The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
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Pokerking87
Active Member
My opinion to Christies Match-ups:
Christie vs. Christie = 5-5
Christie vs. Kasumi = 5-5
Christie vs. Alpha = 5-5
Christie vs. Eliot = 6-4 (7-3)Eliot is very linear und easily outpressed by Christies Speed and Mix-Up
Christie vs. Ayane = 4-6 Against Ayane is Rushdown play nearly impossible her Jak is not useless but very carefully to use against Ayane
Christie vs. Helena = 5-5
Christie vs. Rig = 6-4 (7-3) Same as Eliot linear and his Stance easily to punish
Christie vs Bayman = 6-4
Christie vs. Jann Lee = 5-5 Thats a hard Match-Up for both
Christie vs. Bass = 6-4 Srsly 8-2 cmon guys of course Bass is damn slow but he got Lazy Bum and then you need luck to decided right. Overall a better Match-up for Christie because her Speed.
Christie vs. Mila = 5-5
Christie vs. Pai = 5-5
Christie vs. Sarah = 4-6 Sarah the Queen of frametraps and punishment, every mistake against Sarah and you have as Christie Player a big Problem.
Christie vs. Zack = 5-5
Christie vs. Hitomi = 5-5
Christie vs. Akira = 6-4 Slow and linear
Christie vs. Lisa = 4-6 Same as Ayane
Christie vs. Tina = 4-6
Christie vs. Gen Fu = 5-5
Christie vs. Busa = 6-4 Against Busa is Jakheiho your best Friend, all that Ninpo could be easily evaded
Christie vs Hayate = 5-5 Hayate is far slower but he is one of the best spacing Chars and his Range is a lot better than Christies
Christie vs. Fang 4-6
Christie vs. Brad Wong = 4-6 I think Wong is in favor, his bottom stance and all his crush moves makes jakheiho useless.
Christie vs. Kokoro = 5-5 (6-4) 7-3 geez... Kokoro is linear as hell but she is fast not as fast as Christie. Here decided who better outpressed his opponent. Probaly a slight advantage for Christie because better Mix-Up and Jak!
Christie definitely no Top-Tier not by far. She is the unsafest Char, with weak Holds, weak Throws(besides 4T) and she lacks an Damage.
Christie vs. Christie = 5-5
Christie vs. Kasumi = 5-5
Christie vs. Alpha = 5-5
Christie vs. Eliot = 6-4 (7-3)Eliot is very linear und easily outpressed by Christies Speed and Mix-Up
Christie vs. Ayane = 4-6 Against Ayane is Rushdown play nearly impossible her Jak is not useless but very carefully to use against Ayane
Christie vs. Helena = 5-5
Christie vs. Rig = 6-4 (7-3) Same as Eliot linear and his Stance easily to punish
Christie vs Bayman = 6-4
Christie vs. Jann Lee = 5-5 Thats a hard Match-Up for both
Christie vs. Bass = 6-4 Srsly 8-2 cmon guys of course Bass is damn slow but he got Lazy Bum and then you need luck to decided right. Overall a better Match-up for Christie because her Speed.
Christie vs. Mila = 5-5
Christie vs. Pai = 5-5
Christie vs. Sarah = 4-6 Sarah the Queen of frametraps and punishment, every mistake against Sarah and you have as Christie Player a big Problem.
Christie vs. Zack = 5-5
Christie vs. Hitomi = 5-5
Christie vs. Akira = 6-4 Slow and linear
Christie vs. Lisa = 4-6 Same as Ayane
Christie vs. Tina = 4-6
Christie vs. Gen Fu = 5-5
Christie vs. Busa = 6-4 Against Busa is Jakheiho your best Friend, all that Ninpo could be easily evaded
Christie vs Hayate = 5-5 Hayate is far slower but he is one of the best spacing Chars and his Range is a lot better than Christies
Christie vs. Fang 4-6
Christie vs. Brad Wong = 4-6 I think Wong is in favor, his bottom stance and all his crush moves makes jakheiho useless.
Christie vs. Kokoro = 5-5 (6-4) 7-3 geez... Kokoro is linear as hell but she is fast not as fast as Christie. Here decided who better outpressed his opponent. Probaly a slight advantage for Christie because better Mix-Up and Jak!
Christie definitely no Top-Tier not by far. She is the unsafest Char, with weak Holds, weak Throws(besides 4T) and she lacks an Damage.
Pokerking87
Active Member
Fine in bigger stages 7-3 in small 6-4
Good to the see in this Fight from me how good her Stance works against slow Bass. But that need bigger stages to play like that.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Ok ok. I said it was my last reply, but, I can't let this crap about Bass/Kokoro vs Christie slide. Sorry I lied. Wall of text incoming...
tldr;
Don't ignore JAK for speed, because that's biased. Bass and Kokoro are similar against Christie.
