Dead Or Alive 5 E3 Build Experience

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
So basically, all we've managed to do in DOA 5 is add a mechanic that slightly brings a meta-game to "DOA 4"; while nerfing holds.
This is some progress and is good, I suppose.
It would be nice to make the game so that CB can't be ignored-- for all characters. (e.g. sit-down stuns with follow-ups)

In the time we have, its the best we can get. Lets hope for the best of this system in September.

No, they've also changed the stun properties, lessened the stuns, extended the recovery on holds, changed the conditions under which you can do a hold (both feet on ground), added lift stuns to wall hits for free combos... its quite a different game.

On a related note to some of the earlier discussion here, I played a tiny bit of DOA2 again this weekend and was impressed with the short stun threshhold and high launch heights, I'm sure that still feels like DOA... :) (I remember Manny's quoted DOA2 as his preferred DOA)
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Basically, Character models, move sets and things like that are all pretty much done. what they choose to fix from these tests is either an overall mechanic or a character specific tweak.

I see. Let me rephrase my statement.

I know a lot more about the development of the game than you do. It's not done. Tecmo is not just sitting on it. You're completely and totally wrong about that.

That's the main reason I haven't played Tekken heavily since Tekken 4; you play against say, a Bryan player, and if he's really good, he can launch, get 4 or 5 hits, then turn it into a ground juggle and get you for another 3 or 4 hits, all the while, you can't tech on landing. It's guaranteed damage, to the EXTREME level.

In most cases, the launcher is either high, doesn't track or is unsafe. If you play better defense, it isn't a problem. Even if you do get hit, there's no "ground juggle". Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're referring to, but Bryan and several other characters can extend their juggles if you don't tech, or go for a "semi-tech trap" if you do. Again, not guaranteed.

On the topic of holds and the stun system, and the fact that you can still low hold out of stun and make your opponent miss with a mid or high, what would you change then, Dogg? It seems the easiest fix would be to make it so mids hit, but that doesn't fix the issue with high attacks. Maybe low holds out of stun should lead to an unholdable stun animation if hit with an attack afterwards? I dunno, I'm just throwing that out there, but both seem like options, though both are highly unlikely to actually be made.

Mids already hit low holds. Highs should also hit low holds, but a quick fix would just be more unholdable stuns.

Let me answer or address each of your statements here Bryan.

Most of what you said is completely clueless to what makes a competitive fighting game. It's clear that you really need to move away from DOA for a moment and get competitive at other fighters. That means going to Evo and making it out of your pool in a game that isn't DOA. You would educate yourself tremendously, and we'd be able to avoid all of this because you'd actually understand that your ideas are bad... very, very bad.

That said, I'll address some of the more blatant issues in your post for clarification.

All characters in 3 moves or less? I clearly remember Hitomi and Hayabusa not being able to do that. What set ups are you using for them and are they as good as everyone else's?

See, this is the problem. Hayabusa and Hitomi can both CB in 2, 3 or 4 hits. You didn't bother learning how to use CB and how the system really works, you just said CBs aren't good and left it with that.

Your article makes it clear you didn't really try to learn anything new about the E3 build. For example, you stated Hitomi is really safe, when in fact she has less than 10 safe attacks. Just like how you say Kasumi has a better CB setup than most other characters, when in fact she has one of the worst CB setups.

It's like you weren't even playing the same game as the rest of us at E3.

OK but there isn't any move in DOA that gives you that much advantage on hit that keeps you from holding.

Off the top of my head, Akira and Christie both have attacks that give you enough frame advantage to prevent a hold. These attacks also execute quickly. I'm sure there are more, but I came up with those examples after thinking for about 7 seconds... maybe less.

DOA5 is going to have a healthier tournament life based on the changes already in there and there is no way it will ever be like DOA4 and that's obviously a good thing.

I guarantee you that the E3 build of DOA5 would not see any better tournament life than DOA4. It's a huge improvement, but it's not quite there yet. Your suggestions are a big step backward and would only hurt the potential tournament life of DOA5. The reaction to your article should make that clear.

