The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Right. Everything can be avoided with a proper read. Thats is why like you said the matchups will all be so close. My only argument is does reading or guessing belong in the tier placement of a character? The game mechanics themselves allow the game to be balanced. So no matter what the tier placement nothing is unwinnable. Some characters will have far better tools though regardless, tools that I don't feel should be completlely negated by the universal mechanics. Even more so if to take advantage of the tool you have to guess. Not saying everything is a guess but sometimes we all know it comes down to it.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
1T is a huge risk to use. The only time to safely use it is on low hold. You can get hit hard for using it at any other time, especially against speedy characters like Christie, who can transition into attacking at any time during her shenanigans. Guessing correctly is not exactly the place for matchup discussions.
Her heichu options are easily sidestepable by Christie.
For her to open with her mid string grabs, she has to be in a pressure position in the first place, which is very hard against Christie. Which Christie is gonna turtle you when they can sidestep, crush and outspeed you?
Just because she has those, doesn't mean that Christie's advantage isn't still overwhelming. Christie has all those as well, plus a lot more. And Kokoro being safe isn't that important because of Christie's speed, and she won't be really looking to grab unsafe moves either, but putting pressure with attacks. Considering both players are equally skilled at those options you mentioned, Christie will walk all over Kokoro.
This will highly likely be my last post on the matter. Going in circles quickly gets old.
Holds are suppose to involve the player reading someone well enough. What tool (an attack) is normally feared, loses to the hold. Stagger escape works for stuns (some stuns more effectively) so every given combo situation isn't always truth. Side step is relevant because of the obvious non-tracking factor in the game.
Speed is not what solely gives a character advantage over another character (Look at Kasumi vs Ayane/Christie vs Ayane/Pai vs Ayane/Sarah vs Ayane for example).
Speed is not what solely gives a character advantage over another character (Look at Kasumi vs Ayane/Christie vs Ayane/Pai vs Ayane/Sarah vs Ayane for example).
You guys have to understand just how bad a 7-3 is. There are 7-3 matchups in this game, but I don't think that they are as frequent as you guys make them out to be. With a 7-3 match up you are basically saying that almost anyone can pick this character and beat yours for free without much effort.
This is an example of a 7-3/8-2
I don't think any match up in DOA is as extreme as this.
This is an example of a 7-3/8-2
I don't think any match up in DOA is as extreme as this.
Blackburry gets it.
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
So from what I'm understanding, Kokoro vs Christie is not 3-7 because Kokoro can stun and hold?
Kokoro has good damage output, yes. Except you kind of have to hit your opponent, which JAK more or less nullifies her entire moveset. Seriously. Kokoro does not have a tracking low, and she has one tracking mid within 46PP (so say something like i32). JAK will also evade her instring grabs. So, for example, Kokoro does PP. Which ender did Kokoro choose? Grab? 6P? Doesn't matter, as JAK will evade all of them.
Christie is also faster with better spacing tools. Kokoro's throw damage is quite a bit better, but her holds are only slightly better.
Kokoro is in a similar position vs Bayman where his tank roll will cream her. Sure, she has 1T (also against JAK), but that's a huge risk to take. Plus Bayman is a super-heavy, so her damage is reduced. Another 3-7 I'd say (maybe 4-6, only because Kokoro is faster).
If being scared to even attack, at the fear of being SSed/TCed to death isn't 3-7, I'm not sure what is. (Disclaimer: Just my opinion based off of my personal matches).
Kokoro has good damage output, yes. Except you kind of have to hit your opponent, which JAK more or less nullifies her entire moveset. Seriously. Kokoro does not have a tracking low, and she has one tracking mid within 46PP (so say something like i32). JAK will also evade her instring grabs. So, for example, Kokoro does PP. Which ender did Kokoro choose? Grab? 6P? Doesn't matter, as JAK will evade all of them.
Christie is also faster with better spacing tools. Kokoro's throw damage is quite a bit better, but her holds are only slightly better.
