Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes

[EMPEROR_COW]

Snip

I believe we had the same disagreement before, and I think my opinion regarding this particular thing has not changed.

For the most part, Sit down stuns DO in fact guarantee a follow up even on fastest SE. Granted, the follow up is not necessarily always a launcher, but still it doesn't eliminate the fact that the follow up is actually guaranteed. Some characters however lack this property, particularly Hitomi and Eliot. Those 2 characters need a better tweak to the frames of their sit downs in order to give them more use and that sense of reward that you've mentioned. (by the way, from what I've heard, Eliot has infact been improved from that aspect)

- We already have stuns that give guaranteed follow ups. (Faint, Limbo .. and now the recently introduced Flops).
- We have stuns that do not allow SE but allow hold (Crumples)
- We have stuns that do not allow holding for a short duration but can be SE'ed .. (Sit down , Slips .. and in some rare cases Lift stuns giving natural combos)

- The rationale behind keeping the SE in the sit down is that you can play the gamble card of using a more favorable follow up at the risk of being slow escaped and either blocked or even held. There is great value and depth in that sort of mixup. (One example comes to mind is Christies 214P into 8K launcher)
-If you don't want to play that mind game then you can simply do the guaranteed extra stun you can land.

If they eliminate SE from sit down then what exactly is the point of burst ?
Burst was intended to create a scenario that is unholdable and unescapable for a long duration in order to allow almost any follow up including a powerblow. Now granted the sit down will not guarantee a powerblow, but neither would a burst when your health is beyond 50%.
Without SE, sit downs would end up being the same as burst, even launch wise since characters in crouching state get launched higher anyway. Not to mention that it would create a lot of brain dead scenarios where a critical burst would end up being guaranteed from a single hit. (pre 1.03A Gen Fu comes to mind... hes still severely brain dead in my opinion).

The reward critical burst grants is way too high to allow this to happen and I believe removing SE from sit downs would detach a huge part of what makes DOA what it is.
Right now, most the cast (excluding Eliot and Hitomi) have setups that would grant the reward of a critical burst through 1 guess (or 2 tops).... I think that's more than fair if you ask me. and the mix up to play around with stun or input a launcher is still intact.

This is how I feel about the situation.

 

[MrMoon360]

1) Nothing you said there is in opposition to anything I have said previously
2) Complication/simplicity is not the real issue.

Do tell what is the real issue, because I believe that is the issue.
The learning curve is too steep for an incomplete/questionable system.

You seem to be okay with the complexity, defending its solidity.
That's where our opinions differ and that's why I quoted you.

If you feel like you're options are too limited against a stunned opponent, try being a stunned opponent against a poker with reset set-ups. It becomes clear that being in stun sucks.

I think that anyone that believes you are at an advantage when you open up that can of worms known as deep stun, definitely opposes what I'm saying about the game. While the statement is true, this advantage is like no other game, and right now, I don't think its done right.

If it wasn't such a risky task to get max launch height, maybe this system wouldn't be so unappealing. And when I say risk, I'm not just talking about counter damage. I'm talking about the mere ability to stop you at each strike within stun threshold. And with free canceling and string delay as prevalent as it is, there's no true logical way to guess someone's attack and counter it

Without the characters I know and have grown attached to, this game wouldn't even be the slightest bit enjoyable.

 

[Tenryuga]

So it's sounding like the easy solution is to make the stun system like DOA2U / 3.1s. I'm all on board for that. I've also heard the DOAD stun system being praised. Whatever nice mechanics from that game that don't exist in 5 or 2U / 3.1 should be apart of the stun system. Personally I think this is the recipe for the ultimate DOA game:

- DOA 2U threshold and launch mechanics. With less chances to guess and more reward for the attacker in max launch height off any launch the defender is forced to make the right reads if they don't want to take huge damage.

- An updated version of DOA 3.1 frame data for all characters with frame advantage on guard and HIT.

- DOA 4 ground game and force tech mechanics. (I heard there was period of time where you couldn't hold after being force teched. I'm indifferent toward this Idea. Dunno how you guys feel.)

- DOA 5 wall splat mechanics and guaranteed stuns. TN just needs to make sure that the guaranteed stuns actually accomplish something for ALL characters and not just some. I personally don't care if they guarantee a CB or not. Just make the payoff for landing them good by allowing launchers and specific setups to be performed.