Exactly, and trust me they are taking in thoughts from everyone everywhere including here, DOAW and TKP. Thank you Team Ninja for checking everywhere!

And we're getting swimsuits for the girls thanks to those suggestions. Here, our number one focus is to get a game worthy of a solid tournament scene. The numerous conflicting suggestions from you are not helping that cause at all.

You find it interesting that I posted on all DOA websites?

No, I find it interesting that you made a clear and concise post on DOAW and TKP, then made a status update here. It wasn't until after we had torn apart your article and called it utter nonsense and factually incorrect that you finally decided to make a proper post here.

BTW everyone Powerblows give you a wall bounce on stages like Boxing rings or ropes.

This is partially incorrect. The boxing ring ropes do not bounce at all. As of the main E3 build, the ropes act like a wall.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I actually got the ropes to bounce Doc, but you have to do it at a very specific distance and angle. It's not a point blank thing.

Easy to miss. Didn't have a second person around at the time so I wasn't able to see if it was an unholdable bounce or not.
 

MrMoon360

Well-Known Member
In most cases, the launcher is either high, doesn't track or is unsafe. If you play better defense, it isn't a problem. Even if you do get hit, there's no "ground juggle". Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're referring to, but Bryan and several other characters can extend their juggles if you don't tech, or go for a "semi-tech trap" if you do. Again, not guaranteed.

He was probably referring to "ground bounce".
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I honestly find if funny that Rikuto had to repeat himself multiple times(some times in the same thread mind you) to get his point across....Generally I understand situation and I just really want to sitdown and break this game down to it's core. But I do find it interesting when Rikuto talks about game theory(if you can Rikuto can you PM me to enlighten me on the subject?).

Because some people don't like to read. Because some people only read the first and last page of any given thread and try to keyboard commando shit like they know what they are talking about. And because other people don't like to be wrong, so they put any "inconvenient" posts out of sight and out of mind. Easy to overlook one post, difficult to overlook five that keep being thrust in front of you every time you open your mouth... so I just keep posting the same information over, and over, and over again until it sinks in. Maybe I have to turn my avatar into House again to intimidate people into reading what I say instead of glancing over it.

Sirlin has written a lot of of articles that use Game Theory as a foundation. A general wiki link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory


For being a wiki link the first quote pretty much sums up most of what I'm attempting to get across.

"Game theory is the study of strategic decision making. More formally, it is "the study of mathematical models of conflict and cooperation between intelligent rational decision-makers."

Long story short, you need to be able to make rational choices before game theory is even applicable. See the problem?

And of course, the good Sirlin stuff is all here. He actually makes mention of DOA specifically in at least one of these I know of.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/rock-paper-scissors-in-strategy-games.html

http://www.sirlin.net/article-archive/


http://www.sirlin.net/article-archive/
 

TRI Mike

Well-Known Member
Why do the newer players always argue with the vets, Allan? Always. It's like they assume we got to where we are from luck or something... and they actually presume to understand the system better than us, while ignoring everything we tell them.

I think this is the most important thing that has been said in the thread.

But the fact that some are vets and some are newcomers doesn't necessarily mean that the new players have to be around kissing the veteran's asses. They can make mistakes too and be wrong about things in their own games. Manny's statement proves that.

All these discussions and arguing about the system being good or not only makes me want to play even more. I can't wait for September 25th.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I don't want people to just kiss my ass... I want people to think for themselves, but I also want them to be right when they do it. You don't get from wrong to right by walking the path of the fallen pioneers who came before you. And I genuinely want a few people to make fools out of themselves so I feel good about wrecking someone later on.

But to get this on a daily basis is annoying, to put it lightly.
 

