Lei Fang changes in DOA5U

[NightAntilli]

Oh. When I mentioned Hayate and Busa, I meant that they also get a damage and stun boost with their 2H+K.

In any case, my V1.04 videos are up in the other thread in case anyone is interested:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/ready-to-lose-the-lei-fang-video-thread.1272/page-6#post-156366

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

That is plainly false. It's +6 on normal hit with fastest stagger escape. It's +14 with no stagger escape at all. Considering that it's not that hard to reach fastest stagger escape, +6 is probably the best you're gonna get in most situations. If not, +10 at best against any average player that knows about stagger escapes. And it remains +6 as a counter hit and as a high counter hit. That's what sucks about it.

I must have put the words fastest stagger escape without placing its frames (+6) by mistake.. (which is why I put the comboing into K as a separate part) ... (give me a break it was 5 am here .. ) ... (I re-edited the post with the (and +6) )

Still, all the points I said remain valid.

As for high level play, I assure you the move is very much useful and viable. (ask Sorwah .. lol)

Even after conditioning the opponent there will be situations where they do NOT stagger even at high level.
there will also be situations where they will hold.

Also, contrary to what you may believe.. even the Japanese say its pretty hard to react to, especially considering all the variants leading to it and the possible mixup along with it. (which is still part of the whole value of the move)

the Stand alone does NOT suck.. its great from range especially for stopping walk backs.

and the +6 is great for OH... her fastest OH is i16 (66H+P) meaning if they throw out any mid or high thats instant hi counter. and it would only lose to an i9 jab if the opponent was fast enough to SE and throw the jab.

as for the advantage from range, what are you looking for ? + 40 ? I'm talking about the range game ... its for a poke out, not for follow up in this situation ..

the moves weakness is blatantly clear for a mid-high level player.. if you block it, then you can mess leifang up. theres no rocket science here.

it's still an amazing tool ... not to mention a high crush.

 

[NightAntilli]

It's a high crush that's inferior to her now non-existent crouching 2K, despite it being slower and unsafer. 2H+K has its uses. But that doesn't make it a good move, simply because it doesn't reward you for landing it on a counter or high counter hit. Everything is as if it's a normal hit, while the lows of pretty much everyone else, will give you a bigger reward if you land it on something else than normal hit. Leifang's lows simply suck, which means a standing blocking opponent will be a pain to open up since you have to take more risks than most other characters that have her speed.

And no I don't want +40. It should be at least +0 however, when you land something that slow from far away, when the character sucks at long range.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

Are you referring to all variations of 2H+K or just the move on it's own? cause I'm having trouble believing that you could think that the variations of 2H+K aren't good. For instance, 3P2K is great. It keeps people on their toes. After all who wants to get hit by 3P4P which grants you a guaranteed P+K launch. ( if memory serves me correctly. )

I can name several characters that don't get much ( if anything. ) off their standalone 2H+K, so why should Lei be any different? =S

For instance, Kasumi's 2H+K is practically useless. It's slow, and knocks the opponent down meaning you kinda have to retreat a bit to avoid a wake up kick or attempt to psuedo-tech or flip over them. At least Lei upon a successful 2H+K still has the advantage. It might not lead to a deeper stun, but an advantage is still better than having to deal with the ground game. ( well, in my opinion anyway. )

 

[Yoyo]

Are you referring to all variations of 2H+K or just the move on it's own? cause I'm having trouble believing that you could think that the variations of 2H+K aren't good. For instance, 3P2K is great. It keeps people on their toes. After all who wants to get hit by 3P4P which grants you a guaranteed P+K launch. ( if memory serves me correctly. )

I can name several characters that don't get much ( if anything. ) off their standalone 2H+K, so why should Lei be any different? =S

For instance, Kasumi's 2H+K is practically useless. It's slow, and knocks the opponent down meaning you kinda have to retreat a bit to avoid a wake up kick or attempt to psuedo-tech or flip over them. At least Lei upon a successful 2H+K still has the advantage. It might not lead to a deeper stun, but an advantage is still better than having to deal with the ground game. ( well, in my opinion anyway. )

Yes 3p4p gets a guarateed P+K

 

[NightAntilli]

Yeah. Just the standalone. The mixups are definitely good against the average player, despite that sidestepping beats all the options. The mixups are just ok against a blocking opponent because of that, but are good against a stunned opponent in general. A smart opponent that knows Leiang will almost never low hold for the 2H+K though.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

Yeah. Just the standalone. The mixups are definitely good against the average player, despite that sidestepping beats all the options. The mixups are just ok against a blocking opponent because of that, but are good against a stunned opponent in general. A smart opponent that knows Leiang will almost never low hold for the 2H+K though.

I'm fairly certain 3PK tracks, and has the other 2 kicks on-top of that. She has a lot from 3P. If people wanna SS after 3P, be my guess. Her 3PKK leads to red critical stun anyway, seems a bit risky to just always SS. Which is an even worse situation to be in, in comparison to her 3P4P.