- Guard breaks that are guard breaks. No I shouldn't have to sit there charging for one minute just to get +3. If I BREAK your guard that means you are either OPEN to an attack or at a DISADVANTAGE. Akira's GBOD is a perfect example of what a legitimate guard break is. They don't need to be that godlike but damn. Wtf is -5 for breaking somebody's guard? I penetrate your defense but I am the one that has to be on the defense now? SMH.

- NH launchers with good height. I shouldn't have to stun or counter hit somebody if I want to put them in the air.

-More NC's in stun.

- And finally stages that offer more ways to interact with the environment. For those of us that compete in this game I believe this is one of the main draws and is something that can provide for depth in competitive play due to the way one can set people up to take advantage of the environment. I find how well Hayabusa can use the environment to his advantage a beautiful thing and it would be nice if some chars were just half as good as he as at it especially if they had unique ways to interact with the environment.

I believe this to be a solid foundation to make DOA more competitive and TN can make tweaks and adjustments as things go on. With OUR guidance of course because they seem to have no idea what they want to do atm.

 

[Berzerk!]

You shouldn't have to play the gamble card after putting the opponent in sit down
You already gambled

 

[grap3fruitman]

So it's sounding like the easy solution is to make the stun system like DOA2U / 3.1s.

I've been pushing for this for over a year at this point... A few people have. It needed to happen with DOA5 but it didn't and it sadly won't with DOA5U. I'll settle for E3 2012 style "Critical Bursts" for DOA5U because that should actually be easily doable.

I've also heard the DOAD stun system being praised.

Yeah, in a "least smelly turd" kind of way. It's still a turd.

You shouldn't have to play the gamble card after putting the opponent in sit down
You already gambled

Why should you get some kind of advantage just because you out-played me? That's cheap!

 

[Berzerk!]

Let me add in response to ec's post about sit downs, removing the SE variable from sit down stuns is not just about CB and it wouldn't replace CB.
Remember you still have to build the threshold so
Single stun > Sit down > CB would not burst (two counter hold chances)
It would still be stun > stun > sit down > cb (three guesses)

If the opponent is looking for the sit down (usually a slow move) there are plenty of chances to counter so the Doa mind games are retained

The attacker might still need to stun> sit > stun > cb or launch or throw mixup

The important thing is it introduces a more solid plank in the currently rickety path to big guaranteed damage, and makes more mini situations viable for small to medium damage

I basically fits the theme everyone agrees to - better reward for winning the mind game and landing your hits, lower life and decent damage for ATTACKING so rounds are fast, dynamic, and players know what to do to close out a round

This will give people's re purpose to their play which will be far more satisfying and exciting

 

[Berzerk!]

Also it doesn't need the doa2 stun system as much as they just need to tweak the stun threshold to get better launchers earlier (amounts to something similar)
Movement and neutral game including better advantage on more moves especially guard breaks is also important, but that's all well covered

The main points are all very much agreed and TN needs to see post #2 and respond
Please tweet and point it out

The good thing here is I don't think we've been TOO prescriptive in the consolidated post and they will be able to apply their own design solution to "more guaranteed damage and frame advantage, lower hold damage longer hold recovery, lower default life setting"

 

[NinjaMonkey]

