit should not stun on normal hit
- 2f+k k, the second hit should stun on normal hit

Ayane:
- Remove her backfacing critical burst, or at least make it a mid punch

Jann Lee
- The only thing that should connect after his dragon gunner is 66k

Alpha-152
- If her parry misses, it shouldn't guard break
- 7K should leave her at -6 or -7 on block
- her low throw should activate in 4 frames instead of 3 frames

Mila
- Remove her sidestep tackle

Pai
- If possible, bring back her VF4 style counters, her VF4 style ppp strings and its derivatives

Lisa
- her backfacing booty bump should be counterable, instead of behaving like a parry when countered

Helena
- backfacing 2p should behave like it did in DOA2 and DOA3 on hit.
 

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
- Offensive holds should be able to be sidestepped
- Parries should have longer recovery times than counters as a trade-off
- bring back jumping, and jumping punch and kick for all characters

Christie:
- Her 4P+K charge move should guard break at 37 frames instead of 30 (which means it would require a little bit of timing)
- Her Jaheiko sidestep should only be allowed to be done after moves in a string, not on its own. Instead, she can go into her DOA4 jaheiko stance on its own. If this can't be done, at least allow high moves that have tracking to hit her in sidestep.

Gen Fu:
- 6ppp should be -7 on block
- 33p should be -7 on block
- 3pp should be -7 on block
- his parry should have more recovery frames
- his sit down stuns should be more slow escapable. Currently, if you slow escape 1 frame too slow, you will get critical bursted after a sitdown stun

Kokoro:
- 6p+k p - the first hit should not stun on normal hit
- 2f+k k, the second hit should stun on normal hit

Ayane:
- Remove her backfacing critical burst, or at least make it a mid punch

Jann Lee
- The only thing that should connect after his dragon gunner is 66k

Alpha-152
- If her parry misses, it shouldn't guard break
- 7K should leave her at -6 or -7 on block
- her low throw should activate in 4 frames instead of 3 frames

Mila
- Remove her sidestep tackle

Pai
- If possible, bring back her VF4 style counters, her VF4 style ppp strings and its derivatives

Lisa
- her backfacing booty bump should be counterable, instead of behaving like a parry when countered

Helena
- backfacing 2p should behave like it did in DOA2 and DOA3 on hit.

So basically more nerfs? No please. We have enough as it is.
 

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Do we still want "critical bursts" back to their E3 2012 levels?

No, thanks.
The current DOA5 system is fine in terms of burst.

- Offensive holds should be able to be sidestepped
- Parries should have longer recovery times than counters as a trade-off
- bring back jumping, and jumping punch and kick for all characters

No, Offensive holds by definition are throws with hold properties.
You CAN THROW a sidestepping opponent.
And you CAN HOLD a sidestep attack.
Offensive holds are a combination of both scenarios and should be no different.

As far as Parries go, they give you way less damage despite giving a favorable state, and most importantly they CANNOT be done in stun. So, parries are fine as they are.

The problem with jumping was that it accidentally came out in many situations in previous iterations. I personally didn't have this problem much but that was the main complaint. The compromise we currently have of JUMP ATTACKS played out well in DOA5 and I am personally OK with this. (Although I do miss delayed jump attacks like in VF)
 

David Gregg

Well-Known Member
The only thing I was hoping for was more guaranteed combos and/or a longer threshold (which is fair imo if they're increasing the damage on holds). With nerfed force techs it feels like the game will be shifted in the direction of juggles anyway so why not make those changes?
 

HoodsXx

Well-Known Member
Alright so as for me. I would like the stun to launch to reward players better. If they could bring back the stun to launch to DOA2U status like they did in DOAD. Thaat would benefit us players who don't want to constantly have to play the stun game just to get a decent launch in. As foe force techs I don't know how you all feel about not being able to hold instantly after a force tech like in DOA4 but I would like that back in. So it forces you to be more defensive and also rewards the offending player, instead of putting him into another guessing situation that could turn it against him as soon as his move is thrown out.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
It's already been stated that the stun game isn't going anywhere and I do not believe this to be a bad system. However some tweaks need to be made so that it is more easy to make the most of it such as giving more characters natural combos and making it so that either launch height is at the max at all times or high without having to force a push to the threshold to get decent damage. I believe the stun system from doa2U is a good one.
 

HaJiN

Member
So basically more nerfs? No please. We have enough as it is.

