DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[iHajinShinobi]

Every other character simply has a much better neutral game than Alpha and Phase 4 (especially Phase 4). Alpha's strings are telegraphic regardless of being long and she gets raped hard on defense. Your imagination can literally run wild once you get the knockdown on her. Putting her up against the wall forces her to guess with teleport. Putting her up against the wall where it forces her to automatically teleport is an easy punish once you find it with your character. The match up for most characters vs Alpha is not hard, and the block button exists.

Phase literally has nothing scary in neutral, she is forced to commit to strike free cancel/throw during the neutral. If she uses any string that requires going past PP6P, she's stuck or gets punished. She has to spend more fishing for counter hits more than anything else in neutral. People just need to really learn the match up and stop getting hesitant just because she teleports.

Zack is in top 5 because his mix up is unparalleled to the cast (as is the other 4 in the same respect. Each of the 5 can literally do what they choose during the mix up, in their own right. Most other characters do not have the same privilege in DOA). Zack more than likely has the greatest advantageous with Critical Burst because of both Ducking and Sway changing his offensive mix up in such a unique (and annoyingly good) way. The fact that he gets a full 2K string as a force tech+damage is really strong. Once he gets going, a strong Zack will often keep up the momentum as best he can along with 6T guaranteeing 50+ every time it hits into a mix up.

His match ups really aren't that bad either. Characters Leifang, Genfu and Ayane are still way better than him though, because each have much better advantageous situations with a higher reward than him.

 

[MasterHavik]

Ah okay. Thanks for the info and explaining the placing of some characters.

 

[Radiance]

This is what my tier list looks like right now, although I'm still thinking things over about some character placements (trying to create a full tier list is very difficult). Raidou and Honoka are not yet added because I'm still thinking about their strengths compared to everyone else. But once I'm settled, I know Raidou will be placed a lot higher than Honoka. He is simply a much better character.

S: Leifang, Genfu, Ayane, Christie, Zack
A+: Akira, Hayate, Momiji, Helena, Kasumi
A: Mila, Pai, Sarah, Hayabusa, Rig
B+: Hitomi, Jannlee, Rachel, Jacky, Lisa, Bayman, Bass, Tina
B: Leon, Kokoro, Marie Rose, Eliot, Brad Wong
C: Nyotengu, Ein, Alpha-152
D: Phase 4

My top 10 has changed a little bit since I last posted a top 10.

I think B-D is debatable. What is it that puts Phase 4 at the bottom and Nyo Tengu

 

[Lulu]

I think B-D is debatable. What is it that puts Phase 4 at the bottom and Nyo Tengu

I don't know about The Winged Lady but appearently Phase 4 is slightly less safer than Kasumi and doesn't have all her tools too....

 

[Tempest]

Hajin has a much more educated opinion, and I am of course extremely bias, but I don't feel like I'm using the worst character in the game. Though I think that's just the nature of this game. The top tier characters are undoubtedly better, but the situation never becomes as dire as it is in other games where you can almost lose at character select in certain cases. Even if all of Phase's matchups were 4-6 against her that would still be a lot better than what the match up chart looks like for low tier characters in a game like SF3: Third Strike. I personally have yet to feel like I've lost a match because my character wasn't good enough, regardless of who I was playing.

 

[Lulu]

I personally have yet to feel like I've lost a match because my character wasn't good enough, regardless of who I was playing.

Me too !!!

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Hajin has a much more educated opinion, and I am of course extremely bias, but I don't feel like I'm using the worst character in the game. Though I think that's just the nature of this game. The top tier characters are undoubtedly better, but the situation never becomes as dire as it is in other games where you can almost lose at character select in certain cases. Even if all of Phase's matchups were 4-6 against her that would still be a lot better than what the match up chart looks like for low tier characters in a game like SF3: Third Strike. I personally have yet to feel like I've lost a match because my character wasn't good enough, regardless of who I was playing.

Then you need to play me offline. A good 5-10 matches will surely make you understand why I feel the way I do about Phase 4 since after her first week of release in 5U. But who knows if we'll be at the same tournament again.

@Radiance Phase 4's neutral game is really, REALLY bad. Most players will not understand because most players really don't have a neutral game themselves. If were playing offline, I'm going to make sure your options in neutral dwindle down to just jab, PP, 6P, 2P, K, and throw up close. 1P is terrible in neutral, if it's free cancelled it is a free low throw punish. And it loses to 2P from practically everyone in the roster, characters with i14 or slower 2Ps actually get the counter hit. Doesn't matter if Phase does 1PP either.

