Chris Harris
Well-Known Member
The hold in DoA is something that will more than likely always be in the game. Being able to counter while in stun and while out of stun. While taking the hold out of stun would be interesting to the game I think they would have to completely revamp the attacks, stuns, throws, and probably add escape options for throws. That's not about that debate though it's about how the hold is nerfed and how it will change the way DoA is played (unless they change more things then I'll have to do another one x_x)
So the main way they nerfed the hold was by adding more recovery to it. Now while you can legit react to the hold you would still have to be waiting for it in some form. Now that the recovery is nerfed it actually opens a few more options for the attacker that wasn't present before because of how quick the recovery was.
Now in other DoA's the hold damage was pretty legit as a defensive option because of the insane damage you could get and the recovery of it. In DoA[4] which most people liked (mainly because it was accessible) you could do anywhere from 30%-60% depending on the environment. It didn't end there either because that was just the simple use for it. Another use for it defensively was using it against attacks that stunned you but you could hold before the ATTACKER recovered which at some points put you at neutral. With that option you could actually hold and throw out high evasive moves (crushes) so it killed a lot of options offensively.
In DoA[5] because they nerfed the hold you don't get that type of damage on AVERAGE. You get very low damage that is equal to or less than what would happen if you went for a launcher. In DoA[4] even IF you went for the launcher you could still do less damage compared to their hold damage. So because of this the attacker has a good reason to pursue a strike/throw mix up that can net him more damage than the defender. This was a main problem in DoA[4] with the hold because the defender had so much more control in a fight because of that damage.
The other way the hold was used in DoA[4] was to completely kill mix ups with the "Just Frame" hold which is basically holding instantly as you were stunned. You could hold instantly out of any stun and depending on what stun that was used you could potentially be back to neutral or in some horrific cases the defender would be at an advantage. You could hold and block, hold and throw evasive, or even hold throw quick mid. Usually it was throw evasive attack or block which was a strong because it forced the attacker to become greedy giving the defender control. A good example of this is Hitomi doing 6p,k for a stun (in DoA [4]) and free canceling the string for a strike mix up. If you hold instantly as the knee hits my only option is to prefire a low throw to "punish" it (low holds were commonly used for the JF hold). So if I was even off by a second with my low throw I would be hit by a launcher or mid attack which would in turn stun me. I would have already had to made to my mind about this situation and go for it because the hold recovers so fast. The common thing to do if you thought someone would hold when you stunned them was go for a big throw since it net the most damage for you. So in the above scenario if I went for a big throw and he JF countered he could actually HCB me for a ton of damage.
In DoA[5] this is something that you will see attempted but can be countered hard. Doing a hold in this manner now doesn't leave you with that many options now. Though they are there because the recovery was increased it takes too much time to use certain attacks and it even allows the use of more attacks. In DoA[5] using attacks that stun like that you can actually slow escape them unless the string is being finished without cancelling or if it's a little deeper you commit with jabs. With the above example in DoA[5] if someone was to hold that quickly out of stun you are still at strong advantage. You could even throw the whiffed hold if you are looking for a hold and still press your advantage. Stuns like Hitomi's 6p+k (DoA[4]) could be JF held and a crush could be thrown out but in DoA[5] you have such an advantage with it you can even play the wait and see game.
Now to keep this short as I could go on for a lot longer I'll just touch on attacks and slow escaping. These also have a big part in how the game will be played now that the hold has been nerfed.
Attacks now don't stun nearly as much. In DoA [4] pretty much EVERY attack stunned in some form or way. Since there was no sidestep you would have to pretty much just "dog fight" in every exchange to try to get damage which consisted of raw guesses for counter damage, throw damage, and punish damage. You could try to go for combo damage with a launcher but in DoA[4] you had to increase the stuns 2-4 times to even equal the damage the defender could potentially get in those 2-4 guesses. So now you don't have everything stunning so now you aren't holding as much because you aren't getting that type of damage (or at least doing them blindly).
The other thing with attacks that do happen to stun, they can all be slow escaped. So now you have a stronger option when you get stunned since all stuns aren't so heavy that you can't slow escape them. You don't need to hold and even though you CAN it is much more risky considering the damage the attacker gets for going for a launcher or throw. There are stuns that you can still hold out of but the attacker has full control of that situation because you can't actually slow escape the stun because you don't recover standing.
