6++ Gameplay Overhaul

[Rev_an]

I think it's important to understand the mission of this mod. What is the purpose of DOA6++ and why has it been developed to this end? So here I provide you with the mission statement from the original post:


Now we can abstract from the changes implemented what Revan considers to be a better DOA6: A game completely devoid of what makes DOA6 unique in the first place. If you don't like how DOA6 plays at its core, then removing the meter will not solve your unfulfilled fantasies. If you don't like the meter, then you are reducing the game to a shallower product.

In that case, maybe DOA was shallow all along.



Here he even acknowledges that his own mod will not elevate this new form of DOA6 to be one of the best games in the series. So why are we even bothering with this if he thinks the other games will still be better products after this mod is finalized?

It seems Revan and his crew want to play a completely other game in the series, so they reject DOA6 and substitute their own mutation in the pursuit of experiencing the same game over and over again. The people who make up this part of the DOA community are against the series evolving or progressing in any way, so why should they be in charge of its future if all they desire is the past? All I see is people who want to play 2U or 5LR for the remainder of their lives. So why don't you go freaking play those games instead of perverting an experience others might enjoy?

This community's incessant bitching and, to quote Revan, scrub mentality for the last 3 years over a game that tried something new instead of the same stale formula is absurd and would be absolutely hilarious if I were detached from the franchise. If "better" is repeating what was already done in 2000, then maybe you should stay in 2000 and stop screwing with 2019's game.

i would argue that the core of doa 6 is the core of doa, the triangle system.

meter isn't core, it was tacked on. look at breakblows and then look at CE in calibur. i don't like their mechanic either but it's integrated way better into that game and the supers are unique per character unlike breakblow which is always the same frames and damage and only varies by mid p or mid k.

we can improve on doa 6 without thinking we're making a professional quality $60 game. the reason you'd play our thing instead of an old game is that we still have the steam netplay features.

if you think the core gameplay of the series is stale or barebones or whatever then this mod is not and will not be for you, please go make DOA6 super with EX moves and shit i'd love to see what that's like.

 

[Rob]

Yeah I'd love to see what a wacky, zany, outlandish DOA6 would look like as well. It would probably be a lot more fun and interesting than this half-baked attempt at making it "mOrE cOmpEtiTivE". You've certainly made the game more boring, so congratulations.

This game is dead competitively. There are no big events anymore where real money is to be made and there never will be.

It's hilarious how most DOA fans are incredibly insecure that the FGC treats DOA like a skilless titty fighter, so they are desperate for it to be "more competitive" and "elite". The thing is DOA is more skillful than most give it credit for, but this game series has also never been trying to be a competitive fighter except with that campaign during 5's lifetime where they also introduced the beach paradise lmao.

It also doesn't help when you have manchildren in the community as the biggest names who just endlessly bitch about the game like EmeryReigns. Even when DOA6 was being improved, he was still bitching.

EmeryReigns is like having LTG being the face of your community lmao.

 

[Gill Hustle]

You are missing my point. Pretend that the new BT teleport doesn't exist, Phase 4 and many other characters are a huge problem without break hold since it replaced the need for older mechanics like stagger escape. In other words, the new move doesn't change much.

You missed mine but I'll just go with not wording correctly.

I'm talking about removing Break Hold among others making her pressure more oppressive to slower characters.

So lemme ask did YOU download and test the mod?

 

[Jean Massue]

Latest Build: Public Beta 2022.10.29

Patchnotes: https://pastebin.com/8hQcDeed

Alex's moveset swapper thread which enables this project to exist.

---------------------------------------------------

DOA 6++ is a beta. If there's a Tenfu P+K situation it'll probably be addressed if the complaints aren't rooted in scrub mentality.

Further refinements to colliders are planned, it's just slow work and the mod is in a state where it would substantially benefit from player feedback. Some reset situations, stun routes, or juggles might be different, hit the lab and do something different.


I'm trying to make a better game than DOA 6, not a perfect game, not even the best DOA. If you think one of the other games is better... they should be!

Team Ninja are professionals and I'm some guy in a bedroom. But those games aren't on PC, or don't have netplay lobbies on PC (or at all), or have other technical issues, complicated setups, etc. DOA 6 for all the flaws at least has lobbies and all the Steam functions. Online training mode doesn't exist but remote play does etc.