Let me explain this a bit more, because it seems people are not getting the argument... I get the whole Bass being slow thing. Really, I do. But you people don't get the other side of the equation. There's a reason I've been talking about JAK this whole time, but you people are too focused on speed.
It's not a fair comparison to look at only Christie's speed, and say that Kokoro can interrupt, and thus she has an easier time than Bass. You are then ignoring Christie's main tool against Kokoro and Kokoro's main weakness. It's only a fair comparison when you look at the worst properties for the given character, against the best tools of the character you're comparing it to (Christie in this case). And this, for each character on its own. Not the worst for one and then put another character in its place pretending it can have only the same weaknesses, but less of them. Another character means another potential weakness, which means you have to adjust your perspective accordingly. Not to mention ignoring Bass' OHs, which is a clear advantage over Kokoro, even over Kokoro's Sabaki. In any case...
First, look at the strengths of the opposing character. Christie's two main strengths are her speed and JAK. They are both tools that she can use at any given time. Bass' weakness is his speed. Kokoro's weakness is her linearity. Now...
- It's logical that Christie is going to use speed against Bass, because he's slow and that gives her more advantage. Bass also has more than enough circulars to deal with JAK, so that strength is not really a (big) advantage against Bass anymore, thus her speed is the main edge she has against Bass. The question then is, how can Bass reliably counter her speed?
- It's logical that Christie is going to use JAK against Kokoro. Kokoro, although slower than Christie, is still quite speedy. She's speedy enough for interrupts, so Christie's speed is not really a (big) advantage anymore, but, Kokoro is very linear, and thus it makes a lot more sense for her JAK tool to be used more, since it's the main edge she has against Kokoro. The question then is, how can Kokoro reliably counter JAK?
Looking at these two questions, neither of them really have an answer to the respective tool the opponent can use. Can you now understand why arguments like Kokoro being safe, having sabakis, being quicker, having mid string grabs, all become irrelevant? None of them help deal with JAK, which exploits Kokoro's main weakness. Her main weakness can not be covered. You people are asking Bass' question about speed for Kokoro, because Kokoro's strengths would obviously help Bass, but that's not the proper way to look at it, because her own strengths don't help negate her own main weakness. I could also argue that Bass is much better than Kokoro by ignoring his speed and only looking at JAK. But you all know that that's not really representative of the real situation, because his circulars and OHs don't help against Christie's speed. Why would it be ok the other way around? Enough comparing apples and oranges. Look at the match-ups in a proper way, and stop having these pre-judgments about how Bass vs Christie MUST BE worse than Kokoro vs Christie.
On another note... There are characters, where you can ask the same questions I asked above about Bass/Kokoro weaknesses, and you'll find ways to reliably deal with any of the above weaknesses. Take, say Hitomi.. She has a punch parry to deal with Christie's speed, she's speedy enough to interrupt, she has enough tracking mid and lows to counter JAK.. So, all in all, it makes sense that Hitomi at least is not at a disadvantage against Christie, because her two main tools can be dealt with reliably. Obviously, if there are more tools they should be looked at. Then you can look at it the other way to determine if Christie is at a disadvantage or not to determine if they really are 5-5.
Now to reply to circular discussions once more... Most of what's written here has already been discussed.... I'll repeat things I just said above, since apparently saying it three times is not enough, so, might as well do it five or six more times. So, feel free to skip this part if you wish...
I'm gonna quote, because this has already been addressed... :
So, I'm going to change it back to this:
Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 6-4
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 7-3
Brad x Bayman 6-4
Can any Kokoro player please back me up on this? Even a Christie player would do (Hi Awesmic xD), or anyone who thinks what I'm saying makes any sense. I'm tired of playing one man soldier.
And if you disagree, feel free to tell my why in a logical manner. Try not to re-use the same old arguments previously posted... If you're out of ideas, explain to me how the speed disadvantage is worse than the JAK disadvantage, because I honestly don't see how that can be the case.
tldr;
Don't ignore JAK for speed, because that's biased. Bass and Kokoro are similar against Christie.
Let me explain this a bit more, because it seems people are not getting the argument... I get the whole Bass being slow thing. Really, I do. But you people don't get the other side of the equation. There's a reason I've been talking about JAK this whole time, but you people are too focused on speed.
It's not a fair comparison to look at only Christie's speed, and say that Kokoro can interrupt, and thus she has an easier time than Bass. You are then ignoring Christie's main tool against Kokoro and Kokoro's main weakness. It's only a fair comparison when you look at the worst properties for the given character, against the best tools of the character you're comparing it to (Christie in this case). And this, for each character on its own. Not the worst for one and then put another character in its place pretending it can have only the same weaknesses, but less of them. Another character means another potential weakness, which means you have to adjust your perspective accordingly. Not to mention ignoring Bass' OHs, which is a clear advantage over Kokoro, even over Kokoro's Sabaki. In any case...