Things need to be toned down. TN is somehow disillusioned by thinking that Christie is so underpowered that she needs buffs. Give me another character that can get a guard break that guarantees a follow up after 30 frames? 37 frames is the ballpark where characters tend to be granted a guard break that allows a guaranteed follow up. Her Jaheiko sidestep is also ridiculous. What makes it more ridiculous is that most characters only have good low and high moves that have tracking. The problem with that is that high tracking moves go over Christie's sidestep, and low tracking moves are normally slower. Mid moves that have tracking are mostly standalone moves that leave you at a crazy disadvantage when blocked, or are only present in the middle of a string. Either do something about the sidestep, or give everyone a quick mid tracking move that starts off a string. Personally, I vote for the former, because if the latter were to happen, sidestepping would be almost useless in general.

Gen Fu needs to be toned down in regards to getting -7 on block, because in older DOAs, those moves were low throw punishable. His sit down stuns are also crazy because the only way to escape getting hit with a critical burst is only if you time your slow escape perfectly. That happening is really rare. Christie gets a guaranteed critical burst after her QCB P, but only after a certain number of hits before it. That is balanced. Kasumi gets a guaranteed critical burst after 66kk, but the second kick is easily counterable, so that is balanced. It doesn't help that he has excellent recovery off his mid parries, which guarantee a follow up after it is successful. If it fails, he recovers very quickly, and his 11 frame elbow tends to beat out anything you can do.

Kokoro's 18 frame 6 p+k stuns on normal hit, and allows follow ups after. That move is too quick to react to, and if you sidestep the first hit, you will get hit with the second hit. As a trade off, her 2f+k k string should have the second hit stun as it did in DOA4. It will also make her mix ups better in regards to whether she will follow up with a low kick, or a mid punch, or her temporary stance after the first kick. Most low moves that stun on normal hit (and allow a follow up) activate in about 22 to 23 frames, and low moves that activate quicker normally have some sort of hitch, like being backfacing, or in a stance, at which point doing a low becomes more obvious. 18 frames is a bit much.

Ayane is already chock full of mix ups. She can easily go into forward facing or backfacing and critical burst you after a stun. Certain characters need different critical bursts to vary their game, such as Zack and Lisa, but Ayane does not. Helena's bokuho critical burst is mid punch, just like her standing critical burst. Ayane should have the same thing.

Alpha's parry is overpowered. (not her counters) The thing that makes it OP is that if the opponent can turn around in time and guard, they will get hit with a guard breaking move that leaves her at about +17 on block. That move should not guard break, and should leave her at about -5 on block. As for her low throw, there is no reason why she should have a 3 frame low throw. Make it 4 frames like it is for the rest of the grapplers.

Pai's counters are too weak, and they should function like they did in VF4, where they did considerably more damage. Her pppk, ppp2k, and ppp4k strings were also much faster then. In DOA5, the mix up is stupid because it is so slow and obvious.

As for Lisa, there is no reason why her booty bump move from backfacing should not be counterable. It's already a great move that leaves her at like -3 on block if I am not mistaken.


and Emperor Cow, jumping punch and kick like the way it was in DOA4 allowed for a better mix up game, especially when it came to dealing with wake up kicks. It is much easier to time than doing a regular move that evades lows. The only time where I can see jumping punch and kick causing trouble is when it came to doing Hayate's raijin in DOA4. But I believe they changed the moves' input in DOA5.

I might pass on being able to sidestep offensive holds, except for jumping offensive holds, like alpha's 8T. That should be sidesteppable. But the trade off with parries is that when they are used (while not stunned of course) the chance of a successful parry is increased because a mid parry will parry both mid kick, and mid punch. Parries should be used in a more skillful manner than simply being spammed and hoping to randomly get a parry off.
 

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Things need to be toned down. TN is somehow disillusioned by thinking that Christie is so underpowered that she needs buffs. Give me another character that can get a guard break that guarantees a follow up after 30 frames?
Akira Yuki?
 

Tokkosho

Well-Known Member
"As for Lisa, there is no reason why her booty bump move from backfacing should not be counterable. It's already a great move that leaves her at like -3 on block if I am not mistaken. " reason: it can be mid kick or mid punch countered. HaJiN
 

HaJiN

Member
Akira Yuki?

That is true, but his 6p+k is a carryover from VF5 FS, and it is a high. Akira also doesn't really have strings. most of his moves are only 2 and 3 hitters. That may be fine in VF, but in DOA, it is a problem for him. He has one low that stuns on normal hit and allows a follow up, and that activates in 25 frames. I think he needs that guard break.
 

