If we weren't so conservative, I think this line of thinking would make the MUs Wah and I posted look a bit different.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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I think being conservative for matchups is dumb. If one character has an easier time, it should immediately stop being 5-5. Either allow decimals or just bump it to 6-4. Ryu-Ken in SF2 is 6-4. I don't know why the DoA crowd likes to pretend things are even when they're not.
I really doubt the majority of those 5-5 matchups are actually 5-5 but I don't know enough about them to put them one way or the other. 4-6 is slight disadvantage. 3-7 is heavy disadvantage. 2-8 is #banKokonoe.
I really doubt the majority of those 5-5 matchups are actually 5-5 but I don't know enough about them to put them one way or the other. 4-6 is slight disadvantage. 3-7 is heavy disadvantage. 2-8 is #banKokonoe.
I agree. It does become apparent at times when one character is clearly not working as hard as their opponent to win (e.g. Ayane vs. Brad Wong is hella easier for Ayane). I find that people overrate the hold system mechanics when it comes to justifying even-ish matchups. Holds don't determine the overall balance of a match that much unless the character specializes in holds such as LeiFang. If both players are on point with their characters, the character that has an easier time winning, or has more effective tools, will win more often.
On the otherhand, there's also a lot of tech to be uncovered in this game, especially amongst the lesser popular characters, but I can clearly tell that certain characters (*coughsgenfucoughs*) have an easier time than others.
Yeah, I think it's 'cause of holds. But it's not as if the other character doesn't have holds. They both have holds. And sometimes the character who has the easier time has better holds. That there's always an option available doesn't mean the matchup is anywhere close to even. It's like saying throw/dragon punch/block is a legit strategy in Street Fighter. "Technically, you just have to reversal whenever he isn't blocking!" Doesn't stop Cammy vs OSagat from being 1-9.
While actually agree with you, the thing is, if I put 4-6 or more for every match-up where I thought the Ryu player had to work harder to win than the other player I would have caused hysteria and mass-rejection. Thing is, Ryu struggles in this game. A lot. Other characters do to, but the number of MUs where Ryu has to work as hard as his opponent I could probably count on one hand. I am confident of that. But if I did posted that, people would immediately see the numbers and get offended, and would proceed to tell me "I'm underrating my character" and blat-blat-blat as they always do and they wouldn't even take my post seriously, regardless how grounded it was. As it is, people at least listened to me and for now, that's really all I can ask for. The mass-sentiment is that: "in a game where you can hold out of stun, every match is winnable and almost even." Until the community recognizes that such a statement is dismissive, there's not much I can do to convince them otherwise.
That's why when I post MUs, I post conservatively.
That's why when I post MUs, I post conservatively.
Just do it anyway, there are other games where 4-6's are a character's BEST matchups. DOA is more "balanced" than most games but no one is created equal and it manifests itself regularly. I mean would anyone say that Sarah's "best" MU's in this game are only 6-4?
That's whole point of the discussion, right? To post how you feel opposed to everyone else with facts. That's the key thing in a match. It may not be one that people agree with, but if they're not speaking up & presenting factual information with their statement as to why they disagree, then like Allan said, then it will ride out. That's what the discussion is for.
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MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
I'll just answer the first part.
Well my good friend. Moves like 6p, 4p, 3p, and such I'm blocking and punishing you of doing them. I ain't gonna have to outpoke you. Now the special mid kick hold can not or can be a factor since Zack can play stun with punches and still get CB. and those parries aren't as scary old man fu and leifang parries. So she can do her animu teleports I don't care. also another thing to note is Zack has lots of 30 frame stuns and I can quickly turn it into a situation you ain't escaping. The big thing about space and why Zack can outspace her. That is because of 4k...in my opinion the most broken move in the game. Yeah you can SS it, but I can just duck 2K and catch you. I got 6H+KK and Zack cyclone(66H+KK). Hell I can even do stuff like 236PK and 44KK. If I wanna get risky I can do 33kp.
If this was your ONLY reason for Kasumi being 6-4 then you have no clue what she is about nor how to play the MU between the two characters. Between you and I, I have destroyed you mercilessly in this MU ( thus further to prove that you have no clue about her) and Hoodless, my good friend, struggles in this MU. Characters do not struggle in a 5-5 MU, sir.
Ya'll silly, what space is Zack controlling. He can create it and that's it. That damn gap closer 66H+KK are 2 highs that don't track, and jails him along with his opponent at -4. When you SS the 1st kick in 66H+KK you can hold 8 or 2 and free step the second one and it's guaranteed back turn damage, which results in a launch from Kasumi. If you just do one and free cancel the 2nd Kick, GG.
