System Frame Data Explained

virtuaPAI

I am the reason why you are here!!!
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Recovery Frames 12(2)23: These frames are when you cannot perform any input after the active frames. This is your recovery period. You can try hitting buttons, but nothing will happen until 23 have passed. If I use :6::6::P: and I don't connect on your character, that is considered a whiff. You have 23 frames to punish me with a throw or strike. If you're executing a string move like :3::H+K::P::4::6::6::P+K:, you can ignore the recovery frames on :3::H+K: and :P: due to them being part of a string. :4::6::6::P+K: is the move you need to account for the recovery frames because it was the last input used

-The Only thing I need to add to this great thread!!! Is the fact that in the very last frame of recovery, you can input :h: at that very moment. Here comes another DOA twist, you will only be able to block at state you recover in. So lets say you recover standing, if your opponent executes a low attack that aligns exactly with those particular recovery frames, than that low attack will be guaranteed! The exact same thing applies when recovering crouched and an opponent executes a mid attack that aligns exactly with those particular recovery frames!!! The only way a block would fully execute if said counter attack aligned exactly with your character's recovering state. I hope this didnt add to the confusion lol.
 

Sly Bass

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
-The Only thing I need to add to this great thread!!! Is the fact that in the very last frame of recovery, you can input :h: at that very moment. Here comes another DOA twist, you will only be able to block at state you recover in. So lets say you recover standing, if your opponent executes a low attack that aligns exactly with those particular recovery frames, than that low attack will be guaranteed! The exact same thing applies when recovering crouched and an opponent executes a mid attack that aligns exactly with those particular recovery frames!!! The only way a block would fully execute if said counter attack aligned exactly with your character's recovering state. I hope this didnt add to the confusion lol.
The advanced stuff will come later. Don't want to overwhelm them!
 

XZero264

FSD | Nichol
Premium Donor
@XZero264 - You put Leon's data together, didn't you? I rather not send him to the headache of the Japanese frame data docs.
@Sly Bass @Grimace
I did but I need to make time to run through Leon's commands again for Last Round. Only one thing was actually changed (9P is now -2 on block) and one property was moved (walled 66T is now walled 33T) but there are things called stealth buffs that I want to find so I have time planned next week to update the Leon data for Last Round as well as finally add Leon's back turned strikes to the list.

Until then the link below is Leon's frame data as of patch 1.08, the last patch before the Last Round title update (2.0/LR1.01):
http://www.freestepdodge.com/wiki/leon-frame-data-doa5u-1-08/

When I update it next week the URL will probably change but you will be able to find it here:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/wiki/leon/
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
After reading this extremely helpful post, I still don't understand the fundamental difference between recovery frames and (dis)advantage on block.

I always thought they were the same thing? But what I notice is that disadvantage on block is usually less extreme than the amount of recovery frames.

Example:
Akira's 66P has 23 recovery frames.
Akira's 66P is -5 on block.

Is there some way to calculate (dis)advantage on block? And how is (dis)advanatage on block related to recovery frames?
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
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Administrator
Standard Donor
No.
The opponent will be in block stun for the 23 recovery frames. Once those recovery frames expire then Akira is 5 additional frames of inactivity.

An easy example to see this is have the training dummy set to Akira and record :2::H+K::P: then guard it. It's 0 on block but it will feel like it's advantage because it has a huge recovery on it and you have to wait until the recovery expires before advantage/disadvantage kicks in.
 

Randzz

Active Member
Don't take this as an insult, but how useful would this be to me as:
  1. A casual player?
  2. One who only plays online these days anyway?
How would this come into play when things for online come into the picture, such as lag? Short of my getting a job in the gaming industry, I can pretty much say that the days where I'd do the offline scene are behind me.

I do like that you put it in fairly simple terms (always a plus in my book).
 
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Sly Bass

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Don't take this as an insult, but how useful would this be to me as:
  1. A casual player?
  2. One who only plays online these days anyway?
How would this come into play when things for online come into the picture, such as lag? Short of my getting a job in the gaming industry, I can pretty much say that the days where I'd do the offline scene are behind me.

I do like that you put it in fairly simple terms (always a plus in my book).
Frames help in your decision making, regardless of online or offline. You know how much risk is involved when you attack back based on your strike, throw, or offensive hold. You also know how much risk is involved if you use an unsafe move. You also know your eligible follow ups to keep them in the stun game and remove the possibility of them stagger escaping out of the stun if you use the correct moves.

You'll win a lot more.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
No.
The opponent will be in block stun for the 23 recovery frames. Once those recovery frames expire then Akira is 5 additional frames of inactivity.

