Nioh General Discussion

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
it is still at its core an action game, developed by the developers of Ninja Gaiden (best action game series in general, IMO), and is something they delivered in all games
I dunno about that. Ninja Gaiden 3 vanilla was rough, to say the least.

So, as someone who has played DS2, DS3, and Bloodborne. and loved all 3 of them, how similar would you say Nioh would be like one of them? I've actually been checking the game out for a while now, and it looks pretty cool, even more so do to Japanese myhtology seeming to be a large plot point, which is something I am interested in learning more about.
IMHO, it's not very much like those games at all. The xp/grave system, bonfire/shrine system and co-op system (to an extent) will be familiar, but beyond those things, the game is completely different. Levels are set into modular instances rather than one large worldmap, equipment is more Diablo-like (lots of items of varying rarity, rather than few drops with preset stats) and combat is fast, fluid, responsive and varied in a way that Dark Souls doesn't try to be. I've heard people compare it to Bloodborne, but I certainly wouldn't.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
By the way, didn't want to get you guys off topic, but I keep seeing this on FB NiOh groups so wanted you guys thoughts on this. A huge ton of people have been asking for NiOh to be open world. Neutral on this but if it worsens the game in any way then my answer would be no.

Do you think NiOh should be open world similar to DS instead of just picking a region and a mission then boom? do you think they can pull it off? I'm curious as to why and I'm hearing different reasons but yet most of the reasons is because it's their general taste of the idea or because they don't want to be in loading screens. One response was "I want NiOh to be open world because i grow tired of all these loading screens pls make open world" and I'm sitting here like "The loading wasn't really that bad though and never truly bothered me or ate up too much time."

You guys think NiOh should take this approach or it's fine the way it is even for the next game following the original in the same fashion?

EDIT: In fact, didn't the developers mentioned in an article that having the game in open world would cause stability issues and frame drops or something like that?
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Personally, I'm sick of open-world games. Technical limitations aside, it emphasizes a less replayable gameplay design, limitations in aesthetic variation, and doesn't really offer any advantages. Star Wars Galaxies is really the only open-world game I can think of that pulled it off successfully, and even that one was split between planets. I'm aware that some people find it more immersive, but I've honestly never found that to be the case (outside of SWG).

TL;DR: Open-world sucks.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
The Kusari-gama has the best range in the game. Even in mid stance, it's quite easy to hit mutliple targets with the square button, so long as you are moderately competent at positioning yourself.

Thats why chose it... and yet it misses quite often... if I have to be within dry humping range to actually hit anything not directly infront of me.

Its also useless against bosses... so I just rolled with the Battle Axe for the Damage.

They're usually tied to skills. Parries are always invincible when they connect. Blade-spin for the kusari-gama has some i-frames, etc. Grapples (backstabs and heavy moves agaisnt enemies with zero ki) also have i-frames.
LoL... the game doesn't tell me any of this.... more importantly it gave me no parry... I've been Kiting my way past everything.

Yeah, but in God of War it's clear that more focus went into the flashy finishing moves than refining the core combat mechanics. Judging based on pure gameplay, the God of War games are pretty damn boring. Their appeal is in their sense of scale and adventure.

No it isn't clear.... its clear in Asura's Wrath that they were focusing on flashy moves since the game is literally 90% QTEs.... God Of War has a perfectly competent combat System enemies and bosses... sure you finish them with QTEs but you fight them first.... hell... Bayonetta follows the same formula just with less Flash... but thats just what I remember from GoW 2 & 3.... I never played the others.

DMC certainly never solved this "problem." DMC3 is the worst offender of all, because you're trying to manipulate the camera constantly. Only it's not to show you your enemies, it's that you're trying to NOT see your enemies so they don't attack you. It's really dumb. In DMC4 shit is attacking you off-screen all the time (fausts, chimera-lizards, blitz, etc.).
What do you want me to say.... its never happened... if I got hit in DMC4 it was because of that god awful Button Combination for performing an evasive roll.

