Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes

[HaJiN]

Hitomi's 2F+K is i19, Kasumi's is i20 and hell, Helena's 2F+K is i23. Do you honestly believe Kokoro's being 1-3 frames faster makes a significant difference? Combined with it being high/low and non-tracking, it should be faster. You aren't countering a good use of the aforementioned tools on reaction consistently, the animations are too non-descript.

7K when at -4 makes it i16, easily beaten out by jabs, 2Ps and 6Ps. The people that complain shouldn't be listened to, simple.

Yes, it does make a difference. Helena's is 23 frames, but the animation is easier to see, and that helps. It is also slow escapable, only allowing 6p as a follow up. Hitomi's low may be 19 frames, but if she hits you on normal hit, and you slow escape, you are at +1. Kasumi's low kick is also slow escapable, allowing no moves to connect afterward. Kasumi's and Hitomi's lows also don't have a follow up after them, and even though they are standalone moves, they are mostly done at the end of a string, making the mix up more obvious.

I personally don't have a problem fighting against alpha's 7k, but I hear the complaints, and when I use her, her 7k will still beat out counterattacks. The move isn't a poke. It does 62dmg on counter hit, and should leave her at a greater disadvantage on guard.

 

[crapoZK]

Basic Balances:

• Sidesteps should be tweaked to DOA3.1 properties.
• All holds when in stun should be increased by 5 frames.
• All of the attacks that make your opponent crouch should give guaranteed low throw.
• Wall properties should be that of DOA2's when you could tech roll around your opponent when downed on it.
• DOA3's second wall hit down animation and should NOT be able to wake up kick.
• Balanced recovery on most attacks (Especially Hitomi)
• More guaranteed stuns (Plays off better spacing)
• Moves shouldn't track the opponent after a successful sidestep.
• Better low evading attacks (Make all airborne attacks evade lows)
• 2 jabs should be guaranteed and cannot be held after the first jab has hit, but the follow up after the 2 jabs can be blocked or held.

Character Tweaks (For Characters that I think need so):
Zack:

• 7K needs to be back in the game with the inputs of 214K
• His 8K needs to relaunch again
• His low kicks need to have faster recovery or give off stun on hit
• Better recovery on fast moves, like on DOA2 and 3.

Leifang:

• Sabaki on 8K

Bayman and Leon:

• Rolls go under Mid strikes
• More stunning attacks
• More overheads
• OH should be the speed of Leifangs

Ein:

• Overheads give off bounce launch

Jann Lee:

• LESS stunning attacks
• DOA2 playstyle.

There will be more soon.

 

[Darth Lotonic X]

Same I think the ones that can be stepped like the jumping OH's. Should be steppable and the ones that are grounded should track like they do.

I think that jumping OH's should either be normal throws or linear. If I jump and you move, I shouldn't be able to magically readjust myself mid-air.

 

[Jaguar360]

Bayman and Leon:

• Rolls go under Mid strikes
• More stunning attacks
• More overheads
• OH should be the speed of Leifangs

I like your ideas, but why put Bayman and Leon together? They are completely different and are not clones anymore like in DOA2. Leon doesn't roll and his only OH's would probably be 33T an 66T. For Leon, I basically want him to have guaranteed ground throws like the other grapplers (especially Bayman) had in vanilla DOA5 and easier access to his air throw like in DOA3. He should also have more guard breaks and a few faster moves.
I think you've pretty much covered Bayman. There's not much that needs to be added or taken away from him.

 

[HaJiN]

rolls that avoid mids? He already has an OH after that roll, lets not make it worse.

As for increasing the hold length by 5 frames during a stun, don't you think that will enable more counter spamming?

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Basic Balances:

• Sidesteps should be tweaked to DOA3.1 properties.

Wait, .. What ?

 

[crapoZK]

rolls that avoid mids? He already has an OH after that roll, lets not make it worse.

As for increasing the hold length by 5 frames during a stun, don't you think that will enable more counter spamming?

INCREASING it makes it longer.

Wait, .. What ?

Or 3.2, whatever floats your boat man.

I like your ideas, but why put Bayman and Leon together? They are completely different and are not clones anymore like in DOA2. Leon doesn't roll and his only OH's would probably be 33T an 66T. For Leon, I basically want him to have guaranteed ground throws like the other grapplers (especially Bayman) had in vanilla DOA5 and easier access to his air throw like in DOA3. He should also have more guard breaks and a few faster moves.

I think you've pretty much covered Bayman. There's not much that needs to be added or taken away from him.

Sorry, my mistake on Leon. I know he has no rolls, but the rest of the points on there, I feel that Leon also needs.

 

[David Gregg]

Ground bounces may also become even more important if they're nerfing FTs. I saw a video of Eliot's

() and it's now a ground bounce (@ 2:10) on it's own when before it only ground bounced in the 10 hit combo. If it bounces high enough (which it looks slightly higher) you could make a combo out of that.