First, look at the strengths of the opposing character. Christie's two main strengths are her speed and JAK. They are both tools that she can use at any given time. Bass' weakness is his speed. Kokoro's weakness is her linearity. Now...
- It's logical that Christie is going to use speed against Bass, because he's slow and that gives her more advantage. Bass also has more than enough circulars to deal with JAK, so that strength is not really a (big) advantage against Bass anymore, thus her speed is the main edge she has against Bass. The question then is, how can Bass reliably counter her speed?
- It's logical that Christie is going to use JAK against Kokoro. Kokoro, although slower than Christie, is still quite speedy. She's speedy enough for interrupts, so Christie's speed is not really a (big) advantage anymore, but, Kokoro is very linear, and thus it makes a lot more sense for her JAK tool to be used more, since it's the main edge she has against Kokoro. The question then is, how can Kokoro reliably counter JAK?
Looking at these two questions, neither of them really have an answer to the respective tool the opponent can use. Can you now understand why arguments like Kokoro being safe, having sabakis, being quicker, having mid string grabs, all become irrelevant? None of them help deal with JAK, which exploits Kokoro's main weakness. Her main weakness can not be covered. You people are asking Bass' question about speed for Kokoro, because Kokoro's strengths would obviously help Bass, but that's not the proper way to look at it, because her own strengths don't help negate her own main weakness. I could also argue that Bass is much better than Kokoro by ignoring his speed and only looking at JAK. But you all know that that's not really representative of the real situation, because his circulars and OHs don't help against Christie's speed. Why would it be ok the other way around? Enough comparing apples and oranges. Look at the match-ups in a proper way, and stop having these pre-judgments about how Bass vs Christie MUST BE worse than Kokoro vs Christie.
On another note... There are characters, where you can ask the same questions I asked above about Bass/Kokoro weaknesses, and you'll find ways to reliably deal with any of the above weaknesses. Take, say Hitomi.. She has a punch parry to deal with Christie's speed, she's speedy enough to interrupt, she has enough tracking mid and lows to counter JAK.. So, all in all, it makes sense that Hitomi at least is not at a disadvantage against Christie, because her two main tools can be dealt with reliably. Obviously, if there are more tools they should be looked at. Then you can look at it the other way to determine if Christie is at a disadvantage or not to determine if they really are 5-5.
Now to reply to circular discussions once more... Most of what's written here has already been discussed.... I'll repeat things I just said above, since apparently saying it three times is not enough, so, might as well do it five or six more times. So, feel free to skip this part if you wish...
I'm gonna quote, because this has already been addressed... :
You'll get hit ten times before you actually land one. By pure chance it's 25%, by reading, you have to predict one of the fastest character in the game that has one of the best mixup games... And then.. Bass + OHs.. Read below.
That doesn't mean shit when all her attacks do nothing against JAK. JAK is what differentiates Christie from any other character out there. It's her unique tool, and one that can be abused like crazy on Kokoro, unlike against any other character in the game (except maybe Akira). How are you people so good at ignoring this tool? Bass may not be able to defend with attacks, but neither can Kokoro, and even if she could, Bass has low and mid circulars to deal with JAK while Kokoro has literally zero reliable tools to deal with JAK. And Bass has a tracking 15 frame mid. By being able to punish JAK, Christie's mixup game has already been reduced quite a bit. AND he has OHs, which Kokoro lacks completely, including a 10 frame low one. You're not honestly gonna tell me that her Sabaki is a better tool than the crazy high damage OHs Bass has...
False dichotomy. Maybe you should start considering that Bass is not worse than Kokoro against Christie. Note that this is only for Christie. Kasumi or Pai is a whole other story. Speed alone is not a good enough argument to say Kokoro has an easier time than Bass against Christie, like explained above.
So, I'm going to change it back to this:
Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 6-4
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 7-3
Brad x Bayman 6-4
Can any Kokoro player please back me up on this? Even a Christie player would do (Hi Awesmic xD), or anyone who thinks what I'm saying makes any sense. I'm tired of playing one man soldier.
And if you disagree, feel free to tell my why in a logical manner. Try not to re-use the same old arguments previously posted... If you're out of ideas, explain to me how the speed disadvantage is worse than the JAK disadvantage, because I honestly don't see how that can be the case.