And as I told @Sotherius if thats what you did with your Camera then thats your own fault.... the game in no way encourages you to exploit the camera to avoid getting hit.... its unnecessary, because the game doesn't try to undermine any of the mechanics it gives you.... you don't need to exploit the enemy's path finding limitations or its off camera behavior or its inability to stop you from poking it in the butt because the games gives you mechanics that actually work.... thats not to say its impossible... obviously you could if you want to but my point is the game doesn't push you torwards it.

TN didn't "copy" Dark Souls anymore than Crash Bandicoot "copied" Super Mario Bros.

Never played Crash... and yeah NioH exists only because of Souls Fever.... its more similar to the souls games than anything they've made before.

Some of the structural elements were taken from Dark Souls that I didn't feel needed to be

Me too... :(

The combat in Nioh is mechanically much different and it feels much different. If you're unable to get past having a target-lock then fine, that's your prerogative, but it's not like the Souls games invented or even pioneered target-locking in action games (target-locking is a thing in DMC, for example, as well as countless other action games).
And yet some how it manages to have literally the exact same problems as Dark Souls...

The combat mechanics are more robust than the Souls games and yet it literally doesn't feel any deeper... it feels like I'm just pressing more buttons to do the samething.... Ki Pulse... as useful as it is just feels like Busy work for getting my Stamina back.... which is not surprising... they shouldn't have implemented a Stamina Bar in the first place... its just forced Down Time.... whats so enjoyable about being forced to wait every six seconds ? If I wanted that kind of drama I'd just get something from the app store.

Yes, i'm talking about kinships, if you're on the platform, most of their attacks happen offscreen, which is a non problem considering each attack has a different sound.

They Do ?

But if you're them then you can see them and their attacks.... I never dodged them by sound alone, I could see them clear as day.

If every audio is distinct from one another and the game does the correct audio balancing (which NiOH does), you should be able to tell what you're hearing. "Oh, i'm hearing a bowshot, let me adjust for that".
In NioH... I hear William Grunting when he takes an arow in the back.... I literally never hear them being fired BECAUSE THEY'RE BOWS !!! They are silent. I haven't been shot at with any Rifles or Magic yet. But the Bow Enemies are just as quiet as the Blow Dart Snipers in Blight Town.

but it is still at its core an action game

Yeah literally doesn't matter In literally in Genre.... if you throw in a levelling system into anything It may aswel just be an RPG, abstract progression mecanics undermine whatever core experience the game was suppose to be... the extent varies from game to game but in NioH and all the other Souls Clones its particularly Strong.

and is something they delivered in all games, it doesn't matter how much "unfair" or "bullshit" or "impossible" a challenge is, you can overcome with skill, with practice, with better reactions, with better understanding of the mechanics, and learning all of that is part of the fun.

Uhm... no....it merely takes longer.... NioH doesn't require the level of skill Ninja Gaiden 2 does..... its mechanics just aren't Robust enough to be challenging to me.... the game is obviously resorting to the classic trap common in RPGs where they just throw more enemies at you that do more damage and have more health.... and that doesn't makes things harder.... it just makes everything take longer.

So, as someone who has played DS2, DS3, and Bloodborne. and loved all 3 of them, how similar would you say Nioh would be like one of them? I've actually been checking the game out for a while now, and it looks pretty cool, even more so do to Japanese myhtology seeming to be a large plot point, which is something I am interested in learning more about.
If you're in for the gameplay... you'l love it.... if you're in it for a sense of narrative cohesion like Dark Souls 1 & 3 then I don't know.... its not my area of expertise but from what I can see, NioH isn't as good at setting up lore stuff the way Dark Souls 1 & 3 are...

So, as someone who has played DS2, DS3, and Bloodborne. and loved all 3 of them, how similar would you say Nioh would be like one of them? I've actually been checking the game out for a while now, and it looks pretty cool, even more so do to Japanese myhtology seeming to be a large plot point, which is something I am interested in learning more about.
If you're in for the gameplay... you'l love it.... if you're in it for a sense of narrative cohesion like Dark Souls 1 & 3 then I don't know.... its not my area of expertise but from what I can see, NioH isn't as good at setting up lore stuff the way Dark Souls 1 & 3 are...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Thats why chose it... and yet it misses quite often... if I have to be within dry humping range to actually hit anything not directly infront of me.