What?! Where are these holes, please, tell me. If anything holes were fixed with her, lol, P+K and 6K because they are no longer being blown up by other mids. Also, the strings that he is ducking under are her highs ones, which is natural, he'll do that that to any character. However, Kasumi has no problem because she as enough mid hitting strings to prevent sway ducks from being remotely an issue. Kasumi is one of the few characters that have High to mid strings that cause deep stuns on CH, and as far as I know only the BKO duck will avoid them.
Dig this, I understand that Zack isn't played so there is an unknown factor there for some people. I will tell you like I told code, I know the character, he is not unknown to me so you or him are not just going to tell me anything because I have EXP against him as well as knowing how he works. Zack is not a hero, "his worst MU is 5-5", yeah, ok. Zack is not a bad character by any means, but the characters that you as well as code believe he is even with, Zack is not. This honestly tells me that you guys are not playing against challenging players that do work and excel with execution.
Also, Jann Lee and Hayate may be a 6-4 MU for him as well. They abuse him in the spacing game and since Zack can create it so easily that actually hurts him while playing against them. These MU are still being scrutinized but it is clear in this area of the MU there's nothing much Zack can do to get in on both characters and Hayate can move in and out however he wants with no static from Zack. Hayate's 4P alone is a big speed bump for Zack at mid and close range.
Do not forget to post that conversation. I'd love to see
I'll go line by line.
Well for starters great way to say you destroyed it and cleverly hide the fact THAT WAS IN VANILLA. This is a different game within itself sir. Don't say stuff like that without getting blown up. We have yet to play in 5U my good friend. So don't go misspeaking like that all right
Also don't give me," Well it still counts and etc." when you're smart enough to know the game from vanilla to 5U has changed greatly and both characters have gained tools since then. And even hoodless thinks that MU is even. In 5-5 in any fighter it can go either way so as hoodless would say," It's all about the player." That is what a 5-5 is my good friend.What space is he controlling? 4k and 6H+K say hello good sir. If you think 6H+KK is the only thing to worry about you're sadly mistake.
You just answered your own question my good friend. I meant high ones..ya think I was saying something else?
Well for starters DOA doesn't have a big enough pool of players to where character is getting play time put into them so this community has to down back and pick up multiple characters just to make sure we get an idea. I mean I'm going to get shot for this, but games like Smash, Injustice, and PS allstars have a big enough pool of players to where no one isn't ignorance to the whole roster. Let me give one example...if you were to go Mewtwo vs. Fox in SSBM all the Fox gotta do is rushdown Kirby and keep him off the map and he's fucked. Kirby is the second worst character in SSBM, but that community had players like T!mmy and others to breakdown and explore Kirby soeveryoen was in the know. An upset could still happen yes but everyone in the smash community knows how to fight every character in the game with their main. Now back our regularly FSD program. *click*
Dig this my good man. I feel you know him, but you're quick to compare him to others that he is not. And me, code, blaze, hoodless, and etc. go out of our way to find everything out about our boy. He's not hero but he is no jobber. Also I said his worst mu are 6-4s in my original post. If you ask hoodless he'll tell you that. He believes he is the best in the game. Me and code believe he is top 10 close to sneaking into top 5. He may be top 5 thanks to the fake roll buff. Me and Code have played talented players and I can trust a guy like code since I have known since the SC4 days. He doesn't get it wrong. I mean sometimes not playing challenging players is enough for me and him and it's best to explore the characters and pick them apart. I feel for any MU it's more effective to just find out stuff yourself instead of hoping to find a highly skilled Eliot or Ein.
And lastly I'll just say on the JL and Hayate...mu...no they are not 6-4 in their favor. So please don't jump the gun and assume things sir. Anyways next post will talk about all his MUs.
Edit: btw..a little bit of a spoilers...I feel Zack has some 7-3s that code didn't want to point out. And yes I believe Zack really beats some characters badly. I ain't gonna who just yet. Going to keep you guys on edge.
All of what you just posted in the line of response to me, isn't really telling me anything lol. ANY character can punish for being unsafe. That's just you as a player playing good defense & making good reads, which is what you are forced to do when playing against her in the match. lol. You're literally just telling me how to play DOA (some of the mechanics of the game). Basic knowledge of the game. Again, the issue of the parries are that they get the job done for her. No, they don't always guarantee her follow ups, but that still means that you are not going to get away with what it is that you're doing to her. And 4K isn't THAT scary. I'm not saying that 6H+K isn't a good tool but what's it going to do when you're at a disadvantage giving me the advantage with me being all up in your grill? lol. I'll glady take it. You're just giving a chance to open you up. You're asking me to do it.I'll just answer the first part.