Russian-chiropractic19

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
when your learning about something debating and actually getting involved is a more effective way of retaining that knowledge.so far despite being lost as hell I've kept my mouth shut for the simple fact that they seem quite annoyed at the time and would only feel further annoyed by me adding fuel to the fire with (to them) unecessary questions/comments.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
when your learning about something debating and actually getting involved is a more effective way of retaining that knowledge.so far despite being lost as hell I've kept my mouth shut for the simple fact that they seem quite annoyed at the time and would only feel further annoyed by me adding fuel to the fire with (to them) unecessary questions/comments.

Questions I have no issue with. I'm totally happy to answer questions and, in fact, I would prefer people did this more often.

It's PRESUMPTION and a desire to remain ignorant (out of select individuals) that annoys me. But it's good that you openly and honestly state where you are with things as far as knowledge goes, because until people actually do that for themselves they are forever lost in the woods.

The worst thing anyone could have done in this situation is what Cow did, and that was after several pages he adopted a losing argument that somebody else had previously made, and made a huge post which ignored everything that was posted in the thread, while having no real understanding of the implications of what he was saying.

Why do people do this? I really don't know. But he did it.
 

Russian-chiropractic19

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
probably felt bad for Master I know I sure as hell did.sure the guy is a bit arrogant but having everyword you say shot down by your own community has gotta be rough.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
probably felt bad for Master I know I sure as hell did.sure the guy is a bit arrogant but having everyword you say shot down by your own community has gotta be rough.

He brings it on himself. And we don't just dislike him purely because he is arrogant. We dislike him because he is shady as hell and rarely says or does anything that is not to his own benefit. Not the topic for that, though.
 
D

Deleted member 473

Guest
I see. Let me rephrase my statement.
I know a lot more about the development of the game than you do. It's not done. Tecmo is not just sitting on it. You're completely and totally wrong about that.

I dont think he meant that way Dogg. I think he meant that the overall completeion of the Characters, levels etc. are basically done...
 

AKNova7

Active Member
Why do the newer players always argue with the vets, Allan? Always. It's like they assume we got to where we are from luck or something... and they actually presume to understand the system better than us, while ignoring everything we tell them.

Well, technically I'm a vet too, as far as playing the game, but I argue with you guys too. But that's probably because where I come from is a Semi-Competitive perspective (as far as taking the game very seriously, but not going to tournaments.) Being in the middle I saw a little bit too much of both sides of the argument until I went back and played a bunch of DOA3 so I could remember the differences a little bit better.

But, it happens. To be completely honest, like I said before, all of us that were putting in serious work in this thread earlier need to make our unified counter-argument. Which would probably be different from the one that was tried before, but not maintained.

The best proof of this is KOF13 and VF5 which are the best 2D and 3D fighters respectively and no one plays them.

Hm, well, honestly, no one plays KOF most likely because the casual community of that game is dry. Half of which has to do with the hilarious amount of rumors about the game's netcode, which, as I experiences, was pretty awful. With no influx of people besides the hardcore competitive, there's no one there except the competitive. I love the character setup, though. It's just wonderful.

And Virtua Fighter 5, the reason why people probably don't play that game is because there's nothing really flashy about it. While it's the father that 3D fighters came from, most people don't find anything "Unique" about the game. Also, the casual base of that game, is...once again...dry. So no one except the hardcore competitive are there, same as KOF. Those are two games that don't know how to recruit a casual, and they suffer the consequences, regardless of how good the game is.

Which is part of why every so often I play devil's advocate and stick up for the casuals. Though just because a game is casual friendly does not make it unplayable on a competitive level either.

Most of what you said is completely clueless to what makes a competitive fighting game. It's clear that you really need to move away from DOA for a moment and get competitive at other fighters. That means going to Evo and making it out of your pool in a game that isn't DOA. You would educate yourself tremendously, and we'd be able to avoid all of this because you'd actually understand that your ideas are bad... very, very bad.

To be completely honest, he probably wouldn't even need to go that far. All he'd have to do is play SC. The entire game is simply about tricking people, it's just not forced like in DOA. That'd be one of the best ways for him to learn the difference.
 

