DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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Bushido
Well-Known Member
I hate to break away from the current topic, but I have Kokoro's match-ups:
v. Alpha 5-5
v. Ayane 4-6
v. Bass 6-4
v. Bayman 4-6
v. Brad 4-6
v. Christie 4-6
v. Eliot 5-5
v. Gen Fu 4-6
v. Hayate 5-5
v. Helena 5-5
v. Hitomi 5-5
v. Jacky 4-6
v. Jann Lee 4-6
v. Kasumi 4-6
v. Leon 4-6
v. LeiFang 4-6
v. Lisa 4-6
v. Marie 5-5 (Open, but based on playing her offline, I'm leaning towards 6-4)
v. Mila 5-5
v. Momiji 4-6
v. Pai 4-6
v. Rig 5-5
v. Ryu 6-4
v. Sarah 4-6
v. Tina 5-5
v. Zack 5-5
v. Alpha 5-5
v. Ayane 4-6
v. Bass 6-4
v. Bayman 4-6
v. Brad 4-6
v. Christie 4-6
v. Eliot 5-5
v. Gen Fu 4-6
v. Hayate 5-5
v. Helena 5-5
v. Hitomi 5-5
v. Jacky 4-6
v. Jann Lee 4-6
v. Kasumi 4-6
v. Leon 4-6
v. LeiFang 4-6
v. Lisa 4-6
v. Marie 5-5 (Open, but based on playing her offline, I'm leaning towards 6-4)
v. Mila 5-5
v. Momiji 4-6
v. Pai 4-6
v. Rig 5-5
v. Ryu 6-4
v. Sarah 4-6
v. Tina 5-5
v. Zack 5-5
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explain
Bushido
Well-Known Member
Didn't you say 6-4? I'll agree with you, since I know you know more Busa than I do xP I meant to change it, but didn't.
lol If you're sure, man. But if you legitimately feel it's 5-5, I don't want to be the one to just shut someone down without hearing what they have to say on the matter, as there could always be things I missed.
I thought I covered it pretty well earlier, but if you have anything to add, by all means, feel free to share.
Bushido
Well-Known Member
I honestly haven't looked into the match-. When I do, I'll let you know. For now, I agree with what you said.
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How does the Kokoro/Bayman matchup work? I don't disagree with it, I just literally don't know anything about that matchup. Is it just the roll that puts it in his favor?
Bushido
Well-Known Member
Roll and parries, a soft 4-6. More like 4.5-5.5 honestly.
Bayman's got advantage over Kokoro. Parry, expert holds,super heavyweight and tankroll. It's more complex than that, but that's the gist.
In regards to Eliot, I'm sure he does have some 5-5s and the like, but all I can say is that he's one of Ryu's easier match-ups, and that's saying something.
In regards to Eliot, I'm sure he does have some 5-5s and the like, but all I can say is that he's one of Ryu's easier match-ups, and that's saying something.
I haven't seen any Eliots.
Kasumi
vs Zack 6-4
vs Kokoro 6-4
vs Sarah 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Momiji 5-5
vs Ein 6-4
vs Brad Wong 6-4
vs Christie 5-5
These I've covered with Kasumi.
I also disagree with Code's number of 6-4 in Zack's favor of Momiji. Momiji doesn't need her air transitions to beat Zack. Anyone who constantly uses her tenku transitions in any match like that are not aware of how she is played. Yes, she hits you in a stun & can transition to it, but that in no way or in no how means that it revolves around her offense.
Momiji also covers spacing better than him with her options being 214P options, 3K options, 7k 4K, 236P, 66P & 66PP. They all are either whiff punishers & tools that keep her opponent off of him with great distance. 214P if you get caught in that, it leads to guaranteed damage & covers a decent amount of distance. It also has safe options as a follow up so you're not going to keep running in on her easy. That, 4K 7K & 3K keeps you off of her. 236P, if she catches you while backing away or coming in, then you're to get launched. 66PP acts as the same as 236P except it covers more distance & the 2nd P has to connect before you get launched. This is trouble for Zack since he can create space. She also has a get in tool of a running H+K which puts her at +1 due to the guard break & she can move & out in very well along with 7P that creates space 6PP, & 66K to go along with her game getting in.