Its also useless against bosses... so I just rolled with the Battle Axe for the Damage.
It's pretty much the single-most effective weapon against every yokai boss in the game. It sounds like you're just mashing and not getting the results you want.

LoL... the game doesn't tell me any of this.... more importantly it gave me no parry... I've been Kiting my way past everything.
When have games ever told you which moves have i-frames? DMC and God of War certainly don't, but apparently you're fine with those.

No it isn't clear.... its clear in Asura's Wrath that they were focusing on flashy moves since the game is literally 90% QTEs.... God Of War has a perfectly competent combat System enemies and bosses... sure you finish them with QTEs but you fight them first.... hell... Bayonetta follows the same formula just with less Flash... but thats just what I remember from GoW 2 & 3.... I never played the others.
God of War is a sweep-happy mashfest. If you seriously played the series and consider it a prime example of refined combat mechanics, it's very likely that what appeals to you is a visual extravaganza strung together by slightly interactive segments rather than a tight, nuanced action game. And that's fine, but confusing the two makes you confusing at best and painfully ignorant at worst.

If you know me at all, you know that I'm not the type to bury poor design decisions by claiming that the player needs to "git gud," but I have to say, in this particular case, it really seems like you're just bad at certain action game mechanics and struggle to do simple shit and are blaming the games for the unenjoyable experience instead of your own ineptitude.

What do you want me to say.... its never happened... if I got hit in DMC4 it was because of that god awful Button Combination for performing an evasive roll.

And as I told @Sotherius if thats what you did with your Camera then thats your own fault....
Oh, the irony! What do you want me to say? All of your complaints with Nioh never happened to me ololol
If you didn't position the camera to see the relevant enemies in Nioh, then thats your own fault

"But Brute, Nioh encourages you to move the camera and I can't do it"
-Well everyone else can and they can do it fine. Perhaps you're just struggling to do simple things that are present in almost every game ever made. But that is literally the definition of "your own fault."

"If it has a movable camera, I hate it by default. Bad game design."
-Sagelike!

Never played Crash... and yeah NioH exists only because of Souls Fever.... its more similar to the souls games than anything they've made before.
Your myopia is astounding. Derivative/inspired works are not copies of the source material if they introduce a wealth of new or refined elements that evolve the format. The popularity of the Souls series likely lead to the funding required to make Nioh as polished as it is, and certain elements were included to appeal to that market, but that doesn't mean it's a "copy." The gameplay elements we've been talking about were not copied from Dark Souls. We've addressed multiple ways that Nioh functions differently as a result of it's combat functioning in a rather idiosyncratic fashion. The combat is not a copy of Dark Souls combat simply because it has a target lock.

And yet some how it manages to have literally the exact same problems as Dark Souls...

The combat mechanics are more robust than the Souls games and yet it literally doesn't feel any deeper... it feels like I'm just pressing more buttons to do the samething.... Ki Pulse... as useful as it is just feels like Busy work for getting my Stamina back.... which is not surprising... they shouldn't have implemented a Stamina Bar in the first place... its just forced Down Time.... whats so enjoyable about being forced to wait every six seconds ? If I wanted that kind of drama I'd just get something from the app store.
It doesn't feel deeper because you haven't bothered to actually figure it out. You somehow can't figure out how to use the kusari-gama's AoE capabilities, you can't beat bosses with the game's most versatile boss-killing weapon, you don't know how to take advantage of i-frames, you haven't bothered to learn about living weapons, etc. You're like a guy who arbitrarily moves random pieces across a chess board and then complains that chess doesn't feel complex. Maybe you could try learning the game and then assess it after you know what the hell you're doing.

If you're in for the gameplay... you'l love it.... if you're in it for a sense of narrative cohesion like Dark Souls 1 & 3 then I don't know.... its not my area of expertise but from what I can see, NioH isn't as good at setting up lore stuff the way Dark Souls 1 & 3 are...
IMO, Nioh's world-building is far superior to the Souls games.

Also, don't double-post.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
It's pretty much the single-most effective weapon against every yokai boss in the game. It sounds like you're just mashing and not getting the results you want.