Feel free to add to this conversation as I think many people don't understand how this completely changes the meta game.
So the main way they nerfed the hold was by adding more recovery to it. Now while you can legit react to the hold you would still have to be waiting for it in some form. Now that the recovery is nerfed it actually opens a few more options for the attacker that wasn't present before because of how quick the recovery was.
Now in other DoA's the hold damage was pretty legit as a defensive option because of the insane damage you could get and the recovery of it. In DoA[4] which most people liked (mainly because it was accessible) you could do anywhere from 30%-60% depending on the environment. It didn't end there either because that was just the simple use for it. Another use for it defensively was using it against attacks that stunned you but you could hold before the ATTACKER recovered which at some points put you at neutral. With that option you could actually hold and throw out high evasive moves (crushes) so it killed a lot of options offensively.
In DoA[5] because they nerfed the hold you don't get that type of damage on AVERAGE. You get very low damage that is equal to or less than what would happen if you went for a launcher. In DoA[4] even IF you went for the launcher you could still do less damage compared to their hold damage. So because of this the attacker has a good reason to pursue a strike/throw mix up that can net him more damage than the defender. This was a main problem in DoA[4] with the hold because the defender had so much more control in a fight because of that damage.
The other way the hold was used in DoA[4] was to completely kill mix ups with the "Just Frame" hold which is basically holding instantly as you were stunned. You could hold instantly out of any stun and depending on what stun that was used you could potentially be back to neutral or in some horrific cases the defender would be at an advantage. You could hold and block, hold and throw evasive, or even hold throw quick mid. Usually it was throw evasive attack or block which was a strong because it forced the attacker to become greedy giving the defender control. A good example of this is Hitomi doing 6p,k for a stun (in DoA [4]) and free canceling the string for a strike mix up. If you hold instantly as the knee hits my only option is to prefire a low throw to "punish" it (low holds were commonly used for the JF hold). So if I was even off by a second with my low throw I would be hit by a launcher or mid attack which would in turn stun me. I would have already had to made to my mind about this situation and go for it because the hold recovers so fast. The common thing to do if you thought someone would hold when you stunned them was go for a big throw since it net the most damage for you. So in the above scenario if I went for a big throw and he JF countered he could actually HCB me for a ton of damage.
In DoA[5] this is something that you will see attempted but can be countered hard. Doing a hold in this manner now doesn't leave you with that many options now. Though they are there because the recovery was increased it takes too much time to use certain attacks and it even allows the use of more attacks. In DoA[5] using attacks that stun like that you can actually slow escape them unless the string is being finished without cancelling or if it's a little deeper you commit with jabs. With the above example in DoA[5] if someone was to hold that quickly out of stun you are still at strong advantage. You could even throw the whiffed hold if you are looking for a hold and still press your advantage. Stuns like Hitomi's 6p+k (DoA[4]) could be JF held and a crush could be thrown out but in DoA[5] you have such an advantage with it you can even play the wait and see game.
Now to keep this short as I could go on for a lot longer I'll just touch on attacks and slow escaping. These also have a big part in how the game will be played now that the hold has been nerfed.
Attacks now don't stun nearly as much. In DoA [4] pretty much EVERY attack stunned in some form or way. Since there was no sidestep you would have to pretty much just "dog fight" in every exchange to try to get damage which consisted of raw guesses for counter damage, throw damage, and punish damage. You could try to go for combo damage with a launcher but in DoA[4] you had to increase the stuns 2-4 times to even equal the damage the defender could potentially get in those 2-4 guesses. So now you don't have everything stunning so now you aren't holding as much because you aren't getting that type of damage (or at least doing them blindly).
The other thing with attacks that do happen to stun, they can all be slow escaped. So now you have a stronger option when you get stunned since all stuns aren't so heavy that you can't slow escape them. You don't need to hold and even though you CAN it is much more risky considering the damage the attacker gets for going for a launcher or throw. There are stuns that you can still hold out of but the attacker has full control of that situation because you can't actually slow escape the stun because you don't recover standing.
Feel free to add to this conversation as I think many people don't understand how this completely changes the meta game.