For her offense, she does not only have the stun game. Most people will say "hey she has a good stun > launch game" & that's all they will tell you. However, like Kasumi, she has several guaranteeds that work in her favor. So she doesn't have to solely rely on the likes of the stun game in order to beat him & it's not just 6H+K 3P (which is one of them) when she has a chance to bypass it. Then she also has 9K that leads to guaranteed damage. No, she does not have to rely on 3P for a stun when she has other stuns with 8P, 66K, 8K, 6PK being a quick launch. Plus, Momiji has a variety of crushes that helps her deal with Zack. 2H+K, 1P (which is a great tracking move), 33P, 2P, 6P+K to name a few. Yes, you may say that she needs it off of the stun, but she can still get it is my point. Even if you're referring to the stun > launch game for her, the number is still inaccurate.
For the neutral game, Zack has to deal with 10/12/12 while she is dealing with 10/11/12, but Zack does have an 12i kick to match her 12i mid but 6H could even be considered fluent guaranteed damage for her too. Even her 1st (low hold) gives her free damage access. He might beat her in throws but her 6t picks up environmental damage.
It's still up for discussion, & I don't have a number. It's between 5-5 even, 5.5-5, & 6-4 in Momiji's favor. 6-4 Zack is inaccurate. I just named off some of her best tools to shed some light on the situation. I don't see how she is struggling in the match when she beats him in 3 categories. Zack does have a good mixup game to go along with his stun game with the faster 11imid, but still, I don't see where she absolutely struggles. Him getting in is easier said than done
Kasumi
vs Zack 6-4
vs Kokoro 6-4
vs Sarah 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Momiji 5-5
vs Ein 6-4
vs Brad Wong 6-4
vs Christie 5-5
These I've covered with Kasumi.
I also disagree with Code's number of 6-4 in Zack's favor of Momiji. Momiji doesn't need her air transitions to beat Zack. Anyone who constantly uses her tenku transitions in any match like that are not aware of how she is played. Yes, she hits you in a stun & can transition to it, but that in no way or in no how means that it revolves around her offense.
Momiji also covers spacing better than him with her options being 214P options, 3K options, 7k 4K, 236P, 66P & 66PP. They all are either whiff punishers & tools that keep her opponent off of him with great distance. 214P if you get caught in that, it leads to guaranteed damage & covers a decent amount of distance. It also has safe options as a follow up so you're not going to keep running in on her easy. That, 4K 7K & 3K keeps you off of her. 236P, if she catches you while backing away or coming in, then you're to get launched. 66PP acts as the same as 236P except it covers more distance & the 2nd P has to connect before you get launched. This is trouble for Zack since he can create space. She also has a get in tool of a running H+K which puts her at +1 due to the guard break & she can move & out in very well along with 7P that creates space 6PP, & 66K to go along with her game getting in.
For her offense, she does not only have the stun game. Most people will say "hey she has a good stun > launch game" & that's all they will tell you. However, like Kasumi, she has several guaranteeds that work in her favor. So she doesn't have to solely rely on the likes of the stun game in order to beat him & it's not just 6H+K 3P (which is one of them) when she has a chance to bypass it. Then she also has 9K that leads to guaranteed damage. No, she does not have to rely on 3P for a stun when she has other stuns with 8P, 66K, 8K, 6PK being a quick launch. Plus, Momiji has a variety of crushes that helps her deal with Zack. 2H+K, 1P (which is a great tracking move), 33P, 2P, 6P+K to name a few. Yes, you may say that she needs it off of the stun, but she can still get it is my point. Even if you're referring to the stun > launch game for her, the number is still inaccurate.
For the neutral game, Zack has to deal with 10/12/12 while she is dealing with 10/11/12, but Zack does have an 12i kick to match her 12i mid but 6H could even be considered fluent guaranteed damage for her too. Even her 1st (low hold) gives her free damage access. He might beat her in throws but her 6t picks up environmental damage.