I disagree with the removing SE druing SDSs thing at least if they stay the same like they are now. What happens when i counter hit my opponent with a SDS? It would lead into a huge combo with 2-3 SDSs and a high laucher. Also what EP wrote is all true. You guys basically want to reward the smarter player more but I think removing the ability to SE druing SDS's is the wrong way because there are many SDSs that are relatively fast, low crush and/or they are safe on block. On top of that you could do combos with 2 or 3 SDSs into a high launcher or CB or Throw the opponent against the ceiling and then do 2 or 3 SDSs into CB. That huge dmg potential has to be balanced out by making SDSs unsafe and at least i25 slow but if they make that then no one will use them in a high lvl match. What you guys want is more guaranteed dmg but it would be alot smarter and easier to decrease the dmg scaling druing a juggle and buff the combos that way or increase the launch hights like it was requested earlier.
I dont think that the SDSs or the dmg output is the main problem in doa5. I also think that they have to reward the smart player more. In DOA alot of players dont care if they wiff and that is because you can only punish them with a throw (if they are not too far away) or with a fast hit. In my opinion TN has to buff the wiff punishment by adding a counter hit dmg bonus while you are throwing/hitting the opponent druing his recovery frames similar to VF and that will also buff the block punishment which is also much needed. The next thing is the SS. A string should not track a succsessful SS, they have to make SS moves a bit faster, every character sould have a launcher out of a SS and an OH should not get a counter hit on a SS. An other thing is that they have to remove the stun from counter hit wake up kicks and they should remove the ability to SE druing a small critical hit that gives +10 and less on hit. That way wake up kicks arent nerfed too hard and small crit low attacks get buffed. Next thing are the force techs. The FTs are not needed if they nerf the wake up kicks like i said above and when they buff the dmg of ground hits. What i dont like about FT is that you barely sacrifice dmg for doing them and that you can do them in too many situations. They have to change/nerf one of those things because it makes a come back or a rush down way too easy. The only character that should be able to do a FT in many situations is Bass. BTW in VF arent any FTs and no one is complaining. Next are the parries. If a parry missed it should resuld in a counter hit because the defending player was completly missreading his opponent and should be punished for that. And the last thing are the throws. Throws that are i10 and faster should be breakable on normal hit. That wouldnt mess up the punishing if TN puts the opponent into a counter hit state when he is thrwon druing his recovery frames (like i said above). I want to make clear that my ideas only make sense if all of them are implemented in the game because they depend on each other and balance each other out like the nerfed FTs on one hand but the nerfed wake up kicks, buffed ground hits, buffed small critical low hits, and nerfed parries on the other. I hope i made everything easy to understand and i hope someone from TN stumbles over it haha

 

[Brute]

Do tell what is the real issue, because I believe that is the issue.
The learning curve is too steep for an incomplete/questionable system.

You seem to be okay with the complexity, defending its solidity.
That's where our opinions differ and that's why I quoted you.

It's not overly complex and the learning curve isn't all that high, actually. The only things that give it unnecessary complication are exceptions that are not properly explained. For example: why is Kasumi's H+K unholdable? Why are a bunch of low crush prone to being struck by low attacks anyway? Who knows. Stupidity.

DOA is more of a thinking game and less of a reflex game. That's not to say reflexes aren't important (they are), but DOA has more simple executions than many, etc. DOA is all about the mind games. Theoretically speaking, you can win any match by using only blocks (high and low) and throws if you can get into your opponent's head perfectly. When people say there's no guaranteed damage, they're wrong. There is guaranteed damage, you just have to play smart, not aggressive, to get it. For example, Tina has a standing throw (not even a combo one) that deals 120 damage on Hi counter and is unescapable. That's almost half health for your opponent messing up and using one standard hold in the wrong situation. Similarly, certain environment combos can deal 80-100% health for only 1-3 mistakes/wrong reads by an opponent in the wrong place.

DOA is all about getting in your opponent's head. Some people either A) suck at that or B) don't like that and would prefer set-ups that always work. There's nothing wrong with that, but they did choose a strange fighter because that's not the focus of DOA. It's all about using options that limit the options your opponent A) can do and B) will likely do. Personally, my favorite thing to do in DOA hands-down is bait out holds and get super-whopping awesome HiC throws.

I've already stated my proposed changes many times, so I won't repeat them all. The gist of it, though, is a shorter threshold, max launch height respective to move regardless of stun threshold (unless move requires CH or stun to launch initially), better/revised crush mechanics, more natural combos, five or six point holds (low holds should have to distinguish punch or kick), alteration of slow escape and more, deeper sit-downs stuns.

And with free canceling and string delay as prevalent as it is, there's no true logical way to guess someone's attack and counter it

Yes, there are ways to guess it. Again, mind games. Analyze which options they have, which have higher payoff, what matches their playstyle, etc. "Oh, but they could always do something else." That's the idea. You need to dominate their mind, not their character. The character simply manifests the mind in different ways.

Anyway, feel free to say you disagree and "Oh, we shouldn't be thinking about our opponent's options after one hit connects because we want 60% guaranteed damage," if you like, but at the end of the day, you're looking at the game wrong. DOA is not like other fighting games; it's not trying to be. That doesn't mean it's broken. It would be like me playing Poker and whining that I have no guaranteed set-ups.

