Man, Sarah 3P+K is so good. Safe, good range, high crush, heavy stun on NH, and launch on CH. What a beast. It's Ayane's old 3H+K.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
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Lol, Ayane's 3H+K doesn't crush anything and is slow. But yeah, I miss vanilla 3H+K :'(.
Fixed.
You don't like characters with speed, frame advantage, high stun launch damage, crushes, a punch parry, a low punch parry, two OHs, a sabaki, low strike throw, strike throw that works on block, and a sexy casual costume? :v
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Brute has his silly moments. xD
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Nah. He uses her secretly. Shes too great that he has to deny that he uses her.Or, maybe he just doesn't like Sarah?
Ha-ha-ha-ha
Momiji vs Kasumi 5-5
I personally feel like the match up could be worked out as a 5-5 (also play Momiji & Ayane as pockets). In Momiji's jumping transitions (9P tools), Kasumi can knock her out of them with the likes of 4P or even 4PK. However, that's not what Momiji would revolve around for offense as she has the stun>launch game with fast speeds to deal with Kas. Kasumi has more guaranteeds than her overall, but Momiji has good spacing tools along with some decent get-in tools like 66H+K (a running high kick, but can be ducked or SS'd). Momiji also decent tools in 6P+K, 1P, 6P. The match is similar to Kokoro's except Momiji is better at crushing and gap closing. Once Momiji stuns you, it can be a little bit confusing. She has a great stun > launch game. Whereas Kasumi has overwhelming fast pokes & easy access to guaranteed damage.
In space, Momiji has to watch out for 66P as whiff punishment, 66H+K getting in, 66K as whiff punishment, & 3P+K getting in. 3K while it doesn't cover a ton of range in space, it has decent reach. For Kasumi, she has to watch out for running H+K (running high kick), trying to make her way in on her, 66K, 66PP as whiff punishment, 6PP as whiff punishment, 3K, 44K, & 214P as whiff punishment.
vs Kasumi 5-5I personally feel like the match up could be worked out as a 5-5 (also play Momiji & Ayane as pockets). In Momiji's jumping transitions (9P tools), Kasumi can knock her out of them with the likes of 4P or even 4PK. However, that's not what Momiji would revolve around for offense as she has the stun>launch game with fast speeds to deal with Kas. Kasumi has more guaranteeds than her overall, but Momiji has good spacing tools along with some decent get-in tools like 66H+K (a running high kick, but can be ducked or SS'd). Momiji also decent tools in 6P+K, 1P, 6P. The match is similar to Kokoro's except Momiji is better at crushing and gap closing. Once Momiji stuns you, it can be a little bit confusing. She has a great stun > launch game. Whereas Kasumi has overwhelming fast pokes & easy access to guaranteed damage.
In space, Momiji has to watch out for 66P as whiff punishment, 66H+K getting in, 66K as whiff punishment, & 3P+K getting in. 3K while it doesn't cover a ton of range in space, it has decent reach. For Kasumi, she has to watch out for running H+K (running high kick), trying to make her way in on her, 66K, 66PP as whiff punishment, 6PP as whiff punishment, 3K, 44K, & 214P as whiff punishment.
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MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
I still need to the rest of Zack's matchups. What is the list right now as it stands guys?
Codemaster actually did Zack's already, and did a pretty bang up job on them! You can review them earlier in this thread and give your feedback on them.
Some of them are actually up for dispute too though. Like Kasumi vs Zack & vs Ayane. You may want to check back with them. I don't have a number exactly with Zack but I've played 2 Zacks. It was enough of me to believe Kasumi gives him trouble in up close & they were pretty even out in space.
Yup, that's why I said Havik could give his feedback on them. There was a long debate on the Kasumi & Ayane MU's for Zack. (I think 4-6 might be the final decision).
I agree with you, Brute. I'm fairly certain the same goes for most others as well.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Alright then, fineQuite a few them should be up for dispute but players aren't speaking up so the numbers he put out there will fly. I thought by me speaking on some of them others would follow suit.. but uhh..