It's still up for discussion, & I don't have a number. It's between 5-5 even, 5.5-5, & 6-4 in Momiji's favor. 6-4 Zack is inaccurate. I just named off some of her best tools to shed some light on the situation. I don't see how she is struggling in the match when she beats him in 3 categories. Zack does have a good mixup game to go along with his stun game with the faster 11imid, but still, I don't see where she absolutely struggles. Him getting in is easier said than done
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Momiji vs Zack is a 5-5 IMO
Momiji outclasses him in the spacing department. She has tools to get in safely with less chance of the opponent being able to retaliate. Some of Zack's moves for approach are either high (meaning they are crushable), put him at disadvantage in the opponents face or create space like the ball. 4K would probably be the exception however this move is slow and linear. Momiji's spacing composes of a balance of fast ranged strikes with short recovery and some have tracking / crushing capability. His spacing tools are all slower than hers so she will beat him to the punch more often than not here.
As for damage Momiji's most consistent source is stun > launch. This damage is nothing to be downplayed at all because at level 1 she gets 79 points off of CH 6P > 8K, a little over 1/4th of health. She can extend stun with 3P and take 87 minimum to 92 depending on launcher not including wall damage. This damage is high and the juggle is great because the hard knockdown from her 6KKP series provides her with excellent oki whether it is grounded 2P, 7P to create space or using the frame advantage from your tech roll.
A good Momiji player won't attempt to setup her guarantees off a CH 6P because stagger escape presents issues for her when you try it. If you do this you are banking on your opponents trying to hold out of your offense. Most of her stuns are not deep enough and some do too much damage. As a simple example if you do CH 6P > 3P > 9K her 66P will knockdown the opponent. 6P > P or 3P > 214P will knock down the opponent. She can still setup 6H+K off of CH 6P > 3P > 6H+K but that setup is mad inefficient.
A good Momiji will setup her guaranteed options off of CH 3P Momiji's because they become ideal and more effective. 9K is netting her 108 points of damage and 6H+K is giving her a burst chance or 100+ damage from a juggle. 214PP+K into 4P bound will give 103.
So in the damage department Momiji is not struggling to keep momentum and her oki makes it harder for her to lose the momentum even if Zack may outdamage her.
What Zack does beat her in is string based offense and throws as well as mixups. 6T is problematic and his strings have godlike delays. Ducking can get around her highs and off of 4K she has to respect it but she can manage to deal with his offense through crushing, well placed CH 6P / 3P and sidesteps. He also has more stuns than her. So its like this:
+ Stun - Launch damage
+ Guaranteed Options
+ Spacing
+ Holds
+Mix-ups / Stuns
+Throws
+String based offense
+Critical level 2 / CB damage
Which IMO those 4 that Zack beat her in isn't enough to secure him a 6-4 over her.
Momiji outclasses him in the spacing department. She has tools to get in safely with less chance of the opponent being able to retaliate. Some of Zack's moves for approach are either high (meaning they are crushable), put him at disadvantage in the opponents face or create space like the ball. 4K would probably be the exception however this move is slow and linear. Momiji's spacing composes of a balance of fast ranged strikes with short recovery and some have tracking / crushing capability. His spacing tools are all slower than hers so she will beat him to the punch more often than not here.
As for damage Momiji's most consistent source is stun > launch. This damage is nothing to be downplayed at all because at level 1 she gets 79 points off of CH 6P > 8K, a little over 1/4th of health. She can extend stun with 3P and take 87 minimum to 92 depending on launcher not including wall damage. This damage is high and the juggle is great because the hard knockdown from her 6KKP series provides her with excellent oki whether it is grounded 2P, 7P to create space or using the frame advantage from your tech roll.
A good Momiji player won't attempt to setup her guarantees off a CH 6P because stagger escape presents issues for her when you try it. If you do this you are banking on your opponents trying to hold out of your offense. Most of her stuns are not deep enough and some do too much damage. As a simple example if you do CH 6P > 3P > 9K her 66P will knockdown the opponent. 6P > P or 3P > 214P will knock down the opponent. She can still setup 6H+K off of CH 6P > 3P > 6H+K but that setup is mad inefficient.