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Master liked my post.

Think I'm going to hell now.


Anyway Nova, you at least have the good sense to back down from a losing argument or admit mistakes. Any argument with you feels like it's going to be made more in the honest pursuit of truth rather than some emotional need to bark back at Rikuto. Most people are like you, so thats cool.

Cow.... I just don't know. One day he will see the light.... maybe...
 

AKNova7

Active Member
Cow.... I just don't know. One day he will see the light.... maybe...

What doesn't make sense is how sometimes he agrees with me, but doesn't agree with you guys the times we are trying to do exactly the same thing with slightly different methods. I've never understood that.

But, seriously, if we're going to make a thread to put all these ideas together, the sooner, the better as far as I'm concerned. I'd make it, but I'm sure we'd need Skilletor in there as the polar opposite mentality of anything that comes from my fingers. In all seriousness, it'd probably be best if a moderator drafted a thread. Easier to maintain if we're starting a new discussion. We can come up with a lot of solutions to what Team Ninja is facing, we just have to do it quickly to give them time to work with it, at least by the time DOA 5.1 comes out.
 

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Cow.... I just don't know. One day he will see the light.... maybe...

Rikuto, its not about light or darkness.
It's just that I don't find what you propose convincing, not to me at least. I simply have a different point of view to what you have, and that's absolutely normal in any debate.

We do have middle grounds, however, where we agree sometimes on some points.

But just to set the records straight. I am by no means NEW to DOA nor am I NEW to the fighting scene in general.
As I have stated many times before, I just never knew that game specific sites like this existed. But this does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.

To set the records straight, I do have full respect for an opposing opinion and especially one that is attempted to be backed up by evidence without showing any disrespect. And at several points in the discussion there were points where I actually agreed with what you said but others which I did not.

I disagreed with removing delayed strings and I disagreed with creating more situations that don't allow holds that there already currently is. I stated my reasons for this in the past. We disagreed. And that was that. I'm not the type to go back and forth over the same damn thing over and over.

However, I don't claim my opinion to be a MAJORITY opinion nor do I think that yours is one either. People have different tastes and different points of view.

And as for the broken record "Lets Get Tournament Viable Baby! - The hit single". With the current changes to DOA5, the game will have its time in the spotlight. How long that will be will be determined by the community and this is something neither you nor I can predict at this point. This is a new game and a new generation. The game is coming out at a time where the market is infested with nothing but shit fighters. Plus, the MAJOR complaints about DOA4 have all been addressed and sorted and we all know this. Lets just wait and see how it plays out.

The game doesn't have to have the same rule set as everything else out there to be accepted. In fact I think this time around people might actually be thirsty for something "different".

I said this before, I do respect the fact that you actually do your best to validate your argument points. which is why most of the time I reply to your comments more than anyone else. The rest just seem to be nothing but... sheep .. with nothing extra to add to the discussion. They just bark what others tend to say with nothing to back it up with when confronted.
 

AKNova7

Active Member
so how much revision could TN do with an update anyhow? I don't quite understand the limits of their powers once a game is releasead

I don't know the limits, but SC patch 1.02 changed over 200 move properties, if I remember correctly. Which, considering how small the DOA metagame could be, it'd probably be much easier to patch this game, since, if I'm correct, stuns are universal in operation, just modified by type and possibly duration, but I believe just type.

And as for the broken record "Lets Get Tournament Viable Baby! - The hit single". With the current changes to DOA5, the game will have its time in the spotlight. How long that will be will be determined by the community and this is something neither you nor I can predict at this point. This is a new game and a new generation. The game is coming out at a time where the market is infested with nothing but shit fighters. Plus, the MAJOR complaints about DOA4 have all been addressed and sorted and we all know this. Lets just wait and see how it plays out.

Infested with nothing but shit fighters? Well, to be honest, if it's any more like DOA4, it'd add to that "list" quite well.
 
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