. I'll go with 6-4 in Kasumi's favor. I wanted to wait until I played another Zack player but since we're on the topic. Zack & Kasumi imo are both even out in space, but upclose, Kasumi has easier access through damage & can interrupt some of Zack's important strings. The 6P's match, but even still, she's stopping his poking with her jabs. He can't keep doing the same things to her fluently because of her parries, regardless of them being baited out or not, they still get the job done for her.I also wanted to hear about Kasumi vs Bass. I already wagered 6-4, but I was wanting to hear from others to see what they thought, mainly Sorwah. I'm also curious to see what some thought of Bayman Lei Fang & Leon too.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Well here the thing about Zack vs. Kasumi and why I think it's even MU. I used to think it was 6-4 kasumi because of the i9 jab she had. But that jab can't be rely on or keep Zack at bay since he can crush it with 3P+K or the more effective duck punches. The amount of space he control outclasses her and he can also track better than her. It doesn't help the latest patches have left more holds in her offense to open up either. Zack can actually duck out of certain strings from Kasumi and Ayane strings and get massive CH damage. He told me vs. Ayane the MU can be spotty at times but there are ways around. There was a facebook convo we had about her a while ago. I'm going to post here. Let me go check out the others. Because at worst depending on who you talk to...Code and Hoodless would tell ya Zack's worst MU is a 5-5. I think his worst I a 6-4, but I'm not a little undecided since certain tricks and tech found vs. Gen Fu/Leifang makes me believe they can't walk over him easily. But I'll get back to you guys on the others soon. Let me go dig through the thread and pull out the others.
I really don't see how they're not even in space. Maybe you know something that I don't know. Also as long as Kasumi's 6P, 4P, & 3P exists, she doesn't have to worry about him using 3P+K let alone rely on her 9i jab. The 6Ps tie, but outside of that, she's outpoking him. Zack has good damage output, but with Kasumi having easier access to damage with different guaranteed setups, that really doesn't mean much. Plus, with Kasumi having an expert mid kick hold & her parries, he can't keep getting the same things over & over again.
Edit: In terms of spacing, I think based on all of the discussion that has gone on, people are thinking Kasumi can't inch her way in. She doesn't have to rely on 3P+K to get her in. 66P & 66K she has when she's in the right distance. A good Kasumi player is not using these out that far or even playing at the back of the screen. They are also inching their way forward, getting in the right distance & eventually, if a player wants to keep moving away from them, they are going to find themselves backed into a corner, where she can use 66P, 66PP tools, & 3P+KP to score a wall hit. Even 66KK & 66K~K wall hits. Yes, they can be ducked & sidestepped (except 66P 66K~K & 66KK but can be SS'd), but the fact & the matter is she has them & you have to watch out for them. Plus, even when she's not using these, she's still getting in your face for pressure when you're against the wall, meaning that she'll operate her offense in anyway that she chooses like any character can when they have the wall game on their side. Otherwise, you'll see 33P 2P wall juggles.
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Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
If this was your ONLY reason for Kasumi being 6-4 then you have no clue what she is about nor how to play the MU between the two characters. Between you and I, I have destroyed you mercilessly in this MU ( thus further to prove that you have no clue about her) and Hoodless, my good friend, struggles in this MU. Characters do not struggle in a 5-5 MU, sir.
Ya'll silly, what space is Zack controlling. He can create it and that's it. That damn gap closer 66H+KK are 2 highs that don't track, and jails him along with his opponent at -4. When you SS the 1st kick in 66H+KK you can hold 8 or 2 and free step the second one and it's guaranteed back turn damage, which results in a launch from Kasumi. If you just do one and free cancel the 2nd Kick, GG.
What?! Where are these holes, please, tell me. If anything holes were fixed with her, lol, P+K and 6K because they are no longer being blown up by other mids. Also, the strings that he is ducking under are her highs ones, which is natural, he'll do that that to any character. However, Kasumi has no problem because she as enough mid hitting strings to prevent sway ducks from being remotely an issue. Kasumi is one of the few characters that have High to mid strings that cause deep stuns on CH, and as far as I know only the BKO duck will avoid them.
Dig this, I understand that Zack isn't played so there is an unknown factor there for some people. I will tell you like I told code, I know the character, he is not unknown to me so you or him are not just going to tell me anything because I have EXP against him as well as knowing how he works. Zack is not a hero, "his worst MU is 5-5", yeah, ok. Zack is not a bad character by any means, but the characters that you as well as code believe he is even with, Zack is not. This honestly tells me that you guys are not playing against challenging players that do work and excel with execution.
Also, Jann Lee and Hayate may be a 6-4 MU for him as well. They abuse him in the spacing game and since Zack can create it so easily that actually hurts him while playing against them. These MU are still being scrutinized but it is clear in this area of the MU there's nothing much Zack can do to get in on both characters and Hayate can move in and out however he wants with no static from Zack. Hayate's 4P alone is a big speed bump for Zack at mid and close range.
Do not forget to post that conversation. I'd love to see