 

[Tenryuga]

NinjaMonkey

If you got caught by a raw sitdown stun you deserve to eat that combo because you fucked up. If you are allowing your opponent to throw you to the ceiling you deserve that because you didn't take the appropriate actions to stop him from doing it. People do not complain about no force techs in VF because in VF being knocked down puts you in a VERY BAD situation and wakeup kicks aren't the smartest thing to do in that game. In DOA getting knocked down is the best feeling in the world to me because I'm like "Finally! This dudes offense is over now I have a chance to turn things around." when it shouldn't be that way. VF also has access to frame advantage on BLOCK and HIT. You don't even need to guard break somebody to get frame advantage in that game all you have to do is jab and you are at +2. Since DOA has no frame advantage and the ground game in 5 is garbage people need force techs in order to avoid the bullshit and get some much needed frame advantage.


Brute

Well said sir we are on the same page.

 

[NinjaMonkey]

NinjaMonkey

If you got caught by a raw sitdown stun you deserve to eat that combo because you fucked up. If you are allowing your opponent to throw you to the ceiling you deserve that because you didn't take the appropriate actions to stop him from doing it. People do not complain about no force techs in VF because in VF being knocked down puts you in a VERY BAD situation and wakeup kicks aren't the smartest thing to do in that game. In DOA getting knocked down is the best feeling in the world to me because I'm like "Finally! This dudes offense is over now I have a chance to turn things around." when it shouldn't be that way. VF also has access to frame advantage on BLOCK and HIT. You don't even need to guard break somebody to get frame advantage in that game all you have to do is jab and you are at +2. Since DOA has no frame advantage and the ground game in 5 is garbage people need force techs in order to avoid the bullshit and get some much needed frame advantage.

getting hit by a SDS isn't that unlikly as you make it sound think of hayates SS SDS or gen fus 3pp on counter hit or hayabusas qcb+p and so on. And regarding a throw against a ceiling, i think that 70% dmg out of an unbreakable i12 hi counter throw with unshakeable SDSs is abit too much. Regarding the FT thing, read the 2nd last sentens in my first post. I want to not only nerf the FT i also want to nerf the wake up kicks and i want the ground hit to do more dmg so it would be just like in VF. on a side node the +2 after a blocked jab in VF isnt that awesome of an offensive tool as you make it sound, the mix up after that can be easily fuzzy guarded its when you put your opponent or he puts himself into nitaku when things get interresting in VF (offencive wise)

 

[Brute]

getting hit by a SDS isn't that unlikly as you make it sound thing of hayates SS SDS or gen fus 3pp on counter hit or hayabusas qcb+p and so on.

214P with Ryu is super-telegraphed and 27 frames. So yeah, if you get hit by it you deserved to eat up some hefty damage, imo.

 

[David Gregg]

Don't underestimate your ability to defend against wake up kicks. I don't understand why so many opponents essentially stand there as I low kick them. I've practiced countering/blocking/attacking wake up kicks many times and you really catch the other player off guard when they realize they are a bad idea to use against you.

 

[NinjaMonkey]

214P with Ryu is super-telegraphed and 27 frames. So yeah, if you get hit by it you deserved to eat up some hefty damage, imo.

You can crush low wake up kicks really easy with it and i would get around 164dmg out of it if the SE druing SDSs would be removed. qcb+p is really slow yeah but there are situations you can hit the opponent even with that slow move. i just wanted to make a few examples of different SDSs like SDSs that low crush ^^

 

[Brute]

qcb+p is really slow yeah but there are situations you can hit the opponent even with that slow move.

Yeah. there are situations but that's the idea. Your opponent is supposed to try and avoid those situations because they aren't the easiest to set-up.

 

[NinjaMonkey]

^ But crushing low wake up Kicks is a really common situation. Think that every time you make a low wake up kick you risk taking around 164dmg

 

[Berzerk!]

I disagree with the removing SE druing SDSs thing at least if they stay the same like they are now. What happens when i counter hit my opponent with a SDS? It would lead into a huge combo with 2-3 SDSs and a high laucher.

Too much wall of text to reply to the whole thing, but here, there is a logical error and you need to remember how DOA5 works.

If you counterhit someone raw with a SDS - and good luck landing it, and then hit confirming into anything, since you don't have THAT much time, Stagger Escape or not - you can't just do another SDS.

The system has a built in threshhold that will cause a knockdown with certain moves being repeated.

