The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

Mr. Wah built a lovely match up table (linked in first post) to put the results of the discussion in, so if/when the discussion produces results, they should be easy to find.
Yeah, but those are only the number values. The stuff that gets lost is all of the info about the match up. So if you are looking for what people say about a match up you have to go through all the pages and opinions

It works even if players don't agree on a match up.
Ex: If someone is looking at the page for Hitomi match ups and see that Hitomi players think the vs Mila match is in Hitomi's favor but on the Mila page it says that the match up is in Mila's favor then they only have two places they need to look and can easily take into account what both sides think.
 

Ooobe

Active Member
That's absolutely still the case. No reason the sub-forums can't go into specific character match ups. This thread is for generating the numbers and a tier list.
 
That's absolutely still the case. No reason the sub-forums can't go into specific character match ups. This thread is for generating the numbers and a tier list.
This thread is not just for generating numbers otherwise they wouldn't be discussing the match ups on here anyways.

No reason the sub-forums can't go into specific character match ups.
Then page 2 and 3 of this thread have no purpose of going into detail of the Hitomi vs Mila match up and arguing about it.

What I am talking about is just a larger scale version of what was going on on the first page of this thread.
 

Ooobe

Active Member
Wow, triple post?! Just edit your last post if there's no other comments before you need to update something. Kind of a big deal here.
Yes, I believe Jeffcore and AngryWorm pretty much agreed this wasn't the place to discuss their personal match history. The idea of the discussion is to compare tools to come up with the numbers to build the list. At least that's what I thought it was. Just check the first post again.
 
People were talking about specific match ups since the second post of this thread. How can you compare tools and come up with numbers on a match up without going into detail about that specific match up.

Also in my first post I said we should all go to our own character threads and discuss the match ups there and then post the results as a whole here for better organization of match ups instead of talking about random match ups through the whole thread
 

Ooobe

Active Member
Shouldn't we go to our own respective character threads and discuss the matchups there and then post all the results here when we have a full understand of each matchup for our character. It just seems like the information is going to be scatter around again if we do it this way.
Sure, go ahead and do that and I think the specific match up discussions can take place here too.
Somehow you've lost me though, and I really don't want to be part of a whole page of discussing the discussion... so, I'm going to leave this alone now. Maybe someone can delete unnecessary stuff here again?
 
Sure, go ahead and do that and I think the specific match up discussions can take place here too.

No reason the sub-forums can't go into specific character match ups. This thread is for generating the numbers and a tier list

??? You just contradicted yourself.
I'll try and get you back on track then.
I was saying if we are going to discuss match ups we can organize it better to minimize the searching on match ups. Have all of a Characters match ups on one page( or in a few consecutive post) then go on to the next character. Then use the rest of the space after to discuss each others opinions on the match ups.

So instead of having to search through 20 pages for your characters match ups, they are all together and not lost in multiple post of others opinions.
 

d3v

Well-Known Member
I wish people would start working on figuring out actual win-loss ratios and debating those. That way Wah, or anyone else working on the chart (which includes me btw) can start making updates on it.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Right now I think the Mila:Hitomi match up is like 8:2 for Mila. (That's being generous)

Mila:Helena I want to say 7:3 or 6:4. If Helena gets Mila near a wall she can still kill her.
 
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Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
So where do we stand after NEC?

Kasumi is a high tier character. Just like in previous DOAs, what stops her from top is her safety issues. Anything after her initial pokes she is screwed. Her holds outside of advance mid-kick or her low kick hold she does mediocre damage, even on Hi Counter. The majority of her throws are still slow. Her NH damage is fairly weak from her throws to juggles. She is very limited at long range so at the back of the screen she loses fights easily. Personally I have no problem at the back of the screen with Kasumi and I will not lose easily because it. However, tool-wise, Kasumi doesn't have too many things that will allow her to close a long distance gap. These are things that prevent her from being top tier.