That said, they are were working within the constraints of a for-profit publicly traded corporation which influences some of the decisions and compromises they have to make. Compromises like releasing the game in a certain fiscal year, not creating stage throw animations, cutting tag, and adding flashy casual appeal mechanics like fatal rush and super moves or crutches like break hold and break hold.

We have the freedom to make decisions that are optimized toward good gameplay rather than casual sales and an unlimited timescale. While we can't add rollback, stages, characters or animations, nor change the pipeline to change e.g. Raidou's movement speed (yet?) but we can tweak a bunch of stuff for balance and as of public beta there are examples of most of that capability.
---------------------------------------------------

On meter:

Tekken 7. Soul Calibur 6. Dead or Alive 6... All three major 3D games have meter mechanics now *and the implementation of all of them sucks*. Team Ninja, Project Soul, and Harada — again, teams of professionals with years of experience — did not improve their respective game series by the inclusion of these mechanics. Soul Calibur 6 is worse than SC 2. DOA 6 is worse than most previous games. I'm not a tekken player but for all the complaints about rage arts etc, I assume there's a better one of those.

My head is big enough trying to do this project in the first place, I'm not going to also claim to be able to solve a problem that those folks set up for themselves and didn't get right. If you think you can solve that feel free to try, though I recommend learning from others' mistakes and to not waste your time.

Dead or Alive didn't have meter mechanics before 2019 and didn't have supers before 2012, we have examples of several DOA games working and being good without those things, and DOA has enough going on with stage hazards, the triangle system, free step dodge, and critical holds. Removing meter entirely is the safest choice because we know the core systems work wonderfully without it.


Special thanks to AlexXsWx, Gultigagar, Ponton, UsagiZ, Wazaaaaa and anyone else who contributed to our knowledge of how all this stuff works.

Thanks to my testers and anybody who got hype in public.

I dont't know where to report problems with the mod so I'll just write it here. Great job so far. Really liking it. But Lei Fang's 3P+K, 3K(P+K) aren't working at all. I can't even hit certain characters at point blank range with 3P+K. I like Lei-Fang but that's kinda of a hassle. Just wanted to report the problem. Besides that I'm really enjoying it hehehe.

 

[Rikuto]

This is kinda right but you're also knowingly ignoring the many situations where you can't do that. It only works if the opponent FC's or does an incredibly laggy single hit linear attack.

Doing the full SSA to negate the string pressure of Eliot, Kokoro, Marie, etc. is obviously far more guaranteed and safer to do in most circumstances.

No no no, you do it at the END of your opponents string, provided the attack does not track. This is what makes safe strings unsafe. But it's the same timing as you would have in DOA 5 if you didn't use an attack out of step, or if you delayed the attack until the last moment to avoid tracking.

It's just that doing a meter'd SSA requires no timing, and doing a real sidestep does. DOA players are admittedly pretty lazy kek

 

[Rob]

No no no, you do it at the END of your opponents string, provided the attack does not track. This is what makes safe strings unsafe. But it's the same timing as you would have in DOA 5 if you didn't use an attack out of step, or if you delayed the attack until the last moment to avoid tracking.

It's just that doing a meter'd SSA requires no timing, and doing a real sidestep does. DOA players are admittedly pretty lazy kek

Lol dude literally no one who knows the Eliot MU lets you just get to the end of your string. You have to condition people for that lmao.

 

[Rikuto]

Yea well Eliot is broken bitch tbh. His strings don't end and rules don't apply to him.

 

[rjqnraos19]

(me raidou)

look how the AI much harder and challenging now with DOA6++ (or maybe I suck)

and the ai no longer spamming break hold

the break system really ruined the single player. no fun, no challenge at all

I heard DOA6++ doesn't change AI but it's better than vanilla DOA6

 

[Rev_an]

I dont't know where to report problems with the mod so I'll just write it here. Great job so far. Really liking it. But Lei Fang's 3P+K, 3K(P+K) aren't working at all. I can't even hit certain characters at point blank range with 3P+K. I like Lei-Fang but that's kinda of a hassle. Just wanted to report the problem. Besides that I'm really enjoying it hehehe.

this thread is fine. thanks for the report.

i think there's an issue with how all the colliders are interacting that's making shoulder checks like that have issues. should be a fix for diego lei fang and honoka on that when i update.