A good Momiji will setup her guaranteed options off of CH 3P Momiji's because they become ideal and more effective. 9K is netting her 108 points of damage and 6H+K is giving her a burst chance or 100+ damage from a juggle. 214PP+K into 4P bound will give 103.
So in the damage department Momiji is not struggling to keep momentum and her oki makes it harder for her to lose the momentum even if Zack may outdamage her.
What Zack does beat her in is string based offense and throws as well as mixups. 6T is problematic and his strings have godlike delays. Ducking can get around her highs and off of 4K she has to respect it but she can manage to deal with his offense through crushing, well placed CH 6P / 3P and sidesteps. He also has more stuns than her. So its like this:
+ Stun - Launch damage
+ Guaranteed Options
+ Spacing
+ Holds
+Mix-ups / Stuns
+Throws
+String based offense
+Critical level 2 / CB damage
Which IMO those 4 that Zack beat her in isn't enough to secure him a 6-4 over her.
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Hm. Lets see some Christie MUs.
- Though Akira has good frames, he struggles at a distance. Christie is not the best spacer but nor is she the worst. Christie is very good at closing gaps. But lets get to that later. Akira is pretty linear. Christie can easily use jak P has a CH launch as she would do to Kokoro also. Im not an expert with Akira so im not sure who has the better mixups but I am thinking Christie does. Juggle damage is in Akira's favor. But I do give environmental damage to Christie as she can do 5-7 hits after some environmental (like the RPG on hotzone or generator on scramble) things while other character can only get about 2-3 hits in. On breakable objects I dont know who is better at that tbh. I do want to say throw damage is in Akira's favor due to Christie's throws being shit, excluding the 4T. Spacing, like the other VFs, Akira isn't that great in spacing. Christie has very great ranged tools, like her 3p+k options, a few jak options, or just a few moves like 236P that just have good reach. Christie can easily evade most of Akira's things and out space him. Akira can most defiantly punish her many times and she doesn't really have a chance to punish him due to his better frames. 5-5
- Up close, I want to give this to Christie. Just for the fact that she is faster and better at neutral. Ayane is the best spacer, hands down. Ayane can space Christie out sooo easily. Maybe not as easy as other characters but she can do it. Ayane is also pretty good at closing gaps, like Christie, but is also good at making space in between, unlike Christie. Juggle damage is kinda a tie but I think Christie has it better since Ayane is lightweight and Christie is midweight. Throws and holds are totally in Ayane's favor. Ayane's 64T has a few guaranteed followups from it. Yea Christie has guaranteed things from her 3p+kt at the wall but thats at a wall. A good Ayane player won't pin themselves in a wall (Christie can only force her into a wall). Ayane's holds just shit on Christie's. Ayane's expert mid kick hold just gives her the opportunity to just do whatever. Her mid p hold has guaranteed follow ups as well. Only good hold Christie has is her low P hold. Ayane is also the character who can care less about Christie's jak. 4p can CH her out of the jak with all the other moves that track from Ayane. Punishment is on both their sides due to them both being unsafe as hell. Punishment may be better for Ayane since her throws do much more than Christie's. 5-5 or 6-4 Ayane's favor.
- I honestly do not know much bout Bass and I do not fight him much. So I won't give a ratio for this one. All I can think of is Christie being faster with more mixups is helping her in the MU. Bass has a few safe moments and has wonderful throws. And he is a heavyweight making it tough for her to juggle him (if she uses 3p+kk she can juggle heavyweights the same she can juggle lightweights with 33p or 9k).
- Same thing with Bass. I don't know much because I don't fight him often. But his throws and weight give Christie trouble. Sp punishment is greatly in his favor. Christie can only rely on speed and mixups.