So if you SDS, you have to either go straight into a launcher (most characters launchers are high, so this WON'T work), or follow up with a normal - once done, they can counter again on the required follow up.

So there is still ALWAYS a chance to counter hold.

Fixing sit down stuns will add confidence and surity into the system, but it won't remove the stun game, you'll still have 2-3 chances or more.

The other important thing is they can make the window for a CB follow up to any sit down guaranteed, but tight, making it a more skillful, hitconfirm based action.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Again, I disagree with the scenarios you put and especially with the initial risk.

Lets say the favorable starter (sit down) was done as a punishment to a whiffed attack, or as an OH (which may end up being a HC in most cases giving crazy reward), or a Hold that puts you in stun, or a throw that puts you in a stun, or a sabaki or parry ?? That eliminates the first guess. and you are being rewarded for this by hitting them or throwing them or whatever.

That type of starter most of the time will grant you a guaranteed follow up.

here's the dilema here:

Sitdown > sitdown > stun > CB is a scenario that currently happens with the system we have. (1 guess) ... (2 by your standard)

in the 1.03 glitch, we had scenarios that turned brain dead...
sitdown > sitdown > sitdown > CB ... no matter how you look at it .. with this game's logic that is stupid and should not be in the game.

Leifang:
From Sabaki literally all you need is 1 hit and you're in threshold. Sabaki> stun> CB (2 guesses)
Take her OH from unshu, OH> Faint> Stun> CB (1 guess since the faint is guaranteed)

Kokoro:
66P+K Faint> Stun> CB ... 1 guess
Command throw > stun > CB 2 guesses (used to be just 1 pre patch)

there are also setups that can be done from turn around or limbo that grant CB reward from 1 or 2 guesses ...Tina (from turn around KK or BT H+K)
from Limbo: christie and hayabusa .. (its tough but it works)

not to mention that there are cases that can in fact CB from 2 hits only ... Brad .. (2 guesses (3 for you) but its 2 hits into CB nevertheless)

Shimbori already mentioned that the CB option is there but it is not the "Go to" for every character. otherwise the characters might as well have the same setups but with different animations and you lose all the individuality you had. Other characters can get their damage by other means.

Not to mention:
- guaranteed damage from a single guess is there: Normal hit launchers (on CH its higher)
- double guess is there: Stun > Launch
Some times its more sometimes its less...
Sitdown > launcher
sitdown> sitdown > launcher ... guaranteed scenario with as little risk as a normal hit launcher
- Limbo > launcher
BT > STUN > launcher (inescapable .. hello Kasumi)

almost every throw that puts you in BT gives a guaranteed something...

all the factors that you want are in fact already in the game.

this is also not including the environmental damage which people still to this day do not utilize fully to grant you guaranteed follow ups ..

close range sitdown from a breakable object GUARANTEES power blow with ANY character.
Ceiling stun from throw guarantees power blow as well.

that Launch everyone seems to be taking lightly activates whatever DangerZone it slams into for more guaranteed damage.

There's also a sense to SE in the game which I forgot to mention ..
- any stun that puts you back on your feet can be SEed (regular, sitdowns, slips, trips and lifts)
- any stun that drops you to the ground CANNOT ( crumple, faint, limbo, CB... and obviously the newly introduced Flop.. (not newly but more utilized))
removing SE from Sit down eliminates this logic.

CB should not be the end result for every time you get a correct hit in. and I am afraid that this will be the case if they keep sit downs long and inescapable..... otherwise make them inescapable but shorter so a follow up is guaranteed but not another back to back sit down or a CB .. but that puts us back where we started and we lose the plot once again, so I do not recommend this.

Right now we have guaranteed follow up from sitdowns which in most cases is a guaranteed launcher for a guaranteed juggle. we also have the gamble for playing the stun game by landing an extra stun in or a more favorable (higher) slower launcher at the risk of being SEed and Held or blocked and whiff punished.

Sit downs are fine as they are ... they just need a tweak for some characters to actually give them something ... namely eliot and hitomi..

then theres characters that dont even rely on sitdowns so much and we can all agree that they're pretty beastly ... (ayane for one) ...

SE in sit downs is not the issue, nor is it even a problem.