You're Half Right.... I'm not getting the result I want.

It doesn't feel deeper because you haven't bothered to actually figure it out. You somehow can't figure out how to use the kusari-gama's AoE capabilities

LoL... it has none.... in the Mid Stamce the first light attack is short.... the 2nd and 3rd light attacks look like they're longer but as far as I can tell that hitbox doesn't surround william.... it just goes further ahead of him.

you can't beat bosses with the game's most versatile boss-killing weapon, you don't know how to take advantage of i-frames, you haven't bothered to learn about living weapons, etc.

Duh !!! I can't take advantage of things that are not taught to me.... lol I don't even know how if I can block attacks coming from behind... this was Dark Souls's problem too, it with holds information from you just to kill you.

Maybe you could try learning the game and then assess it after you know what the hell you're doing.

How did you figure out all these things ?

IMO, Nioh's world-building is far superior to the Souls games.

Perhaps it is... Lore isn't my thing... I just wanted Gameplay....
 

Sotherius

Well-Known Member
How did you figure out all these things ?

The game has a tutorial that teaches the basics, then the game has specific tutorial missions for each weapon and playstyle, then the game also has a movie demonstration of any skill that you can acquire before you even get it. How you're supposed to learn the rest? By testing, by trying to understand. Experimenting and learning its deeper mechanical aspects is part of the deal with action games is part of the fun.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
LoL... it has none....
And the sky is green.

Duh !!! I can't take advantage of things that are not taught to me.... lol I don't even know how if I can block attacks coming from behind... this was Dark Souls's problem too, it with holds information from you just to kill you.
Literally no game tells you every aspect of every gameplay mechanic. If it does, it must be an incredibly simple game. They aren't intentionally withholding information from you. Hell, you can hit the fucking start button on virtually any U.I. screen to get a description on what pretty much everything does, which is far more than almost any game ever made offers. It's just a very complex game and there's a lot to learn. It's not withholding information just to kill you.

Sure there's stuff to figure out on your own, but that's the case with every game ever. I mean, are you going to sit there are complain that a game has never spoiled the end boss and all of its attacks before you fight it? No. That's something you have to figure out for yourself. And unless you are either A) very impatient, or B) very stupid, you will figure out all the essentials on this one by just playing naturally.

How did you figure out all these things ?
I read descriptions, tried out different scenarios that piqued my curiosity, took note of what things were working and what things weren't and tried to figure out why.

Basically, I used common sense.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
And the sky is green.

Glad we've come to an understanding.

Literally no game tells you every aspect of every gameplay mechanic. If it does, it must be an incredibly simple game.

This is true... but in well designed games, if a mechanic is deemed unintuitive... great developers help you figure out the Nuances of that mechanic by slowly easing you in and using level design to help you figure it out.... Mario's ability to jump higher if the button is held down longer is one of the more iconic examples of this design methodology, in the game, the developers would place obstacles in order of ascending height in front of the player to help them get accustomed to it.... hell, they may not even be aware that this is happening... they just stroll around thinking : "I totally Got This !!!". LoL... Gamers have fragile egos, its Nice of Nintendo to secretly help those gamers out.

Ofcourse some mechanics are just way too abstract to show off in practical methods... particularly if its invisible or requires sort of resource.... in which case they should just out right tell the player.... its better than leaving them in the Dark..... Souls.... lol... see what I did there ;)

It's just a very complex game and there's a lot to learn.

A games Depth should Scale with its complexity... or it runs the risk of being Convoluted.

Basically that means if your game is complicated and takes a while to learn then it should result in more options... a larger possibility space. In the case of Dark Souls and its clones the gameplay is really simple... Attack Dodge Attack Dodge... wait for Stamina to regenerate Attack Dodge... rinse and repeat. Its got all the nuance of Lego Star Wars. The complexity is in Reverse Engineering whatever backwards logic the developers put into the game regarding leveling upgrades and damage and whatever... otherwise the fights just drag on because you're not doing enough damage to the enemies or the game becomes ultra tedious and repetitive because you keep having to replay sections everytime an enemy instantly kills you... this problem isn't unique to Souls type Games it plagues pretty much any RPG or any game with RPG Elements. .. you may or may not have seen me bitch about it in The Witcher 3.