- I honestly like this MU. Brad has just as many great mix ups as Christie. He can also easily crush most of her mids and her highs with his laydown stance. Christie lacks in true mids but has very good lows. Brad also has OHs. Christie is faster, of course, but Brad can slow her down and mess up her offense. Brad being random and hard to read can become a big deal. He also has many low sweeps which are the main threat to her jak. He has crushes just as good, if not better, than hers. Im pretty sure spacing is more in Christie's favor. Brad's throws are superior and his holds. I believe juggle damage and environmental damage is for Christie. 5-5
- Christie is faster, better mixups, great poking, and very evasive. Ein is pretty slow, low mixups, and not the best poking. Ein's best bet is to space her out and punish her the best he can. His holds are ok but they aren't the best. He does come with OHs, which may help. Ein really can't do much to Christie when she is up close and all aggressive. To many characters when Christie is in there she's in there. Her offense totally run straight over his. If he can keep her away and make her whiff, he has a chance. But Christie can make herself look like she messed up. She can do pppp jak bakjak. Ein might think she did ppppp but she cancelled the last P and backed up. If she does things like that Ein has to be very careful. Juggle damage is in Christie's favor and environmental damage. 6-4 Christie favor.
- This is one MU Christie can literally run right over. Eliot has many strings that end with a low P, mid P, or a tracking high K. Christie is the only character that can avoid all of them. Her jak ducks under the tracking high and the low P and mid P are linear. Eliot is also lightweight giving Christie the juggle damage. Christie is also faster with better mixups, as I said a million times before. I believe holds and throws are in Eliot's favor. Christie is also more unsafe than he is so he can punish her if her can read and block her strings. Christie is also the better spacer in this MU. 6-4 Christie favor.
- Christie is faster and has the mixups but Genfu is more safe and has a few guaranteed things. The 3k Genfu mix ups. He is either gonna use the high tracking GB or the mid P. Christie (Helena too) can avoid both options. Her jak ducks under the high GB and the mid P is linear. Christie does not need to worry about that guessing game. Genfu also has his frame traps. He gets a a guaranteed (I think BT 6p?) from his 44p GB. He gets a guaranteed K after his air grab. After the air throw then K, Christie is put in a guessing game. Does she block or attack/jak/duck to avoid another throw? Gen fu has them annoying moments. Genfu has the better juggle damage, throws, and holds. Gen fu himself is also decent in spacing and closing gaps. 5-5 or 6-4 Gen fu.
- Not being as fast and not having great mix ups, Ryu struggles with Christie. Also, not having many good tracking lows will also be a problem due to the bitch always being low. Ryu does have the throw, hold, and juggle damage. He can punish her if he can read and block her strings. On a good read, he can use his Izuna hold and get great damage. Ryu vs Christie spacing game I say is 5-5. Ryu is a great spacer but Christie has good spacing as well. They both also have sitdown stuns that guarantee a launch. Christie can really shutdown many of Ryu's options. At neutral, she dominates. Her mixups are far superior and she has many lift stuns. And her spacing is just as good. Ryu also has a harder time getting a stun and he can't bait holds as easy as she can. 5-5 or 6-4 Christie.
I'll finish the rest later. But I do have one more thing to add. Christie does not need to worry about many things as the rest of the cast does. Her jak evades all of:
Leifang's Unshu moves (even the throw0
Lisa's CAR stance moves (even the throw)
Kasumi's hoshninpo moves (even the throw)
Kokoro's heichu moves
Genfu 3k mixups
Momiji's double jump moves (even the throw)
Jann lee's Dragon stance moves (even the throw)
Every other character has to make a good guess from these character's stances. Christie does not. I believe that alone makes her a very good and unique character.