Kokoro is in a similar position vs Bayman where his tank roll will cream her. Sure, she has 1T (also against JAK), but that's a huge risk to take. Plus Bayman is a super-heavy, so her damage is reduced. Another 3-7 I'd say (maybe 4-6, only because Kokoro is faster).
If being scared to even attack, at the fear of being SSed/TCed to death isn't 3-7, I'm not sure what is. (Disclaimer: Just my opinion based off of my personal matches).
Bass-Kas/Chr is still 3-7, really. Just pick up Bass and play against a player using these characters and you'll understand. And the guy really doesn't have an easy time against the cast unless someone let's him take initiative by making a mistake.
Then again, not many people play him since he's mentally taxing at times. The rest of the cast have a much easier time dealing with these super fast characters.
I don't think Kokoro's matchup against Chr is that awful though, but she really does have these big weaknesses, where everyone can take advantage of her.
Then again JAK is retarded, so it makes it even harder.
Then again, not many people play him since he's mentally taxing at times. The rest of the cast have a much easier time dealing with these super fast characters.
I don't think Kokoro's matchup against Chr is that awful though, but she really does have these big weaknesses, where everyone can take advantage of her.
Then again JAK is retarded, so it makes it even harder.
Edited my post above Tokkosho's, I meant to say respond to Majestic Blue differently. Not inaccurately.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
What is shown in the video is not really what you're saying (which I marked in bold). If it's for free, then what does 9-1 mean? In any case, I see two pro players, while one has to work a lot harder, and still loses. Note that the health bars are usually still very close. There's effort from both sides. Honestly, the video I see is the exact same situation as Kokoro and Christie...
How's this any different?
I think Kokoro's speed alone could keep it at 4-6 Bayman.
Tank roll is super easy to bait honestly. Especially offline.
As for this christie vs kokoro discussion....lets play a FT5 sometime soon Awesmic.
As for this christie vs kokoro discussion....lets play a FT5 sometime soon Awesmic.
All this over a handful of numbers just to get things rollin'... I underestimate this crowd.
OK, I need time to read over this stuff. I'll edit and update on several replies where possible.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm changing this to either 6-4 or 5-5 just to ease things up here. I'm rubbing far too many people the wrong way, and I ain't the most stray-savvy person around. Just... don't hate me.
OK, I need time to read over this stuff. I'll edit and update on several replies where possible.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm changing this to either 6-4 or 5-5 just to ease things up here. I'm rubbing far too many people the wrong way, and I ain't the most stray-savvy person around. Just... don't hate me.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
"No 7-3 matchups", HAH!
Thing about Christie's SS is that you need a well-timed mid/low or tracking mid/low. Some unfortunate characters lack that luxury allowing her to "dance around" them as DR2K said. Hell I don't even think there's a safe or somewhat safe tracking mid that Kokoro or Eliot have that can deal with that, let alone lows...
But this isn't me throwing numbers though, I'm just dropping that into the equation since that is what's necessary to stop one of her main tools. (Jak)
Thing about Christie's SS is that you need a well-timed mid/low or tracking mid/low. Some unfortunate characters lack that luxury allowing her to "dance around" them as DR2K said. Hell I don't even think there's a safe or somewhat safe tracking mid that Kokoro or Eliot have that can deal with that, let alone lows...
But this isn't me throwing numbers though, I'm just dropping that into the equation since that is what's necessary to stop one of her main tools. (Jak)
DR2K
Well-Known Member
You brought up a good discussion point, dont stop to spare someone's E-feelings.
I'd say Bass vs Chrsitie/Kasumi is as close to 3-7 as possible. Kokoro has the ability to block and start up the stun game from frame advantage, she's a lot faster than Bass who will struggle to even do this. She also has guardbreaks, safety, sabakis, built in throws from strings, and has a much easier time than Bass for getting around highs/high mids.
Jaguar360
Well-Known Member
Mr. Wah posted a comment with a beta tier list of sorts on page 51.
P1naatt1ke1tt0
Active Member
All I have to say at this point is CHRISTIE, the new surprise top tier!