The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[TRI Mike]

Wait, we still don't have a tier list¿

 

[Tenryuga]

How in the world is Hayate vs Hayabusa 3 - 7 in Busa's favor? Despite Hayate having poor mixups outside of stun he still has the better spacing / footsie tools and is better at close combat / pressure than Busa. Hayate is also punishing Busa's mistakes hard with 236T 7K and Raijin / Nakiryu on whiffed holds. Once Hayate does get the stun he isn't anymore predictable than the next character; high extender, low extender, mid p / mid k extender or throw. So if you're going to say Busa's holds (which require a good read if he doesn't want to get launched or thrown for high damage) make the matchup hard for Hayate you might as well say Busa can do that vs the rest of the cast for easy wins. I admit I don't know much about Busa so I won't deny that the matchup isn't in Busa's favor but Hayate is most definitely not struggling to fight Hayabusa. At the worst 6 - 4 Busa if Hayate indeed loses to him IMO. Any Hayabusa players want to provide some insight?

 

[Jaguar360]

How in the world is Hayate vs Hayabusa 3 - 7 in Busa's favor? Despite Hayate having poor mixups outside of stun he still has the better spacing / footsies / get in tools and is better at close combat / pressure than Busa. Hayate is also punishing Busa's mistakes hard with 236T 7K and Raijin / Nakiryu on whiffed holds. Once Hayate does get the stun he isn't anymore predictable than the next character; high extender, low extender, mid p / mid k extender or throw. So if you're going to say Busa's holds (which require a good read if he doesn't want to get launched or thrown for high damage) make the matchup hard for Hayate you might as well say Busa can do that vs the rest of the cast for easy wins. I admit I don't know much about Busa so I won't deny that the matchup isn't in Busa's favor but Hayate is most definitely not struggling to fight Hayabusa. At the worst 6 - 4 Busa if Hayate indeed loses to him IMO. Any Hayabusa players want to provide some insight?

True, my matchup may be a bit drastic. I think I forgot to mention Hayate's speed and stun game in my analysis. However, Hayabusa has the range, power, damaging expert holds, and throws to beat Hayate IMO. Hayate will still mostly be doing mids and only has a few good high and low strikes. Hayabusa can use an expert hold against either a mid punch or mid kick. Ryu can space just as well as Hayate and has better long-range. 6-4 or 7-3 in Ryu's favor are both good to me.

 

[TakedaZX]

True, my matchup may be a bit drastic. I think I forgot to mention Hayate's speed and stun game in my analysis. However, Hayabusa has the range, power, damaging expert holds, and throws to beat Hayate IMO. Hayate will still mostly be doing mids and only has a few good high and low strikes. Hayabusa can use an expert hold against either a mid punch or mid kick. Ryu can space just as well as Hayate and has better long-range. 6-4 or 7-3 in Ryu's favor are both good to me.

In the end you'll just have a more annoying time playing as Hayate vs Busa than Busa vs Hayate.

 

[J.D.E.]

Busa vs Hayate to me is 5-5. 7-3 is overkill. Hayate's speed is most definitely a problem for Hayabusa while Hayate is pretty linear & has to rely on the stun game. But because Hayate is the speed demon in this 1, Ryu has to keep him off-balance by crushing him & rely on reading him. Ryu's holds are better than Hayate's & his damage output as well. Hayate has an easier time with throwing than Busa because his are faster. Hayate is better than Haybusa out in space But in the end, this match is definitely not a 7-3. 5-5

Haven't this match been covered already?

 

[Jaguar360]

Busa vs Hayate to me is 5-5. 7-3 is overkill. Hayate's speed is most definitely a problem for Hayabusa while Hayate is pretty linear & has to rely on the stun game. Ryu's holds are better than Hayate's & his damage output as well. Hayate has an easier time with throwing than Busa because his are faster. Hayate is better than Haybusa out in space But in the end, this match is definitely not a 7-3. 5-5

Haven't this match been covered already?

I wasn't sure if this was covered already when I first wrote it. 6-4 is probably better. I don't think that Hayate's bad or anything, but I'm pretty sure that Busa wins.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Mr. Wah posted a comment with a beta tier list of sorts on page 51.

I don't think that we should really give that list much credit though. There are still tons of matchups that haven't been discussed yet. That list doesn't really mean anything. If we keep at these discussions though, we'll get a finalized one soon enough.

Then we'll have to do it all over again for DOA5++.

 

[dawnbringer]

I don't think that we should really give that list much credit though. There are still tons of matchups that haven't been discussed yet. That list doesn't really mean anything. If we keep at these discussions though, we'll get a finalized one soon enough.