- Though Akira has good frames, he struggles at a distance. Christie is not the best spacer but nor is she the worst. Christie is very good at closing gaps. But lets get to that later. Akira is pretty linear. Christie can easily use jak P has a CH launch as she would do to Kokoro also. Im not an expert with Akira so im not sure who has the better mixups but I am thinking Christie does. Juggle damage is in Akira's favor. But I do give environmental damage to Christie as she can do 5-7 hits after some environmental (like the RPG on hotzone or generator on scramble) things while other character can only get about 2-3 hits in. On breakable objects I dont know who is better at that tbh. I do want to say throw damage is in Akira's favor due to Christie's throws being shit, excluding the 4T. Spacing, like the other VFs, Akira isn't that great in spacing. Christie has very great ranged tools, like her 3p+k options, a few jak options, or just a few moves like 236P that just have good reach. Christie can easily evade most of Akira's things and out space him. Akira can most defiantly punish her many times and she doesn't really have a chance to punish him due to his better frames. 5-5 - Up close, I want to give this to Christie. Just for the fact that she is faster and better at neutral. Ayane is the best spacer, hands down. Ayane can space Christie out sooo easily. Maybe not as easy as other characters but she can do it. Ayane is also pretty good at closing gaps, like Christie, but is also good at making space in between, unlike Christie. Juggle damage is kinda a tie but I think Christie has it better since Ayane is lightweight and Christie is midweight. Throws and holds are totally in Ayane's favor. Ayane's 64T has a few guaranteed followups from it. Yea Christie has guaranteed things from her 3p+kt at the wall but thats at a wall. A good Ayane player won't pin themselves in a wall (Christie can only force her into a wall). Ayane's holds just shit on Christie's. Ayane's expert mid kick hold just gives her the opportunity to just do whatever. Her mid p hold has guaranteed follow ups as well. Only good hold Christie has is her low P hold. Ayane is also the character who can care less about Christie's jak. 4p can CH her out of the jak with all the other moves that track from Ayane. Punishment is on both their sides due to them both being unsafe as hell. Punishment may be better for Ayane since her throws do much more than Christie's. 5-5 or 6-4 Ayane's favor. - I honestly do not know much bout Bass and I do not fight him much. So I won't give a ratio for this one. All I can think of is Christie being faster with more mixups is helping her in the MU. Bass has a few safe moments and has wonderful throws. And he is a heavyweight making it tough for her to juggle him (if she uses 3p+kk she can juggle heavyweights the same she can juggle lightweights with 33p or 9k). - Same thing with Bass. I don't know much because I don't fight him often. But his throws and weight give Christie trouble. Sp punishment is greatly in his favor. Christie can only rely on speed and mixups. - I honestly like this MU. Brad has just as many great mix ups as Christie. He can also easily crush most of her mids and her highs with his laydown stance. Christie lacks in true mids but has very good lows. Brad also has OHs. Christie is faster, of course, but Brad can slow her down and mess up her offense. Brad being random and hard to read can become a big deal. He also has many low sweeps which are the main threat to her jak. He has crushes just as good, if not better, than hers. Im pretty sure spacing is more in Christie's favor. Brad's throws are superior and his holds. I believe juggle damage and environmental damage is for Christie. 5-5 - Christie is faster, better mixups, great poking, and very evasive. Ein is pretty slow, low mixups, and not the best poking. Ein's best bet is to space her out and punish her the best he can. His holds are ok but they aren't the best. He does come with OHs, which may help. Ein really can't do much to Christie when she is up close and all aggressive. To many characters when Christie is in there she's in there. Her offense totally run straight over his. If he can keep her away and make her whiff, he has a chance. But Christie can make herself look like she messed up. She can do pppp jak bakjak. Ein might think she did ppppp but she cancelled the last P and backed up. If she does things like that Ein has to be very careful. Juggle damage is in Christie's favor and environmental damage. 