People think too highly of Phase 4 because people simply do not know the match up, they get too intimidated by teleport mix ups. 66K P+K also really isn't a reliable way for Phase to approach either, there is nothing advantageous about it. Once people actually learn to fuzzy guard that situation, they'll understand why. But I do kind of have to wonder what a lot of players are really doing in the lab.

Nyotengu, despite her being slow and I now know that match up very well. And am not scared of her buttons, she has a good neutral game at a distance, and her jab is a very strong footsie tool. But it's also super obvious too. Characters can actually utilize very light negative frame disadvantage as frame advantage against her.

I also do welcome opinions and discussion, and my list is more of a rough draft right now anyway.

 

[Tempest]

Then you need to play me offline. A good 5-10 matches will surely make you understand why I feel the way I do about Phase 4 since after her first week of release in 5U.

@Radiance Phase 4's neutral game is really, REALLY bad. Most players will not understand because most players really don't have a neutral game themselves. If were playing offline, I'm going to make sure your options in neutral dwindle down to just jab, PP, 6P, 2P, K, and throw up close. 1P is terrible in neutral, if it's free cancelled it is a free low throw punish. And it loses to 2P from practically everyone in the roster, characters with i14 or slower 2Ps actually get the counter hit. Doesn't matter if Phase does 1PP either.
.

I really don't, you're a better player than me, fighting you won't change my mind when I'm not currently capable of beating you with any character.

I know my character, I'm perfectly aware anything beyond those pokes you listed (plus 3k, minus 5k) require a commitment from a hard read. Phase has no string mixups, no free cancels or guard breaks. Phase isn't like the other i9s and is more about being patient and capitalizing on your opponent hitting the wrong buttons than trying to force them open like Kasumi or Pai would.

I honestly don't think having a bad neutral game is a death sentence for a character in DOA when the neutral is so mind game heavy. I don't think Phase is completely lacking in neutral tools either.

I don't know why you brought up 1P, as it's not ever the go to crush when you have a i12 2p.

 

[Lulu]

I don't know why you brought up 1P, as it's not ever the go to crush when you have a i12 2p.

Oh I didn't know Phase had that.... thats awesome....
Anyway I think is better on Counter hit..... high risk decent reward.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I really don't, you're a better player than me, fighting you won't change my mind when I'm not currently capable of beating you with any character.

I know my character, I'm perfectly aware anything beyond those pokes you listed (plus 3k, minus 5k) require a commitment from a hard read. Phase has no string mixups, no free cancels or guard breaks. Phase isn't like the other i9s and is more about being patient and capitalizing on your opponent hitting the wrong buttons than trying to force them open like Kasumi or Pai would.

I honestly don't think having a bad neutral game is a death sentence for a character in DOA when the neutral is so mind game heavy. I don't think Phase is completely lacking in neutral tools either.

I don't know why you brought up 1P, as it's not ever the go to crush when you have a i12 2p.

I know your character very well, too.

1P is mentioned because it is the norm of every Phase I've played. And 2P is simply not a great reward for hi crushing often. You score a +4 but then what? She doesn't have anything scary to apply except for having more speed. Which leads right back into the same problems she already has in neutral.

Having a worse neutral game does matter, actually, because it'll quickly show you just how limited your options actually are compared to another character that doesn't have nearly the same limitations. While in the match. It'll also show that the opponent has less to worry about during the neutral game.

Old but good example is the EVO side tournament of last year, where Requiem played Steady in casuals. Christie vs Phase 4, and Requiem was in control and literally winning on a 10 game win streak by simply throw punishing Steady for finishing strings and throwing 6P free cancelling on read. Also had no reason to be scared of anything during the neutral game. I wish I had the footage of this.

The neutral game is yomi based in most fighting games, not a DOA thing at all. If you're options are that limited, and your opponent knows what your options are, that makes the match much more difficult on you. Phase either has to take a big risk or a moderate risk, with minimal safe options.

At least Alpha actually has options during the neutral that do not limit her as much as Phase 4 actually is.

Also, me saying you should play me isn't to shut you up, not what I implied. Just to simply say that in an offline setting, Phase 4 is a lot more manageable to fight. I guess I should have worded it as more as an in-general thing, not at you. My apologies.

 

[Tempest]

I know your character very well, too.

1P is mentioned because it is the norm of every Phase I've played. And 2P is simply not a great reward for hi crushing often. You score a +4 but then what? She doesn't have anything scary to apply except for having more speed. Which leads right back into the same problems she already has in neutral.

Having a worse neutral game does matter, actually, because it'll quickly show you just how limited your options actually are compared to another character that doesn't have nearly the same limitations. While in the match. It'll also show that the opponent has less to worry about during the neutral game.