The game can still be more favorable to what we all want without changing the properties of the current stun system. From what I am hearing, we ARE in fact getting more scenarios like this, contrary to what people seem to believe that we are taking a step back into DOA4 territory... I can't say much, but you guys will just have to wait and see. (I believe this is also the main reason for the HP tweak..).

So you guys know where Shimbori's coming from. He actually mentioned that he likes a fast paced aggressive game. So, hopefully that's what we should expect.

Also, the game is actually done ... so I would advise we defer this discussion till we get our hands on the game and try it for ourselves. Let the game mature in our hands, then come up with suggestions. Not just jump on the rage wagon before even giving the game a chance.

Take VirtuaPai as an example, right now after sitting with the game and understanding what it has to offer, his point of view has changed drastically and is actually in favor of the games system.

 

[Tenryuga]

getting hit by a SDS isn't that unlikly as you make it sound think of hayates SS SDS or gen fus 3pp on counter hit or hayabusas qcb+p and so on. And regarding a throw against a ceiling, i think that 70% dmg out of an unbreakable i12 hi counter throw with unshakeable SDSs is abit too much. Regarding the FT thing, read the 2nd last sentens in my first post. I want to not only nerf the FT i also want to nerf the wake up kicks and i want the ground hit to do more dmg so it would be just like in VF. on a side node the +2 after a blocked jab in VF isnt that awesome of an offensive tool as you make it sound, the mix up after that can be easily fuzzy guarded its when you put your opponent or he puts himself into nitaku when things get interresting in VF (offencive wise)

How likely it is for someone to get caught by a SDS isn't the point. Hayate's SS SDS is unsafe on block. Keep him in check with tracking moves and throws or bait it out and make him think twice about doing a SS P. Genfu's 3PP is holdable. As punishment for not only getting hit by 3P but also not making the right read you will either take the sitdown stun, launcher, or hi counter throw. Look at that you got HIT and you already have a chance to fix your mistake. Brute already replied to you about Hayabusa's sitdown stun.

I don't care about the value of what +2 nets me in VF. The point is that I am at ADVANTAGE and the next move is MINE to make. Meaning you are forced to perform the correct defensive maneuver if you do not wish to take damage.

This sense of ADVANTAGE only exists in two instances in DOA. One is when a player stuns his opponent, performs a force tech or uses a guard break with an sufficient amount of plus frames. The other is when the player is using a what do you know? VF character. And even then the attacker still has to worry about the defensive hold.

In order to make a game competitive it must have situations in which failure to perform the right actions results in the appropriate penalty. It must have situations where risks are compensated for by the appropriate level of reward. It must have situations in which the player with bad habits and a lack of skill gets taken advantage of with no safety net. The same goes for good players who make mistakes. If a game lacks situations like those all it does is promote reckless nonsensical play like you see in DOA online.

This is why force techs are important in DOA. They don't make rush down easy because I still have to guess in order to avoid getting held or Hi counter blown for trying to throw you. With how unsafe on block moves are in this game real rushdown is only somewhat possible in the neutral game. Force techs give the green light for true rush down since it is clear who has the ADVANTAGE. You press a button? Unless I decided to throw, you get counter blown. You sidestep? I have tracking moves and strings to deal with that. If you are going to nerf force techs you need to give the cast access to more frame advantage outside of moderate - slow speed lows. Otherwise the game becomes even more of a guessing game than it already is.

This is why sitdown stuns and guaranteed damage situations are important in DOA. You failed to make the correct read or appropriate actions to stop them so now you will take your punishment. Damage in these situations should be appropriate to teach you a lesson and make you never want to be in that situation again. And if you are in it again it should motivate you to actually make the correct decision that time.

Reading your posts it makes it sound like you want to have some form of leeway when your opponent is attempting to capitalize on your mistakes. That doesn't make for a very competitive game IMO. For lack of a better term that's what most people would call "Scrub-Friendly." I personally think 2-3 guesses is too many chances. The threshold should allow for 1-2 guesses at most IMO unless there are going to be a substancial amount of NC's snd better launch height.

 

[StrikerSashi]

^ But crushing low wake up Kicks is a really common situation. Think that every time you make a low wake up kick you risk taking around 164dmg

If I use a low wake up kick against someone who has that sort of punish, without some how training the other guy to not expect it, I deserve to lose instantly. Wake up kicks SHOULD be a risk. A lot of things should be risks. When you get the opponent to make a bad choice, you should be rewarded.