 

[NightAntilli]

I'm fairly certain 3PK tracks, and has the other 2 kicks on-top of that. She has a lot from 3P. If people wanna SS after 3P, be my guess. Her 3PKK leads to red critical stun anyway, seems a bit risky to just always SS. Which is an even worse situation to be in, in comparison to her 3P4P.

Ok that's true. I didn't really think of 3PK so I stand corrected when I said sidestepping beats everything. I have a reason for it though, which is the following.

3PK, is only likely to catch someone sidestepping if the K is delayed a bit. When used immediately, almost no one will be sidestepping. You see, the animations of 3PK is quite fast, that it basically falls into the same category of say 3PP, or 3P2P in terms of reaction speed. Simply blocking them is wiser, because none of the fast moves are going to go low or break your defense.
Moves like 3P4P and 3P2H+K are slower and also telegraph being slow, giving time to react for sidestepping. You generally know it must be one of those two, and not something else that she has in her arsenal. You know there are only two possibilities there with the mixup. If the K is delayed however, the person might be thinking that either 4P or 2H+K is coming out, which is where you'd catch them. And generally you won't be catching them sidestepping with the kick, but trying to hit you since they think you canceled out your move. It's pretty easy to make a distinction between certain animations.

The (3)P2P follow-ups however are all definitely sidestepable. One sidestep beats P, 2H+K and P+K after it.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

3PK tracks yes but it fails miserably characters with a crouching sidestep such as Cristie, Kokoro, Akira.. etc.

In those particular matchups you're much better off with 3P2P.

Oh and 3P4P doesnt guarantee P+K on fastest SE. Only thing guaranteed I can think of is 6P (not at home)

 

[FatalxInnocence]

I dunno, 3PK has 2 hits after it, not respecting it is a dumb move in my opinion. The 3PKK stun is amazing. Of course they can counter you but isn't that the case with most things lol.

Will a SS K ( using Kokoro as an example cause I actually know her =S not sure about Akira & Christie. ) beat the 3PKK? or will it interrupt the 2nd K? I don't think her SS P would interrupt Lei's 3PKK. It's not exactly the fastest move. I haven't actually tested this though. Oh well! things to do tonight I suppose ;D

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I dunno, 3PK has 2 hits after it, not respecting it is a dumb move in my opinion. The 3PKK stun is amazing. Of course they can counter you but isn't that the case with most things lol.

Will a SS K ( using Kokoro as an example cause I actually know her =S not sure about Akira & Christie. ) beat the 3PKK? or will it interrupt the 2nd K? I don't think her SS P would interrupt Lei's 3PKK. It's not exactly the fastest move. I haven't actually tested this though. Oh well! things to do tonight I suppose ;D

That was the point i was trying to send across. Kokoros ssK is crouching. 3PK will always lose as the tracking move is a high and will whiff.

3P2P has followups as well. it may not be registered as a tracking move since the 2P can be sidestepped on its own. But when u look at the whole of 3P2P, it corrects its positioning to track if the opponent SSed the 3P. There are alot of strings like that in the game. But for a character like leifang who lacks a directs SS mid or low.. 3P2P becomes of great value.

 

[Hikari-Senca]

Don't know if anyone knows about this already, but does anyone just use K,H+K after 46H? I've found that you can just omit the usual 3P, 64P follow up and just go right to K,H+K for more damage and just use the usual enders to finish the combos.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

why is it more damage?

 

[Hikari-Senca]

I...don't really know to be honest. I don't know if it's because of less hits in the combo or a weird damage scaling bug but for some reason, it literally does more damage. People can try this in practice and see for themselves. I was surprised no one has done it in a match so I thought I let people know about this.

 

[StrikerSashi]

That's interesting. I'm not home right now, but I'll check it during locals.

 

[NightAntilli]

Yeah I can confirm it. Very weird. It probably has to do with damage scaling. What's even weirder is that 6H doesn't give the same result. With 6H the 3P, 64P setup does more damage, but with 46H, using KH+K does more damage.

Edit:
I think I figured out why. After 46H, 3P does zero damage. Look at the health bar.

DOA sux.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I tested it in locals and it's just that 64H doesn't "combo" into 3P. The damage from the expert hold isn't included in the damage. Starting 3P 64P still does more damage, but KH+K looks like it does more damage 'cause 64H 3P doesn't combo but 64H K does. It's still unescapable, though, 'cause they're backturned and need to turn around before blocking so... Maybe if it's something like Leifang mirrors and the other Leifang does a backturned mid parry on the first frame or something like that? But then you should just 214T.

So just do the 3P 64P.

 

[Hikari-Senca]

Yeah...he's right. Just looked at it again. Despite what the numbers and health bar says, in an actual match, 3P, 64P is still the best option. It's just some weird glitch that doesn't show it in practice. =/ Thanks for testing, Striker.

 

[StrikerSashi]

What do you guys do for the wall throw (214T with back to wall)? I'm getting 103, but is there a better combo?

 

[ninjaguy446]

What do you guys do for the wall throw (214T with back to wall)? I'm getting 103, but is there a better combo?

Not sure if it does more, but this is what I do.

214T 3P 64P 6PP 3PP6PP

The 3PP6PP MAY whiff once in awhile. PP6PP is more reliable, but I still do the former.