Old but good example is the EVO side tournament of last year, where Requiem played Steady in casuals. Christie vs Phase 4, and Requiem was in control and literally winning on a 10 game win streak by simply throw punishing Steady for finishing strings and throwing 6P free cancelling on read. Also had no reason to be scared of anything during the neutral game. I wish I had the footage of this.

The neutral game is yomi based in most fighting games, not a DOA thing at all. If you're options are that limited, and your opponent knows what your options are, that makes the match much more difficult on you. Phase either has to take a big risk or a moderate risk, with minimal safe options.

At least Alpha actually has options during the neutral that do not limit her as much as Phase 4 actually is.

Also, me saying you should play me isn't to shut you up, not what I implied. Just to simply say that in an offline setting, Phase 4 is a lot more manageable to fight. I guess I should have worded it as more as an in-general thing, not at you. My apologies.

1P is not a good tool, if a Phase player is using it a lot they probably haven't spent much time in the lab doing anything except combo practice. Even on counter you can only use the mid punch followup, making it pointless outside of stun.

I'm not saying having a poor neutral game doesn't matter, but it certainly doesn't matter as much in DOA which has it's universal mechanics as the great equalizer. Her risk reward is still poor compared to a fairly large portion of the cast, but her extra damage means that she's not to be counted out.

Every fighting game's neutral has yomi, but DOA's triangle system makes the neutral game play out quite a bit differently than other games. It gives a lot more options to the defender, and gives the attacker the tools to respond, which creates some interesting scenarios that you won't typically see in other fighting games.

Not to knock Steady as he's an amazing player, but if he was continuing to throw out unsafe strings after someone has clearly demonstrated that they can punish them on point every time that's his problem. At that point you're better off limiting it to whatever you can fuzzy/neutral throw break off of until you can get a better read. Crazy losing in casuals with a character he doesn't play competitively is not a good example, especially not to Christie, one of the worst possible matchups Phase can have.

Alpha has her own problems, namely her complete lack of any powerful defensive tools. Her risk reward is just as poor for similar reasons. While her throws blow Phase's out of the water, her strike damage is not as good and she literally cannot apply any pressure in stun.

You don't need to apologize, I'm just saying that I know very well how throw punishable my character is, and that she's very limited. I don't play online often, and when I do I hardly ever use Phase because the connection rarely lets me do so properly.

If DOA had a universal throw breaks Phase would be really terrible, but since DOA has 7 frame unbreakable throws, you can get away with living your life around making reads on whether or not your opponent is going to hit buttons on negative, throw punishing, whiff punishing and tick throwing. I'm not trying to argue that Phase is a great character deserving of high mid tier (she's basically the Potemkin of this game) but that throwing her under the bus below Ein (who also has laughably bad CQC) and Tengu (who has to make a read on i12 2p just to get her turn) is a bit much.

 

[Lulu]

Every fighting game's neutral has yomi, but DOA's triangle system makes the neutral game play out quite a bit differently than other games. It gives a lot more options to the defender, and gives the attacker the tools to respond, which creates some interesting scenarios that you won't typically see in other fighting games.

Isn't that the best ? Man I love DoA !!!

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I'm not saying having a poor neutral game doesn't matter, but it certainly doesn't matter as much in DOA which has it's universal mechanics as the great equalizer. Her risk reward is still poor compared to a fairly large portion of the cast, but her extra damage means that she's not to be counted out.

Every fighting game's neutral has yomi, but DOA's triangle system makes the neutral game play out quite a bit differently than other games. It gives a lot more options to the defender, and gives the attacker the tools to respond, which creates some interesting scenarios that you won't typically see in other fighting games.

DOA's triangle system does not imply the neutral game is on equal terms per character, per match. The hold does not mean the neutral game is even. You're not going to spend your time trying to risk a hold against Ayane, a character who has a plethora of options (without strikes) during footsies. Every game has strike and throw for the neutral game. Mentioning the triangle system isn't a good argument for a neutral game.

When I speak of a neutral game, I'm referring to what you can do up close, at a distance, during footsies, spacing, zoning, approaching, etc. Phase 4's options are very limited in each aspect of the neutral compared to the roster. The only time Phase 4 shines is when she actually scores the counter hit and can get some damage going. And she has a difficult time getting that counter hit.

Ein is a much better character than Phase 4, believe it or not. And his CQC is very good. 10/13/13 with a 2P that's +1 on neutral hit gives him two i11 highs, an i9 jab and i12 mids. His 46P will blow any i11 strike character's mids out of the water if you're really trying to go mid P as retaliation after he scores the +1. Two reliable high crushes out of 9P and 1P, PP2K is a good string to stimulate chip damage and force opponents to make the decision of pressing buttons or deal with the low. PPP, PP6P and PP2K are an actual mix up because of that. He has a reliable standing offensive hold.