What definately makes her high tier is her ability to play the stun game and punish holds with launching throws taking a quarter of your life no matter which throw Kasumi uses. That's 100 pts of damge on Hi Counter, Kasumi throws you 3 times and the fight is over her Hi Counter throwing you. Now, with the new system mechanics Kasumi does not have to rely solely on that gameplay, the stun game. Kasumi has the ability to bypass the stun game for guaranteed damage and that damage is almost taking a quarter of life. The damage ranges from 71-93 pts of damage (it will take a quarter of life on Hi Counter hits), that damge is for both of her moves that allow her to bypass playing the stun game.

The first move is H+K followed by 6K ( I invented this shit FYI), this move is 17i, hold resistant (she takes no damage if you hold it) , she has follow ups from it so holding it isn't end all be all, and you can't fuzzy guard the low or mid option. H+K can also punish holds out of stun, meaning that you can watch a high or mid hold, wait, then get a Counter hit by striking with H+k. PPK will grant you all of the perks of the move as well. But H+K is all that is needed.

4H+K is the second move that grants her the ability to bypass the stun game, on NH hit it causes a sit down stun that can be SE'd. On Counter to Hi Counter it causes an unholdable sit down stun that guarantee her a launcher (3H+K) this move is safe, only grapplers can punish it and that's if they step up quick to do it because on block it pushes. So when players try to low hold from Kasumi's H+K, 4H+K will give you an unholdable stun as well.

H+K is the better unholdable stun but they both allow Kasumi to bypass the stun game when worked properly. So factoring in her usual play style; playing in the stun game to bait holds, Kasumi can now bypass that with unholdable stuns followed by damage as low as 71 pts of damage to as high as 98 pts of damage.

Low or mid tier characters cannot not do this but there's more.

As many of you should know, Kasumi has Untechables. They leave her at +9 to +14. The ones they will be worked the most are the ones that leave her at +9 or 10. The only problem with her untechables is that they are not as fluent as Helena's. you have to sacrifice damage for Kasumi's untechables and the need to setup them up is not worth doing all the time, unlike Helena. However, Kasumi does have a nasty force tech game, the frame advantage from it is ridiculous for a character at her speed level.

All of the characters have something crazy next to wall. Kasumi's wall game is one of the best wall games in doa5. She can re-launch any character and juggle them right back into wall ( I invented this shit FYI). No matter hit that You get slammed into the wall the damage output from the juggles is fairly high. My bad for not having the exact numbers on this. If you were watching me on stream I am sure you saw it.

Almost forgot, Kasumi now has a punish throw. Which is a problem for players that disrespected her by finishing things in doa4. Knowing she couldn't do anything about it. Now she can snatch up players for playing reckless. It is a typical punish throw but it helps defend herself better than before.

Kasumi in a ceiling area shoots up the tier list (top tier) for as long as she is in it. She has 3 extremely viable ways of putting you in the ceiling. 236T, 1T and 46H, all of these moves are a major part of her game play and you will be caught in at least 2 of them. Once you are caught by any of them Kasumi is taking half life (150 pts of damage).

Kasumi's damage output is high, to get to her damage she needs to get counter or hi counter hits to start with. I cant give exact numbers on this because combos/juggles vary after the counter or hi counter hit to initate the damage. Getting counter or hi counter hits would be difficult for her if was slow. By her being as fast as she is Kasumi will get the hit statues she needs to deal her damage. So Kasumi relying on Counter or Hi Counter hit to deal damage is not a problem for her in the slightest bit. Hi counter throws will cost you a quarter life (100 pts of dmg). Her advanced mid kick and low kick hold will cost you at least a quarter life.

Kasumi's parries now grant her guaranteed damage. Moves that are safe or pokes her parries will not give her anything. But she will eliminate 2 options with a parry. Moves that are unsafe or strings that are continued and she parries Kasumi will get a free knock down or she can launch. This does depend on what she parries but again she eliminates 2 options with one move and she gets guaranteed damage from it.