 

[deathofaninja]

More DOA6 ++ labbing and matches from Emery

 

[Uberprinny]

That quick jab at Matt on the patch notes was hylarious. So is there gonna be more updates with this mod. The SSA on hit fly with nyotengu is what I dont understand but I ll try to experiment with it. The best part of this mod is the fucking meter is removed and maybe we can rely on SS to avoid certain attacks. Its sad to see break blow and FR go. Welp back to the drawing board on doing combos again.

Question is, is there a critical stun or fatal stun? What are the effects if 1 player oniine has the mod and the other player doesnt have the mod installed? Will it affect the gameplay experience online? Technically the mod is 3rd party-ish. Will it break the steam rules if I install it?

 

[Rev_an]

That quick jab at Matt on the patch notes was hylarious. So is there gonna be more updates with this mod. The SSA on hit fly with nyotengu is what I dont understand but I ll try to experiment with it. The best part of this mod is the fucking meter is removed and maybe we can rely on SS to avoid certain attacks. Its sad to see break blow and FR go. Welp back to the drawing board on doing combos again.

Question is, is there a critical stun or fatal stun? What are the effects if 1 player oniine has the mod and the other player doesnt have the mod installed? Will it affect the gameplay experience online? Technically the mod is 3rd party-ish. Will it break the steam rules if I install it?

haha yeah that was a suggestion from him and it's forcing people to look for anti-airs we didn't need before. hopefully it's fair enough to leave in but if not it's his fault.

gonna be updates to it, already got a pretty good list of adjustments i need to make. gonna give y'all some more time to find things though. I was doing builds up to twice a week during early development and i don't think we could coordinate everybody downloading hotfixes at that pace.

all the sidestep cancels (and tengu's ssa on-hit) are expanding on something ayane and lisa had in doa 5, sidestep p+k -> backturned which was a really niche tool. Borne has some ssa into the wall -> fly -> juggle tech already don't know if he's shared it anywhere yet other than a 2am stream.

------------
fatal stuns are still in the game so like Hiten no mai 2p and so on are a guaranteed hit, probably gonna want to launch them but you do you.

no critical burst yet, but i have some half-baked ideas about rewarding you for filling the stun threshold perfectly (26/26 on normal etc) so there might be something there eventually but hacking together that mechanic will be complicated and hard.

if you netplay with a non-mod player it'll crash or desync the session, so we're using private lobbies for the most part. maybe some day i'll be brave enough to write "6++ modded lobby" in the title for an open one.

no problem with steam rules. and like i implied before, you can netplay with all the changes as long as both players have exactly the same mod version, so there's gonna be some "fun" happening when i push an update.

 

[GarryJaune]

Man you did a great job and I appreciate thatyour MOD makes the game much more fun to play

and I think ground invincibility frames should be further ruduced,maybe going back to DOA5 vanilla?

anyways thank you man,and hope you can keep upgrating the MOD

 

[GarryJaune]

I've asked my regular DOA6 buddies if they want to play DOA6++ games and they all have told me "they don't want to play a worse version of 6."

ouch! thats hurt man

at least show some respect to the MOD dev my friend

I mean,actually I partly agree with you，yeah the MOD basically doing a subtraction job about DOA6 mechanics,and DOA6 is boring enough.

but imo it's good for a more competitive game.

whats more,Rev_an really did a great job on balancing(yeah he does need more work to do for sure,like that Raijin shit lmao),much better than team ninja did

 

[Rob]

ouch! thats hurt man

at least show some respect to the MOD dev my friend

Why should I? He has earned none.

If this was Gultigargar working on this mod I'd be hugely supportive of it and be his biggest advocate.

But when this scrub revan does shit like removing the relaunch for Kasumi and Phase 4 and leaves Ayane as is, I know he has no fucking idea what he is doing. And removing all bounds at the wall. He's crippled so many characters. Good luck doing any damage with Marie Rose. These changes have actually TAKEN stuff from her. And revan won't buff her because he hates lolis. See how biased this shit is? It's hilarious. The hundreds of games of One Punch Loli bodying his Ayane have scarred him.