Then we'll have to do it all over again for DOA5++.

We could make the discussion more easily observable by making "Match-ups" category with 276 threads in it for every match-up bar mirror ones. This way everyone could participate in specific match-up they have knowledge about, and we could have an idea which are being discussed by looking at message counts and dates.

This thread could be used to compile results together then.

 

[J.D.E.]

I wasn't sure if this was covered already when I first wrote it. 6-4 is probably better. I don't think that Hayate's bad or anything, but I'm pretty sure that Busa wins.

What puts the match 6-4 in Hayabusa's favor? His tracking moves? I know you're not saying that he's "bad" or anything like that. Nor am I disagreeing with you. I'm saying that this is a fairly even match.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

We could make the discussion more easily observable by making "Match-ups" category with 276 threads in it for every match-up bar mirror ones. This way everyone could participate in specific match-up they have knowledge about, and we could have an idea which are being discussed by looking at message counts and dates.

This thread could be used to compile results together then.

That could work, but I'm sure that certain matchups would still be ignored, unfortunately. Still, we might get more done that way.

 

[DR2K]

Wait, we still don't have a tier list¿

We do a shit ton of them, no one agrees and people die when one gets posted.

 

[Jaguar360]

What puts the match 6-4 in Hayabusa's favor? His tracking moves? I know you're not saying that he's "bad" or anything like that. Nor am I disagreeing with you. I'm saying that this is a fairly even match.

In my post on page 51, I said that Hayabusa's damage potential for holds against Hayate's frequent mid punches, mid kicks, and high punches is very high thanks to his expert holds for those. Hayabusa also has better long-range moves than Hayate and has just as good of a mid-range game. Hayabusa also does more damage in general with his combos, throws, and holds and can throw punish pretty well with 6T, 66T, 214T on Hayate's many unsafe moves. On the other hand, Hayate is faster and throw punishes better with 236T (and Hayabusa is just as unsafe as Hayate, so that will come in handy). However, that is just not enough to beat or tie with Hayabusa. I also main both of these characters, btw.

 

[NightAntilli]

You brought up a good discussion point, dont stop to spare someone's E-feelings.

I'd say Bass vs Chrsitie/Kasumi is as close to 3-7 as possible. Kokoro has the ability to block and start up the stun game from frame advantage, she's a lot faster than Bass who will struggle to even do this.

Just because Kokoro has an easier time than Bass against Kasumi, doesn't mean that it's the same against Christie... Bass might have an equal or even easier time than Kokoro against Christie, because he at least has circulars/tracking moves, both lows and mids.

(1)She also has guardbreaks, (2)safety, (3)sabakis, (4)built in throws from strings, (5)and has a much easier time than Bass for getting around highs/high mids.

What is it with people repeating the same thing over and over and expecting their argument to get better? I numbered them, and I'm gonna tackle them again, and quote the arguments already presented when applicable.

1) That guarantee nothing. Christie has an uber fast one that actually guarantees something. Not to mention any follow-up thrown out by Kokoro is easily sidestepable by Christie.

2)

Kokoro being safe isn't that important because of Christie's speed, and she won't be really looking to grab unsafe moves either, but putting pressure with attacks.

Plus, Christie's damage does not come from her grabs. Not to mention it's irrelevant when Kokoro easily whiffs everything.

3) This is pretty much the same as 1T. Expecting to land this in any reliable manner is unrealistic. The risk is much too high to consider it a plus against anyone as fast and mixup heavy as Christie.

4)

So, for example, Kokoro does PP. Which ender did Kokoro choose? Grab? 6P? Doesn't matter, as JAK will evade all of them.

That says it all.

5) But a much harder time dealing with JAK.


This is my final post on this. I'll let Mr.Wah draw his own conclusion.

 

[TakedaZX]

*snip*

^I like this guy.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Then we'll have to do it all over again for DOA5++.

However we'll have a basis for it so we can make minor changes.

I'll let Mr.Wah draw his own conclusion.

It doesn't matter what I conclude. I'm just throwing numbers on the document as people give them out. Awesmic coming in and throwing in all the matchups for Christie has given discussion over those. Most people come in here, complain that the list is "wrong", and don't want to contribute to getting it done. Putting numbers on the board is the best progress. If you see a matchup you feel is wrong then post up what you think it is and why. It's very simple, but everyone else would rather complain about why the finished product isn't out yet, and that's because everyone is too busy complaining about why the finished product isn't out yet.

So current matchups for discussion are:
Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 6-4
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 6-4
Brad x Bayman 6-4

So either choose a different match-up to replace on the list, or change any of the current matchup numbers and state why.