3P is one of the best single strike mid punches in the game, at i13 frames and neutral damage base of 20, +0 on neutral hit. Safe at -4? +40 stun and +30 at fastest stagger escape? That's pretty damn good for an i13 mid. Has easy access to a bound hit from KK. 46P simply punishes you for even trying whiff buttons within' range. His wall game is pretty nasty. He's a solid and underrated character, but does have his limitations. Hayate is also simply a much better character.

Alpha has her own problems, namely her complete lack of any powerful defensive tools. Her risk reward is just as poor for similar reasons. While her throws blow Phase's out of the water, her strike damage is not as good and she literally cannot apply any pressure in stun.

To the underlined, define "cannot apply any pressure in stun" for me.

 

[J.D.E.]

Not necessarily inputting anything into the conversation in terms of the list, but to clarify, neutral game is based on character's stand alone tools vs everyone else like 9/11/12 (in Phase's case). It has everything to do with footsie tools, the fight up close (CQC), zoning/defensive options, etc like mentioned before. It's how well that they play within the game's mechanics, not solely based on the system "of" the game however. In any game that you play, neutral games would be different. Every character in the game has some sort of hold, but it's more about who excels more in holds. Like Lei Fang. Lei has arguably the best holding tools in the game because just about off of any type of hold that she gets, she's getting tons of damage for them. There's a reason why people suggest adding more throws into your mixup game against her. Not all characters get damage like that from holds.

 

[Darkslay]

This is what my tier list looks like right now, although I'm still thinking things over about some character placements (trying to create a full tier list is very difficult). Raidou and Honoka are not yet added because I'm still thinking about their strengths compared to everyone else. But once I'm settled, I know Raidou will be placed a lot higher than Honoka. He is simply a much better character.

S: Leifang, Genfu, Ayane, Christie, Zack
A+: Akira, Hayate, Momiji, Helena, Kasumi
A: Mila, Pai, Sarah, Hayabusa, Rig
B+: Hitomi, Jannlee, Rachel, Jacky, Lisa, Bayman, Bass, Tina
B: Leon, Kokoro, Marie Rose, Eliot, Brad Wong
C: Nyotengu, Ein, Alpha-152
D: Phase 4

My top 10 has changed a little bit since I last posted a top 10.

I wildly agree with this list. However, i don't see why people think Rig is a better character than Jann Lee.

 

[MasterHavik]

If Phase 4 is the Potmekin of DOA, then it would take multiple updates and games for her to become good since that is what happen to Potmekin.

 

[Lulu]

If Phase 4 is the Potmekin of DOA, then it would take multiple updates and games for her to become good since that is what happen to Potmekin.

Phase is just weak..... its not like she's incapable of winning.... its just much much harder for her to get a win.

 

[Tempest]

To the underlined, define "cannot apply any pressure in stun" for me.

There's a lot of things in that post I'll respond to later but for now I'll say that what I meant there is that Alpha cannot threaten her opponent with damage in stun unlike the rest of the cast, which is huge.

As for the neutral game, I have never said or implied that the triangle system makes the game equal for all characters.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

You implied the triangle system having an impact on the neutral game, like every other fighting game, they have their own system mechanics. And they do not change the fact that different characters have more or less advantages during the neutral game based on character tools. Phase 4 is on the shorter end of the stick.

Here's a better question for you; What exactly does "apply pressure in stun" mean for you? I need to know your interpretation.

 

[Tempest]

You implied the triangle system having an impact on the neutral game, like every other fighting game, they have their own system mechanics. And they do not change the fact that different characters have more or less advantages during the neutral game based on character tools. Phase 4 is on the shorter end of the stick.

Here's a better question for you; What exactly does "apply pressure in stun" mean for you? I need to know your interpretation.

The triangle system has a pretty large impact on the neutral game, and DOA has some very different design decisions compared to other fighting games that also affect it's neutral.

Phase has serviceable enough neutral tools to let her get a stun game in, it's harder for her than other characters, but she does get rewarded more.

Pressure in stun is probably not the best wording for what I mean. Holding in stun forces a unique risk reward situation that controls which tools you are likely to use. You have to be mindful with your launchers or your opponent will get a read that well allow them to get offense from their hold during your stun game. Some characters can start their own offense off of a correct read in stun. Alpha cannot do this, as her holds simply return her to neutral.

I don't see Phase as being the worst character in the game because I don't believe she has any more bad match ups than characters like Ein, Elliot, or Nyotengu do. Her disadvantages put her in a lot of 4-6 matchups and some 3-7s, but that's the same case for many other characters. She has what she needs to go 5-5 at the very least against the lower tier characters and be 4-6 against the better ones, just like pretty much everyone you placed in C tier.