 

[HaJiN]

INCREASING it makes it longer.

do you mean the recovery from the counter, or the active frames of the counter?

On a side note, if you look at this video, at about 1:40, you see Alpha 152 get a critical burst off her 66p without doing anything beforehand. Now THAT is broken and needs to be fixed.

 

[Koompbala]

I think that jumping OH's should either be normal throws or linear. If I jump and you move, I shouldn't be able to magically readjust myself mid-air.

I agree I just worded it funky I'm a bit distracted at moment cause I'm editing my guide for forum viewing. I was just trying to reiterate the OH's should stay as they are. Like tinas 8T it shouldn't track and it doesn't which is good.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Or 3.2, whatever floats your boat man.

There were no sidesteps in DOA3, 3.1 or 3.2 ...
what the hell are you talking about?

The only sidestep like move was christie's Jakeiho stance which functions very similar to what we have now.

 

[crapoZK]

do you mean the recovery from the counter, or the active frames of the counter?

On a side note, if you look at this video, at about 1:40, you see Alpha 152 get a critical burst off her 66p without doing anything beforehand. Now THAT is broken and needs to be fixed.

Recovery from the counter.

Also on that video, WHAT THE HELL, that is stupid and broken, and if it is in the final build, there will be A LOT, and I mean A LOT of Alpha players.

There were no sidesteps in DOA3, 3.1 or 3.2 ...
what the hell are you talking about?

The only sidestep like move was christie's Jakeiho stance which functions very similar to what we have now.

Sidestep attacks. The sidestep attacks had amazing properties where the attacker would attack the air until your sidestep attack hit them. I want sidesteps to work like that. You know, actually evasive?

 

[UncleKitchener]

Character Tweaks (For Characters that I think need so):
Zack:

• 7K needs to be back in the game with the inputs of 214K
• His 8K needs to relaunch again
• His low kicks need to have faster recovery or give off stun on hit
• If necessary, give him a OH, because of his horrible throw game.
• Better recovery on fast moves, like on DOA2 and 3.

I disagree, he already has so many pokes and good mids. Giving him something with catch throw properties takes the piss. If you want catch throws on strikers, then Jann Lee makes sense and it's slow, but Zack has all this mix-up and you can't slow escape what he does. If you give a quick mix-up character a catch throw, you're taking the piss because then you might as well give the whole cast one too.

 

[Tokkosho]

I don't believe that's a cb it's just a crumple stun and te player didn't counter afterwards

 

[crapoZK]

I disagree, he already has so many pokes and good mids. Giving him something with catch throw properties takes the piss. If you want catch throws on strikers, then Jann Lee makes sense and it's slow, but Zack has all this mix-up and you can't slow escape what he does. If you give a quick mix-up character a catch throw, you're taking the piss because then you might as well give the whole cast one too.

I said if necessary, which means, if he is going to be a horrible character overall (Bad everything, no mix-up game, or anything like vanilla) in the new version (Which he probably won't), just give him something useful, which could be an OH. I know how stupid it sounds, I might just edit it out of that list. The rest of the points on that list are good though. Sorry for my stupid ideas.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Anyway we could get our hands on a build or something? I think it would be nice if we could get our hands on the build and just try out a few things? If they end up doing another one of those IGN events where we can test new builds.

I said if necessary, which means, if he is going to be a horrible character overall (Bad everything, no mix-up game, or anything like vanilla) in the new version (Which he probably won't), just give him something useful, which could be an OH. I know how stupid it sounds, I might just edit it out of that list. The rest of the points on that list are good though. Sorry for my stupid ideas.

I think you're really underestimating your own character.

I do disagree with a lot of the other points, but I think other members can give better reasons. But I would recommend not using the term 'overheads', because it's confusing and you might as well say 'mids'.

EMPEROR_COW, please tell this guy how skank Zack is.

 

[Brute]

I like holds in the game because they are a great tool for negating loops, stun-pokes and redundant/predictable spam behavior. That said, I don't like the idea of them being used as a comparably effective offense as holds/strikes as well as defense. With very few exceptions (such as expert holds or "power characters" known for their general damage especially relating to holds and throws), I think that the damage should not be incredibly high on holds, as I see them as more a defensive option than an offensive one. For example, Kasumi can realistically beat out almost every option Bass has strike-wise with anything. Holds and OHs make the Kasumi player have to actually think before tossing out 1PP/4PP at match start every time.

TL;DR: Not a fan of hold damage being increased.

 

[crapoZK]

UncleKitchener It would be a pleasure if they did that, though I don't think they'd do that in the west. They probably will.

 

[Matt Ponton]

On a side note, if you look at this video, at about 1:40, you see Alpha 152 get a critical burst off her 66p without doing anything beforehand. Now THAT is broken and needs to be fixed

That's not a CB!. That's a hi-counter blow crumple stun.

 

[UncleKitchener]

UncleKitchener It would be a pleasure if they did that, though I don't think they'd do that in the west. They probably will.

They did a couple of events last year, both with the demo and the last few builds of the game.