I am watching top 8 at NEC right now. So I will leave info to unknowing players of what Kasumi really is. I will continue this later because there is more if this isn't enough to make her high tier.
 

Murakame

Active Member
Kasumi's damage output is high, to get to her damage she needs to get counter or hi counter hits to start with. I cant give exact numbers on this because combos/juggles vary after the counter or hi counter hit to initate the damage. Getting counter or hi counter hits would be difficult for her if was slow. By her being as fast as she is Kasumi will get the hit statues she needs to deal her damage. So Kasumi relying on Counter or Hi Counter hit to deal damage is not a problem for her in the slightest bit. Hi counter throws will cost you a quarter life (100 pts of dmg). Her advanced mid kick and low kick hold will cost you at least a quarter life.

Allow me to assist you with this as this is something I have been saying for a long while. Every single combo I ever pull with Kasumi starts with counter hit so I'm familiar with the damage values. To give you guys an example using her unholdables on counter hit: 4PP, 4H+K, 3H+K, PKK7K 6P+KKK is 116 points of damage. Add a jab before the unholdable thats 122 points. so roughly 40% damage from this combo. 4PP, H+K, 6K, PKK7K 6P+K KK is 118 damage. 124 with a jab before H+K. So basically after 3 hits, you lose more than a third of your health and you have very little chances to stop it. Those of you that have played me on PSN know everytime I pull a kasumi combo you lose a shitload of health.

As for punishing holds she gets 97 damage for no work using 33T. 236T has the potential to outdamage this in an open area on lightweights, and with wallsplat on heavier weights. For example, midscreen hi counter 236T followed by this combo: KK7K, 6P+K, PPKK is 112 damage. Even more if they happen to hit the wall after PPKK. Unfortunately this combo only works on lightweights in my experience. 236T Hi counter on middleweights using the basic 6K, PPKK is 99+. So regardless you are losing a third of your health. For 1T this universal combo of KK7K, 6P+K, 4PKK does 84 damage, 28% health. I don't even need to get into how ridiculous 236T is on stages with a ceiling. All I gotta say is if she catches you with 236T on hi counter...lol GG bro.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Wow. AP said what I had been saying all along about her. But of course somebody is gonna argue tooth & nail about this statement.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
My only gripe is saying she's high tier (Or top tier with a ceiling). Not that I'm disagreeing, just didn't give any match ups, and there are quite a few characters with very similar tools and much better tools. There are a handful of characters that take 60% and up under a ceiling.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
I wonder if Mr Wah will delete Allan Paris' post ...

There's nothing to delete. I am explaining why she is a high tier character. When I am done commentating and I get to a CPU. I will give everything else that prove that.

As far as matchups go, Jeff, I will gladly do that. It's not pretty for quite a few characters. In a ceiling area most characters have 1 way of getting you up there. Which means I can play damage control and not give up that option for that character. Busa is the only exception to this because he has like 4 ways of getting you up there and he's able to continue with dumb damage.

@jde: there's nothing to argue with me because no one knows. That's why sideway things are constantly said about her. But it's cool, I am not spewing theory fighting. If players don't know now, they will soon.

Pertaining to this topic I am not on the position right now to give match ups. I know people want extreme detail and I can gladly give that. Let me get home from NEC and whoever wants argue with me. Lol. Ok.
 

DR2K

Well-Known Member
So does Helena's force tech game put her at top tier? Or does her lack of safety, general damage, and slow moves hurt her? It seems like her force tech game goes beyond match ups, it's an increidble tool that changes the way the game is played. I guess match ups matter to her at neuteral, but she can completely negate that.

Here's my match up chart for her before the tech was discovered.
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/3-7-is-the-new-5-5-helena-match-up-thread.1353/
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
I though Hele's force tech was already possible with most characters, which would make Helena bad again. What the hell happened to that¿
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Helena still has that she can do it from any launch height. People don't like the guessing afterwards, but every option that doesn't launch right away or throw still offers 2 chances to guess.
 
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