Yes, but if VF's system was universal, it wouldn't be something that would dominate the game. It doesn't even dominate for those characters. That's what I'm saying. It shows how counters can be correctly implemented without breaking a game.
One thing about the universality of the 0i hold in DOA versus other mechanics, particularly VF, yes VF counter holds are different (slightly tighter windows, restricted to a few characters), DrDogg was quite right that they don't dominate in that system because there are other options.
What is universal? The VF evade (up or down as an attack comes in). While not an exact comparison, it is more equivalent to the DOA counter a couple of ways, now, because its universal to every character, easy to do, instant, avoids attacks and provide opportunity for damage etc.
Of course it's quite different in that you can't evade while in hitstun and it doesn't have canned damage, but you can do it at disadvantage and its less punishable than a DOA counterhold. (The DOA holds also force a stop or reset to neutral, rather than (usually) an opportunity to turn into a damaging combo.)
However, it is one of the main things that changes the overall metagame in VF, and every character has it. So, for VF's system, it holds a similar place as defensive holds do for DOA.
It is separate to the Offensive Move sidestep, which does not have evasive qualities (like Free Stepping, that's more for positioning).
The point of saying all this is that even if you did all the other things people suggest it wouldn't just turn it into "poor man's VF" mechanically, it still has its own unique differences, just based on a similar principle of universality for some mechanics. Its part of what makes these games feel logical, accessible and consistent - even if these two defensive mechanics work differently, they have a similar effect on their respective metagames.
- Quite a few characters can kill you in 3-4 counterholds in DOA5.
- You can still use counterholds to avoid high attacks, while countering low attacks.
- You can still use counterholds to escape situations that would normally offer guaranteed damage in other fighters.
- You can still play the DOA4 stun/forced guessing game because, while the counterhold recovery is longer, as soon as you get hit mid-stun, the recovery is canceled and you can counter again.
While I agree that the stun system is an issue, it's clear that the counterholds are still a problem.
You forgot the most important thing. VF doesn't have a universal counter system. The counter system in VF is more of a character match-up strategy than anything else.
Good points. As I elaborated, there is a universal evasion system in VF, so their apple is our orange, they serve a similar purpose though.
On the counter hold issues:
- Damage should definitely stay relatively low for counter holds. I equated them above to "neutral resets", which is a good enough result for the defender without significant damage.
- make low counters vulnerable to high hit or longer recovery, or just use the following solution:
- extend the recovery of holds if hit. Allow the person to hold again, just add to the "recovery clock" of a subsequent hold while still in that stun. So if you hit someone, they counter, you hit them again at another height, they can counter again, but that second counter will have a few frames extra recovery, making it worse for them if they spam it while being hit.