Well my good friend. Moves like 6p, 4p, 3p, and such I'm blocking and punishing you of doing them. I ain't gonna have to outpoke you. Now the special mid kick hold can not or can be a factor since Zack can play stun with punches and still get CB. and those parries aren't as scary old man fu and leifang parries. So she can do her animu teleports I don't care. also another thing to note is Zack has lots of 30 frame stuns and I can quickly turn it into a situation you ain't escaping. The big thing about space and why Zack can outspace her. That is because of 4k...in my opinion the most broken move in the game. Yeah you can SS it, but I can just duck 2K and catch you. I got 6H+KK and Zack cyclone(66H+KK). Hell I can even do stuff like 236PK and 44KK. If I wanna get risky I can do 33kp.
I'll go line by line.
Well for starters great way to say you destroyed it and cleverly hide the fact THAT WAS IN VANILLA. This is a different game within itself sir. Don't say stuff like that without getting blown up. We have yet to play in 5U my good friend. So don't go misspeaking like that all right
What space is he controlling? 4k and 6H+K say hello good sir. If you think 6H+KK is the only thing to worry about you're sadly mistake.
You just answered your own question my good friend. I meant high ones..ya think I was saying something else?
Well for starters DOA doesn't have a big enough pool of players to where character is getting play time put into them so this community has to down back and pick up multiple characters just to make sure we get an idea. I mean I'm going to get shot for this, but games like Smash, Injustice, and PS allstars have a big enough pool of players to where no one isn't ignorance to the whole roster. Let me give one example...if you were to go Mewtwo vs. Fox in SSBM all the Fox gotta do is rushdown Kirby and keep him off the map and he's fucked. Kirby is the second worst character in SSBM, but that community had players like T!mmy and others to breakdown and explore Kirby soeveryoen was in the know. An upset could still happen yes but everyone in the smash community knows how to fight every character in the game with their main. Now back our regularly FSD program. *click*
Dig this my good man. I feel you know him, but you're quick to compare him to others that he is not. And me, code, blaze, hoodless, and etc. go out of our way to find everything out about our boy. He's not hero but he is no jobber. Also I said his worst mu are 6-4s in my original post. If you ask hoodless he'll tell you that. He believes he is the best in the game. Me and code believe he is top 10 close to sneaking into top 5. He may be top 5 thanks to the fake roll buff. Me and Code have played talented players and I can trust a guy like code since I have known since the SC4 days. He doesn't get it wrong. I mean sometimes not playing challenging players is enough for me and him and it's best to explore the characters and pick them apart. I feel for any MU it's more effective to just find out stuff yourself instead of hoping to find a highly skilled Eliot or Ein.
And lastly I'll just say on the JL and Hayate...mu...no they are not 6-4 in their favor. So please don't jump the gun and assume things sir. Anyways next post will talk about all his MUs.
The stun game, what's a stun game opposed to guaranteed damage? lol 4H+K 3PP leads to 1 guess & 1 guess only. H+K 9K is guaranteeing me a launcher, H+K 66P is guaranteed leaving you with only 1 guess, guarantees a wall splat that will lead to a 33P 2P PKK7K series. 4H+K 4P is guaranteed meaning I can just hit confirm 4PK as a launcher & a juggle or 4PP for an extender & despite it being small, it even launches at max threshold lol. H+K 66PPP+K is a +8 force tech if you try to slow escape & I'll glady take that over making someone guess through the stun system. 4H+K 66P is also guaranteed extending my options. And plus, Kasumi can play the stun game better along with the guaranteed damage. I'm not saying he's bad at it because he's not, but you're the one doing most of the guess work while I'm not. She bypasses that. So I'll take guaranteed damage over keeping someone guessing anytime, anyday, & anywhere. He has to keep you guessing. Saying "I have 30 frame stuns that you can't escape out of & can get to a CB" doesn't really tell me much of anything either lol. All you're telling me is he has deep stuns which is good, but again. What are deep stuns that are inescapable opposed to guaranteed damage? Guaranteed damage is free damage. Those stuns you're telling me about is him having to put in guess work.
Edit: I almost forgot. 4H+K P+K is also guaranteed & P+KP can be hit-confirmed & 4H+K 6K & 6KK lives by it
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Sounds good guys, just remember that the intention of 5-5 is stated as "50% win for each party where both parties are at an equal master level". As it follows 4-6 would be 40% and 60% win rate respectively. Of course there will in our case be a lot of "58-42, 55-45 or the all famous 55,5537-44,4463", but it would be hard to operate on those numbers.
So ye, I think we are pushing it somewhat as this game is really really balanced compared to most (all) 2D fighters. Our 3-7 is mostly not full 3-7s but more a reaction to 4-6 not being enough in light of other MUs that count as 4-6. Many 4-6 is probably also a little twisted as it is clear one party has an advantage, though probably not fully 4-6.
Personally I'm fine with that as it makes for good conversation, but at the same time being a little true to the initial intent would be good. This way we at least got a somewhat equal background for discussion where one man's 6 isn't another man's 8. (Of course I am just saying this in a selfish agenda of not having to create a new color for 2s and 8s (Mouha!).)