FlamingMuffin

Active Member
Kokoro's 18 frame 6 p+k stuns on normal hit, and allows follow ups after. That move is too quick to react to, and if you sidestep the first hit, you will get hit with the second hit. As a trade off, her 2f+k k string should have the second hit stun as it did in DOA4. It will also make her mix ups better in regards to whether she will follow up with a low kick, or a mid punch, or her temporary stance after the first kick. Most low moves that stun on normal hit (and allow a follow up) activate in about 22 to 23 frames, and low moves that activate quicker normally have some sort of hitch, like being backfacing, or in a stance, at which point doing a low becomes more obvious. 18 frames is a bit much.


Alpha's parry is overpowered. (not her counters) The thing that makes it OP is that if the opponent can turn around in time and guard, they will get hit with a guard breaking move that leaves her at about +17 on block. That move should not guard break, and should leave her at about -5 on block.


Kokoro's 6P+K is also a high, so it can be countered at two levels. It doesn't allow any followup other than the canned string (free canceled it gives +3 with no SE and -1 at max SE). That, and it doesn't track like almost all lows that stun on NH do (Kasumi 1K, Hitomi 2F+K, Christie JAK 1K, etc etc). The followup is also easily SSed after the first is SSed. Or simply block the followup P and punish (-7). It's fine as it is (but apparently it's getting nerfed anyway, so this is moot).

Alpha's parry (like all parries) can't be done in stun. If she successfully parries, why should the opponent be given the chance to block and then gain advantage? +17 might be a bit much, but it definitely shouldn't be at -5. She's already usually at - after a successful counter, her parry doesn't need to be the same.
 

HaJiN

Member
"As for Lisa, there is no reason why her booty bump move from backfacing should not be counterable. It's already a great move that leaves her at like -3 on block if I am not mistaken. " reason: it can be mid kick or mid punch countered. HaJiN

I think you may have debunked my argument in regards to that move. I just checked in training, and it leaves lisa at -11 after a successful counter.
 

HaJiN

Member
Kokoro's 6P+K is also a high, so it can be countered at two levels. It doesn't allow any followup other than the canned string (free canceled it gives +3 with no SE and -1 at max SE). That, and it doesn't track like almost all lows that stun on NH do (Kasumi 1K, Hitomi 2F+K, Christie JAK 1K, etc etc). The followup is also easily SSed after the first is SSed. Or simply block the followup P and punish (-7). It's fine as it is (but apparently it's getting nerfed anyway, so this is moot).

Alpha's parry (like all parries) can't be done in stun. If she successfully parries, why should the opponent be given the chance to block and then gain advantage? +17 might be a bit much, but it definitely shouldn't be at -5. She's already usually at - after a successful counter, her parry doesn't need to be the same.

All moves have their ups and downs, but that low is 18 frames, and it shouldn't stun. That is excessively unreasonable. It was added in the patch, and was a poor decision on TNs part. 2f+kk is a better trade off that makes more sense.

As for Alpha-152, her parry should leave her at a disadvantage on block. It is already almost impossible to avoid getting hit by it if the parry is successful, but -5 is still safe, and still allows her to make use of her speed in order to maintain the advantage. If it leaves her at -4 or greater, people will bitch, because her 7k would still beat out most counterattacks. Even now her 7k leaves her at -5 on block, and if she attempts to do it again, it beats out a lot of counterattacks. Many people complain about that already.
 

FlamingMuffin

Active Member
All moves have their ups and downs, but that low is 18 frames, and it shouldn't stun. That is excessively unreasonable. It was added in the patch, and was a poor decision on TNs part. 2f+kk is a better trade off that makes more sense.

As for Alpha-152, her parry should leave her at a disadvantage on block. It is already almost impossible to avoid getting hit by it if the parry is successful, but -5 is still safe, and still allows her to make use of her speed in order to maintain the advantage. If it leaves her at -4 or greater, people will bitch, because her 7k would still beat out most counterattacks. Even now her 7k leaves her at -5 on block, and if she attempts to do it again, it beats out a lot of counterattacks. Many people complain about that already.


Hitomi's 2F+K is i19, Kasumi's is i20 and hell, Helena's 2F+K is i23. Do you honestly believe Kokoro's being 1-3 frames faster makes a significant difference? Combined with it being high/low and non-tracking, it should be faster. You aren't countering a good use of the aforementioned tools on reaction consistently, the animations are too non-descript.

7K when at -4 makes it i16, easily beaten out by jabs, 2Ps and 6Ps. The people that complain shouldn't be listened to, simple.
 

Project Bokuho

Lady Helena's Pet
Premium Donor
Where does Helena's PP2KP stand at the moment? Good tool (in my opinion at least), but discuss anyway please.
 
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