The process of giving players more health and Damage doesn't require such a complicated system. I mean thats what all that Fire water lightning damage and resistances crap is.... they're damage Modifiers.

Thats why I like Bastion.... it didn't resort to this False sense of Depth... those things didn't exist in that game because it wouldn't change the fact that you're just going to go in there and keep doing what you've always done... Attack Dodge Attack Dodge... rinse & repeat.... okay they did have Fire Damage but thats as far as they went.

I read descriptions, tried out different scenarios that piqued my curiosity, took note of what things were working and what things weren't and tried to figure out why.

Basically, I used common sense.

So... Trial & Error ?

Don't get my wrong Its not the nature of trial and error that bothers me.... okay maybe it is... but whats worse is being punished for trying... if a game requires trial and error to figure out then it shouldn't be so punitive when you fail.... after all... failing is inevitable.... had NioH just used stuck with plenty of Checkpoints or a manual save System then I wouldn't have anything to Bitch about....:"But nooooo... look at me... I can be Dark Souls too!!!" LoL... Stupid Bonfi.... I mean Shrines !!!
The game has a tutorial that teaches the basics, then the game has specific tutorial missions for each weapon and playstyle, then the game also has a movie demonstration of any skill that you can acquire before you even get it. How you're supposed to learn the rest? By testing, by trying to understand. Experimenting and learning its deeper mechanical aspects is part of the deal with action games is part of the fun.

I made sure I did that tutorial and I read and tried to understand what they explained to the best of my ability it didn't rush it to get back into the game.... the only time it mentioned I would be invulnerable to damage was during my Living Weapon mode.... it didn't say jack about other weapons or attacks being invincible.

I also pop open my inventory and check my Amrita Memories for any new Tutorials or hints... none of them describe what you and Brute have been telling me.

This isn't my first Rodeo... I've played Souls Games before... they leave shit out... not by accident... they do it on purpose because HARDCORE.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
This is true... but in well designed games, if a mechanic is deemed unintuitive... great developers help you figure out the Nuances of that mechanic by slowly easing you in and using level design to help you figure it out.... Mario's ability to jump higher if the button is held down longer is one of the more iconic examples of this design methodology, in the game, the developers would place obstacles in order of ascending height in front of the player to help them get accustomed to it.... hell, they may not even be aware that this is happening... they just stroll around thinking : "I totally Got This !!!". LoL... Gamers have fragile egos, its Nice of Nintendo to secretly help those gamers out.

Ofcourse some mechanics are just way too abstract to show off in practical methods... particularly if its invisible or requires sort of resource.... in which case they should just out right tell the player.... its better than leaving them in the Dark..... Souls.... lol... see what I did there ;)
Ki pulse is unintuitive. They straight-up tell you in the tutorial how it works.
Throws/grapples/finishing moves having i-frames is incredibly intuitive, so they don't bother to lecture you on it.

Nioh is just not guilty of deliberate obfuscation. They don't tell you every single move that has i-frames, but again, no game does.

A games Depth should Scale with its complexity... or it runs the risk of being Convoluted.

Basically that means if your game is complicated and takes a while to learn then it should result in more options... a larger possibility space. In the case of Dark Souls and its clones the gameplay is really simple... Attack Dodge Attack Dodge... wait for Stamina to regenerate Attack Dodge... rinse and repeat. Its got all the nuance of Lego Star Wars. The complexity is in Reverse Engineering whatever backwards logic the developers put into the game regarding leveling upgrades and damage and whatever... otherwise the fights just drag on because you're not doing enough damage to the enemies or the game becomes ultra tedious and repetitive because you keep having to replay sections everytime an enemy instantly kills you... this problem isn't unique to Souls type Games it plagues pretty much any RPG or any game with RPG Elements. .. you may or may not have seen me bitch about it in The Witcher 3.