6-4 Christie favor. - This is one MU Christie can literally run right over. Eliot has many strings that end with a low P, mid P, or a tracking high K. Christie is the only character that can avoid all of them. Her jak ducks under the tracking high and the low P and mid P are linear. Eliot is also lightweight giving Christie the juggle damage. Christie is also faster with better mixups, as I said a million times before. I believe holds and throws are in Eliot's favor. Christie is also more unsafe than he is so he can punish her if her can read and block her strings. Christie is also the better spacer in this MU. 6-4 Christie favor. - Christie is faster and has the mixups but Genfu is more safe and has a few guaranteed things. The 3k Genfu mix ups. He is either gonna use the high tracking GB or the mid P. Christie (Helena too) can avoid both options. Her jak ducks under the high GB and the mid P is linear. Christie does not need to worry about that guessing game. Genfu also has his frame traps. He gets a a guaranteed (I think BT 6p?) from his 44p GB. He gets a guaranteed K after his air grab. After the air throw then K, Christie is put in a guessing game. Does she block or attack/jak/duck to avoid another throw? Gen fu has them annoying moments. Genfu has the better juggle damage, throws, and holds. Gen fu himself is also decent in spacing and closing gaps. 5-5 or 6-4 Gen fu. - Not being as fast and not having great mix ups, Ryu struggles with Christie. Also, not having many good tracking lows will also be a problem due to the bitch always being low. Ryu does have the throw, hold, and juggle damage. He can punish her if he can read and block her strings. On a good read, he can use his Izuna hold and get great damage. Ryu vs Christie spacing game I say is 5-5. Ryu is a great spacer but Christie has good spacing as well. They both also have sitdown stuns that guarantee a launch. Christie can really shutdown many of Ryu's options. At neutral, she dominates. Her mixups are far superior and she has many lift stuns. And her spacing is just as good. Ryu also has a harder time getting a stun and he can't bait holds as easy as she can. 5-5 or 6-4 Christie.I'll finish the rest later. But I do have one more thing to add. Christie does not need to worry about many things as the rest of the cast does. Her jak evades all of:
Leifang's Unshu moves (even the throw0
Lisa's CAR stance moves (even the throw)
Kasumi's hoshninpo moves (even the throw)
Kokoro's heichu moves
Genfu 3k mixups
Momiji's double jump moves (even the throw)
Jann lee's Dragon stance moves (even the throw)
Every other character has to make a good guess from these character's stances. Christie does not. I believe that alone makes her a very good and unique character.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Hm. Lets see some Christie MUs.
I agree with your breakdown though the bold and underlined statements are incorrect. Ein's 2P is arguably one of the best 2P's if not the best 2P in the game as well as his P because of the potential damage of CH PKK. His 3P is also a safe, deep stunning mid that you cannot stagger escape out of. 4P is a 13 frame tracking high that stuns on NH and has spacing / whiff punishment applications. Granted these do not help him much in the Christie MU due to her speed advantage and evasion but yeah. His pokes are among the best.
Ein also does more damage than Christie for less work and he plays off the environment better because most of his juggles end in knock back or have massive wall carry which allow him to reap the benefits of wall splats / damage or danger zones. Same can be said when he gets whiff punishment off. 46P / 236P into a wall is 85+ guaranteed damage on NH if I can follow up on the splat and a danger zone is 110+ in the same scenario.
MU is a 6-4 in Christie's favor for sure I'm just correcting some stuff is all.
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
True. I underestimated him a bit then. Im not sure about the juggle damage though. Christie can get a good juggle off of CH launches like jak P or from launches that launch on NH hit like 33p or 9k. And in environment, like the RPG in hotzone, many characters can only use a long ranged attack to hit the foe. Christie's 9k takes her pretty far to do 9k 2pp 6k4k or her jak pkp reaches pretty far too. Not saying Ein can't juggle from environments that give a low launch i just don't think he can do it as good as Christie can.I agree with your breakdown though the bold and underlined statements are incorrect. Ein's 2P is arguably one of the best 2P's if not the best 2P in the game as well as his P because of the potential damage of CH PKK. His 3P is also a safe, deep stunning mid that you cannot stagger escape out of. 4P is a 13 frame tracking high that stuns on NH and has spacing / whiff punishment applications. Granted these do not help him much in the Christie MU due to her speed advantage and evasion but yeah. His pokes are among the best.
Ein also does more damage than Christie for less work and he plays off the environment better because most of his juggles end in knock back or have massive wall carry, which allow him to reap the benefits of wall splats / damage or danger zones. Same can be said when he gets whiff punishment off. 46P / 236P into a wall is 85+ guaranteed damage if on NH if I can follow up on the splat and a danger zone is 110+ in the same scenario.
MU is a 6-4 in Christie's favor for sure I'm just correcting some stuff is all.
To be fair, Unshu and Heichu are beat by all sidesteps. The Unshu OH doesn't even track standing sidesteps. :v
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
WRK > 66KKK is 44 damage and works in all of those situations you are describing. Assuming 9K 2pp 6k4k is her best damage that's 39 points. This doesn't include the damage done beforehand just the damage of the juggle. If we include damage done beforehand Ein's winning by more than 5 points.