Keep up the good works chaps!
So ye, I think we are pushing it somewhat as this game is really really balanced compared to most (all) 2D fighters. Our 3-7 is mostly not full 3-7s but more a reaction to 4-6 not being enough in light of other MUs that count as 4-6. Many 4-6 is probably also a little twisted as it is clear one party has an advantage, though probably not fully 4-6.
Personally I'm fine with that as it makes for good conversation, but at the same time being a little true to the initial intent would be good. This way we at least got a somewhat equal background for discussion where one man's 6 isn't another man's 8. (Of course I am just saying this in a selfish agenda of not having to create a new color for 2s and 8s (Mouha!).)
Keep up the good works chaps!
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
I will tell you this as kindly as I can right about now. I will STILL straight fuck your shit up. You are on my PSN FL and I will most likely be at UFGTX so however you want it just say the word. Your mouth is what actually got you fucked up by me the last time we met, and here I thought you learned. Yup the game has changed.. but. you haven't.
I went over his spacing tools with code, stop alluding at shit and just say them! I am aware of what he is doing in space. I will not go over again on the issues with them, as I already have. Welcome to the class, kid.
You are not crushing Kasumi freely with Zack, get it out of your head. Even code said, he if "calls" them then he is good. I don't have to call anything to either beat out Zack or crush him. Kasumi has mids that will go under mids as well as beating him to the punch on starting an offense.
I don't care what's going on in other communities. We are talking about DOA, so please, keep up with the class. Ok, since you and code, have given me the advice to seek him out, as if I need to. Hoddless has looked into this thread while I was on the phone with him and laughed at the shit he saw. He may or may not comment, I told him too so he get you guys in line with what's real.
I also said, paraphrasing here, "that the mu may be 6-4 because the spacing game holds nothing much for him and the mu is still being scrutinized." LOL, top 5, you don't stop, do you.
Havik said ps all stars has a big pool of players. Everything he ever says is now invalid.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Ain't this bout a BITCH! This why I try to refrain as much contact as I possibly can with you. I personally feel that you are not that smart when playing this game. The shit you say has yet to stop amazing me.
He doesn't read frame data right and bases stuff on what he hears and basic low level deduction
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
I told you over facebook how many play it online and their recent offline turnouts. Don't jump the gun.
Right...so I wouldn't know how to punish moves now would I?
Refrain contact? Me and you barely talk as it is. I ain't your buddy and you're not my pal. Where do you trying to insult me What the fuck are you smoking?
Also this mouse is just being weird. So what I just to say to AP is that..you talk as much shit as Andre Broner and when you get stuff. you go silence for days to months. You talk all this shit and grandstand like a king when you got put in pools at TFC by a female online player a.k.a twilight sparkle as I call her. I'm not here to start shit since you're the one that wants to get all violent about animu bitch vs. Zack. God I wish I could give you a much better response. I just love how you can twist my words and make me think I said them. Ugh..just going to do what I came in to do which is fill in the gap with certain Zack MUs.
Not going into that, but I'll point this out too since I also read it a few times: There's a difference between a character & a player.
A player may not know what to do with the character that outshines the other in the match while the other player may be highly skilled with the character that may struggle. The whole purpose of the match ups & tiers are to tell how the characters stack up against each other if the player is playing them correctly. The keyword is "IF". "It's up to the player" yes ultimately when they're fighting each other in play it is in that regard, but when we're discussing the match ups, kill that noise. It has nothing to do with the player's abilities when discussing facts as to what they can do to each other. The player's skill & knowledge of the character may not be there when fighting or know what they are doing.
In other words, the character may struggle/have trouble, but the player may not. Either that, or they may not use a character that is "supposedly good".
A player may not know what to do with the character that outshines the other in the match while the other player may be highly skilled with the character that may struggle. The whole purpose of the match ups & tiers are to tell how the characters stack up against each other if the player is playing them correctly. The keyword is "IF". "It's up to the player" yes ultimately when they're fighting each other in play it is in that regard, but when we're discussing the match ups, kill that noise. It has nothing to do with the player's abilities when discussing facts as to what they can do to each other. The player's skill & knowledge of the character may not be there when fighting or know what they are doing.
In other words, the character may struggle/have trouble, but the player may not. Either that, or they may not use a character that is "supposedly good".
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Stop shitting this one good thread, assholes. People are discussing useful info here.
Mr. Wah, what's your current opinion of Bass matchups? Any changes from the last time you made a list?
Also, general question: why are Elliot's MUs all 4 and below?
Mr. Wah, what's your current opinion of Bass matchups? Any changes from the last time you made a list?
Also, general question: why are Elliot's MUs all 4 and below?
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