Size of the ring makes no difference. You were playing a defensive spacing game against Bass. You use a character who has a low attack that's faster than his fastest attack. You can go all day mixing up between high punch, mid punch, and mid kick while string delaying. In a smaller area it's especially difficult for Bass because he can't use his defensive spacing to avoid Christie's quicker methods to apply pressure.
It's 7-3.
It's okay, they won't nerf her.
It's okay, they won't nerf her.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Definitely 6-4 or 7-3 from the way I see it.
In the end Hayate's fastest tools are 10 frame jab straight to a 12 frame mid punch (6p) and mid kick (7k). The balance comes to the fact that Busa can simply advanced hold the punch and put Hayate in the air for more guaranteed damage than Hayate could ever get off of 6p. Also if the timing is bad, 6p on NH is still -12 so you can block the follow ups which are both unsafe but no matter what Busa is in no immediate danger. If that wasn't enough, a jab will still stop 6p clean.
A jab will also stop 7k clean but beyond that, it's -30 on block. I'd rather not whiff a move like that in front of Busa who could probably 214p, 33p, Hayate for it, let alone 214p sho-ho for big damage. On the bright side, Busa's fastest mid is 13i. It's only a 1 frame difference.
I'll write a full analysis on why I think it's 6-4 (possibly 7-3) later on and post it here, just give me a little time cause it'll be a long one.
(nevermind, I'm going to write it now)
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Busa can't see a 12 frame mid...so everytime I go for an Izuna counter you get a chance for a free hi counter throw of your choice. That sounds pretty even. Hayate wins in speed and the spacing game. Who says you have to go for 6P constantly? Pretty sure he has better stuns regardless. Plus doesn't Hayate have normal hit mid kick launchers? Hayate's strength is in staying away and punishment. His speed is just something you can annoy people who are not grapplers with. Since Ryu can punish 6PK. Hayate's SSP is also amazing.
Blacka Blocka Flocka
Member
Hayate
66P
3fk
qcb p
wind dash
Busa
33p
onygoin elbow
flying guard break knee
butterfly kick guard break
spinning headbutt
flying big toe
front flipping headbutt - safe sit down stun
teleport
66P
3fk
qcb p
wind dash
Busa
33p
onygoin elbow
flying guard break knee
butterfly kick guard break
spinning headbutt
flying big toe
front flipping headbutt - safe sit down stun
teleport
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
you forgot 214K, 236K and 4P. 4P might not have the range of the others but it has great mixup potential. 236P is also a decent whiff punisher. 3K is also a safe mid range poke.
He does but you have to be careful if you are considering a raw 8K. 33K is safe if you 33KK, but lets not forget people can hold that second K if you intend to use it as a blockstring.
Pokerking87
Active Member
Lol! For what they are other Chars they should nerfed! Christie strikes High Bass CH with 1pp lets go lazy bum, christie try Jak Bass use his 6 H+K lazy bum again. Srsly Bass is Not as Bad as everyone here complaining. I Play himself sometimes Bass because he is Fun!
Pokerking87
Active Member
Sure, i know how dangerous Bass can be with his FTs, Lazy bum and his Overall Damage. Her 2H+K2p is 17 frames not faster than Bass Jab.
7-3 match-up of Ryu v Hayate in Ryu's favor is crazy.
Hayate has the speed, string mix-up, crushes and gap-closing advantage with similar throw/juggle power, leaving Ryu only with better holds and silly gimmicks. Ryu doesn't have an advantage, let alone a 7-3 one.
I'm going with either 5-5 or 6-4 Hayate.
Hayate has the speed, string mix-up, crushes and gap-closing advantage with similar throw/juggle power, leaving Ryu only with better holds and silly gimmicks. Ryu doesn't have an advantage, let alone a 7-3 one.
I'm going with either 5-5 or 6-4 Hayate.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
The only level where match up signifigantly change is home vs Hayabusa. . .
Christie is definitely a great character, but so is Kokoro. It's obviously not complete.
Christie is definitely a great character, but so is Kokoro. It's obviously not complete.
Jaguar360
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I have definitely changed my matchup from earlier. I completely forgot about Hayate's speed. I'm 6-4 now in Hayabusa's favor.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
You do realize that you can throw Christie out of stance? Or block it, none of which are relativley safe. What you seem to dislike is being forced to play defense when most of Kokoro's match ups she can play offense all day.It's disadvantagous, no one will disagree there, but it's no as bad as you claim.
Kokoro has an easier time than Bass because she's much faster. She only needs that one good hit to wipe away 50% life, Bass as well, but hitting Christie is just harder for a slow character. It's a defining charactaristic of the match up.
Pokerking87
Active Member
She is Good, no doubt but a Char that needs a Lot of more effort than other like Jann Lee or Kokoro.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Effort is relative to the player really. I won't be able to win pick up Jann and press the win button all day.