The process of giving players more health and Damage doesn't require such a complicated system. I mean thats what all that Fire water lightning damage and resistances crap is.... they're damage Modifiers.
You've got to be trolling.
You could uncharitably boil down any game, regardless how complex, to sound ludicrously simple if you wanted to (go on and tell me any game -hell, any subject; I can dismissively write it off as simple). "Fighting games are just attacking and dodging.. rinse repeat." The most amusing part about this, however, is that you don't even understand the bare basics of the game you're criticizing and yet have the audacity to claim that it's not complex. Nioh does result in more options as a result of its complexity. Example:
"wait for Stamina to regenerate Attack Dodge... rinse and repeat"
You don't have to wait for your stamina to recharge when you have a ki pulse. You don't even have to dodge if you don't want to. Yes, that is an option. You wouldn't know about it, of course, because you looked at the game for all of 5 seconds and decided it was a Souls clone despite knowing absolutely fuck all about it and then crossed your arms and started lambasting the game like some smug contrarian.


So... Trial & Error ?

Don't get my wrong Its not the nature of trial and error that bothers me.... okay maybe it is... but whats worse is being punished for trying... if a game requires trial and error to figure out then it shouldn't be so punitive when you fail.... after all... failing is inevitable.... had NioH just used stuck with plenty of Checkpoints or a manual save System then I wouldn't have anything to Bitch about....:"But nooooo... look at me... I can be Dark Souls too!!!" LoL... Stupid Bonfi.... I mean Shrines !!!
The punishment for death is pretty negligible in Nioh. Aside from having to go through the same area again upon death (standard action game stuff) the only effect death has is removing your guardian spirit and losing xp if you don't collect your grave (at which point the guardian spirit auto-returns). Personally, I would just summon your guardian spirit from the shrine if you die. You'll lose the xp, but due to the way level scaling works in Nioh, you'll build up that xp in a matter of seconds a few levels down the line, and getting that small boost in level until said point rarely makes any notable difference.

If you're opposed to that for whatever reason you could always just train up ninjutsu and get the silent walking/invisible ninpo and then coast through the areas you went through until you get back to your grave site. And before you say "the game didn't tell me that I could do that," just read the fucking skill tree like any sensible person would.

This isn't my first Rodeo... I've played Souls Games before... they leave shit out... not by accident... they do it on purpose because HARDCORE.
It's almost like you're not even talking about Nioh and are instead just thinking back to your time with the Souls games because you felt they were the same in every notable way, despite the ever-growing amount of empirical evidence presented to you that suggests otherwise. If your strategy is just to be senselessly stubborn until people give up trying to reason with you, I guess it's working.

That or you're just one of those people who is really, really bored and likes stating deliberately contentious things to watch well-intentioned people on the internet waste their time trying to reason with it. Whatever the case, I'm done. Enjoy not enjoying good things because they require a slight amount of brain power and simple problem-solving.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Ki pulse is unintuitive. They straight-up tell you in the tutorial how it works.
Throws/grapples/finishing moves having i-frames is incredibly intuitive, so they don't bother to lecture you on it.
Throws & Grapples ?
 

Project Bokuho

Lady Helena's Pet
Premium Donor
Honestly. It's not that hard adapt in this game. People these days are just too lazy and want everything handed to them instead of learning, even though there is already a tutorial :/
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
31195576_202909883829248_965921695145656320_n.jpg

31302005_202909960495907_7861753690468646912_n.jpg

31234984_202909900495913_1645480246876569600_n.jpg

31287476_202909720495931_7478976438293495808_n.jpg
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Looks like the PC version has a CE that can edit the game's weapon/armor/accessory traits, saw this on reddit:


I probably won't be doing this as I'm practically bored with the game. I'll probably play it if someone wants to coop I guess.
 

NinjaRayMan

Active Member
I figured we would get Nioh 2 before NG4 given the popularity and sales success Nioh had.
Its the next best thing to Ninja Gaiden and the best game Team Ninja has put out since NG2 imo.
Give me a Jin Hayabusa skin/ side story and I'll be happy.
I wonder if the demon transformation replaces the living weapon.
No release date so we may not be getting this anytime soon but it seems a little early for a sequel anyway
So many good looking Samurai games coming..about time!
 
ALL DOA6 DOA5 DOA4 DOA3 DOA2U DOAD
Top