 

[MajesticBlue]

How in the world is Hayate vs Hayabusa 3 - 7 in Busa's favor? Despite Hayate having poor mixups outside of stun he still has the better spacing / footsies / get in tools and is better at close combat / pressure than Busa. Hayate is also punishing Busa's mistakes hard with 236T 7K and Raijin / Nakiryu on whiffed holds. Once Hayate does get the stun he isn't anymore predictable than the next character; high extender, low extender, mid p / mid k extender or throw. So if you're going to say Busa's holds (which require a good read if he doesn't want to get launched or thrown for high damage) make the matchup hard for Hayate you might as well say Busa can do that vs the rest of the cast for easy wins. I admit I don't know much about Busa so I won't deny that the matchup isn't in Busa's favor but Hayate is most definitely not struggling to fight Hayabusa. At the worst 6 - 4 Busa if Hayate indeed loses to him IMO. Any Hayabusa players want to provide some insight?

Ryu has a buffed stun game now but mostly everything else he has is a gimmick. I would say it is 5-5 both have to pretty much get in and stun then guess. Ryu has better holds, Hayate better punishment. Hayate has a better wall game.Ryu has way more CB! options. Both have good crushes. Hayate has better keep out imo. Hayate also has safe mids to pester Ryu with. It could be argued that the match up is in Hayate's favor imo. The only thing that says no is Izuna holds. Unless your throwing out random Izuna holds the matchup can be very annoying for Ryu. Hayate kinda walls him. 5-5 for now at least.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

However we'll have a basis for it so we can make minor changes.

I know. That further fuels my interest in completing the current MU chart, so that it doesn't take as long to finish the ++ revision later. I just want to get this damn thing finished. We should have a finished MU chart by now, since the game's been out for seven months.

And speaking of the chart, I was just looking at it again and noticed that Pai x Bayman is a 3-7. Why is that? I don't recall ever seeing this discussion. Is it because she has a lot of highs that make her vulnerable to tank roll and expert holds? I can see that making sense, but a 3-7? I'd bet that her speed alone can make it a 4-6. I don't believe that a 3-7 MU is impossible in DOA (Bass x Kasumi/Christie are good examples that have already come up), but I do think that there are very few of them. I'm going to replace the Brad x Bayman MU with this one and set it to 4-6 to see if anyone can explain why this MU is apparently so hard for Pai. I don't see it, myself.

Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 5-5
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 6-4
Pai x Bayman 4-6

 

[NightAntilli]

However we'll have a basis for it so we can make minor changes.



It doesn't matter what I conclude. I'm just throwing numbers on the document as people give them out. Awesmic coming in and throwing in all the matchups for Christie has given discussion over those. Most people come in here, complain that the list is "wrong", and don't want to contribute to getting it done. Putting numbers on the board is the best progress. If you see a matchup you feel is wrong then post up what you think it is and why. It's very simple, but everyone else would rather complain about why the finished product isn't out yet, and that's because everyone is too busy complaining about why the finished product isn't out yet.

So current matchups for discussion are:
Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 6-4
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 6-4
Brad x Bayman 6-4

So either choose a different match-up to replace on the list, or change any of the current matchup numbers and state why.

I've been arguing for Kokoro vs Christie being 7-3 in favor of Christie this whole time. So, the list would be:

Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 6-4
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 7-3
Brad x Bayman 6-4

Wanna read why? Read my previous post.

 

[Matt Ponton]

You feel that the Christie x Kokoro match is just as bad as Christie x Bass?

I feel that it's a better matchup for Kokoro than Bass. I'd personally lean towards 6-4 Christie due to the ability Kokoro has with her sabakis and quicker attacks. She can actually defend with attacks unlike Bass.

So either Christie x Kokoro would be 6-4 or Christie x Bass is 8-2 and Christie x Kokoro is 7-3. I don't think anything is really deserving of an 8-2 matchup at this time in the game's life.

Zack x Helena 5-5
Ryu x Hayate 6-4
Rig x Gen Fu 4-6
Christie x Kokoro 6-4
Brad x Bayman 6-4

=========
Updated the OP
Based on the current in progress match-up chart, here are the current tiers:
May 3, 2013 12:04PM (GMT - 5)
S: Leifang, Sarah, Ayane, Christie
A: Jann Lee, Kasumi, Lisa, Gen Fu, Alpha-152, Brad
B: Akira, Helena, Mila, Pai, Bayman, Rig, Hayabusa, Tina, Hayate, Hitomi, Zack,
C: Eliot, Kokoro, Bass

 

[Pokerking87]

Christie toptier and Kokoro low? LOL!