An easy example to see this is have the training dummy set to Akira and record :2::H+K::P: then guard it. It's 0 on block but it will feel like it's advantage because it has a huge recovery on it and you have to wait until the recovery expires before advantage/disadvantage kicks in.
By what you're saying, Akira actually recovers after 28 frames, while the opponent still recovers in 23. I don't think this is exactly true. Why? Because the properties of the move are what they are, and the animations of the attacker are intertwined with those properties. The animations of the attacker remain the same. If the move gets an additional 5 frames of stun, we would have to see different animations between when a move hits and whiffs. In this case it's fine and probably unnoticeable by using the same, but what of moves that are -17 on block or something? Would they have the character freeze in place for all those additionally added frames? No...That's not how it works.

There's indeed this thing called a block stun, but this is for the blocking opponent, not the attacking one, unless you use it interchangeably with the recovery frames of the attacker. Just like every attack has a specific amount of recovery frames (in this case 23), every attack has a specific amount of block stun frames that leaves the opponent 'stuck'. The block stun is a constant, just like the recovery frames of the attacking move. Depending on whether the block stun is shorter or longer than the recovery frames, the attacker is either at an advantage or disadvantage. So in this case, the block stun is actually 18 frames, having Akira recovering its 23 frames. -5 means that the opponent actually recovers 5 frames faster than Akira's 23 frames, not that akira's stun is extended to 28. This also easily explains why (dis)advantage can change based on which active frame the move actually connected. Akira's :6::6::P: can actually be -4 rather than -5 if the move hits on its 14th frame rather than the 13th frame. It's the reason why Leifang's :7::K: can be anywhere from +4 to +11 depending on the distance, rather than a constant +4. I don't see how your version would explain this phenomenon.

Another way to confirm that this is the case is the change in Momiji's :7::K:. The move changed from -14 to -25. The frame data stayed exactly the same, the move stayed exactly the same. The only difference is that the opponent now simply recovers a LOT faster from the move, rather than Momiji recovering slower. Same goes for Kokoro's :P+K:.

As for the :2::H+K::P: explanation, well, most medium to heavy moves are around ~30fps recovery. Some a bit more, some a bit less. That's in reality about half a second or 500ms, which is actually a really long time in fighting games. Most people start complaining about too much input lag online when the delay is around 80 ms, just to give you an idea of how much 500ms recovery actually is. Akira's :6::6::P: recovery of 23 frames is around 383ms. The opponent in block stun can react after 18 frames, which is exactly 300 ms.


If anyone wants a slightly more detailed explanation, here's an old explanation of mine over at DOAWorld that goes a bit more in depth, but is still quite simple to understand:
http://www.doaworld.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3598-the-basics-of-frame-data-sort-of/
 

Fiend Busa

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
So to counter hit you have to do a move that activates in less than or equal to 11 frames?

I always see people fuzzy out of moves. Is this viable for all moves that have a lot of recovery frames? Thanks
 

petopia

Active Member
Kreygasm if you come from a tekken back all this knowledge is considered normal its not even after thought frame data should be innate in every bodies minds.
 
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just_me

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Standard Donor
Is there some way to calculate (dis)advantage on block? And how is (dis)advantage on block related to recovery frames?

As a basic approximation
advantage(P1) = stun - recovery
is good enough, though

adv(P1) = stun - (recovery+active-impact)

is more accurate, where
"P1" is the player that attacked
"stun" is the duration P2 is stunned (hit or guard does not matter here, tho we all know that crit stuns are no constants in DoA),
"recovery" is... well your recovery as listed in the framedata
"active" are your active frames as listed
"impact" is the active frame your move actually connected
stun, adv, recovery and active frames are given (the move details tool shows those), stun and impact are not. You can assume an attack connects in it's first impact frame, if performed at close range.
 

Sly Bass

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
hey @Sly Bass did u finish the rest of tina's frame data?
No I haven't. I've captured the main data elements I look for in my document.

For a full document, look in the Tina forum. Someone did her complete frame data as well. What makes mine unique is that I did the break down of when the first active frame hits. It helps for finding unholdables, force techs, and wake up kick clashes.
 

Heikou

Active Member
Standard Donor
Still some stuff that doesn't make sense to me as far as frame data goes.

Anyone know why Kokoro 3K is guaranteed after 8P6P, but not her 6K? They both have the same number of startup and active frames, and 6K doesn't whiff or anything like that. Some other characters have things similar to this, but is just the best example I can think of.
 
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