And also, fatal stuns unfiltered like this is a terrible idea. There's no stagger escape so you kinda need break holds back, as much as everyone hates them. I don't mind unholdable stuns, but these are a death sentence when you can chain them and you literally with no way out. One wrong guess and you’re eating some good damage, especially now since he made a lot of the stuns force crouch. You get that max launch height plus you can get reset into oki. You get buttfucked.

There's still no logical reason to remove meter, only that "it sucks". But why? Why does it suck? What can you do to make it better? How do you know the game even works well without meter (ps: it totally does not work well)

 

[Moruma]

Why should I? He has earned none.

If this was Gultigargar working on this mod I'd be hugely supportive of it and be his biggest advocate.

But when this scrub revan does shit like removing the relaunch for Kasumi and Phase 4 and leaves Ayane as is, I know he has no fucking idea what he is doing. And removing all bounds at the wall. He's crippled so many characters. Good luck doing any damage with Marie Rose. And revan won't buff her because he hates lolis. See how biased this shit is? It's hilarious.

And also, fatal stuns unfiltered like this is a terrible idea. There's no stagger escape so you kinda need break holds back, as much as everyone hates them. I don't mind unholdable stuns, but these are a death sentence when you can chain them and you literally with no way out. One wrong guess and you’re eating some good damage, especially now since he made a lot of the stuns force crouch. You get that max launch height plus you can get reset into oki. You get buttfucked.

There's still no logical reason to remove meter, only that "it sucks". But why? Why does it suck? What can you do to make it better? How do you know the game even works well without meter (ps: it totally does not work well)

My biggest problem is the fact that Rev wants this to be played by the community but doesn't take feedback well. I mean even Emery was thinking that some of this SS p+k stance stuff was kinda odd for some characters and Rev immediately said "it's fine" and shut him down. He didn't even need to think about it. Emery has been playing the game for a long time so there are some things that he will know from actually playing DOA all these years. As I said, Emery mentioned being in support because it is something new to play that the community can engage in.

I don't want some random user trying to play God if this is supposed to be a community-driven mod. Community mods are now seen in a positive light because of projects like Project M and SFV Mysterious Mod but those teams actually work hard and engage actively with the community to ensure a good result. As shown in this thread, whenever Rev thinks he is under attack, he literally fights back and ignores it. He is not a developer just because he was taught how to modify existing code.

Rev supposedly trusted one Kasumi player for a balance change that clearly wasn't a good one because it was not well received. Once again, whatever changes he makes, we just gotta deal with it and keep our mouths shut and not download it when, unfortunately, this is the only one that the community is jumping on to play the game again.

If Rev changes the name of the mod from DOA6++ to something else, I'll actually stop complaining and leave it alone. This mod should not be called DOA6+ or DOA6++. All the '"++" mods actually add to the game. This mod does NOT necessarily add anything new to the game, it tweaks or completely removes things.

 

[crapoZK]

Quick critiques:

SSA: Reverting it back to the meterless 6 Vanilla SS is a lil bit problematic due to the new ground game we've got going. From the games I've been seeing most people aren't ready to get hit by the SSA, which in turn means they're not teching in time because they haven't processed the hit connection yet - it's essentially a free FT if the enemy isn't pressuring with the constant idea in their minds that they may get knocked on their ass at any given moment.

The point is that it's still spammable.

I'm glad that the SSA actually works, but it probably isn't beneficial that the SSA knocks down so close to the player to get said offense - I would vouch for an hit effect or a soft stun that keeps the enemy on their feet from this move to keep things neutral / turn switch. I don't know well how the SSA attack animations would look with this, but I think this may help with the current state of it.

In my opinion SSA should be a light turn swapper and not a heavy one, ya feel me?

Keep it -15 and grabbable though. Good shit for not changing that.

Of course will go through every character and see how consistent this notion is but it's a first observation.

At the same time it does no damage so it's nothing to really cry about - just a lil concern is all.

SS P+Ks: They kinda don't make sense and don't really have any point being in here for character stances universally. I think Bayman only should have this as a unique character trait. Marie Rose's roll goes through way too much shit / sideswaps and the rest don't really have any point. Zack doesn't need Fake Roll, Zack Beam, Ducking or Sway out of SS, but SS Slide Roll works. I would never use this unless I want an impressive flash read but what's the point if I can just SSA, you feel? Jann lee's Dragon Stance out of SS is pointless since he's not really getting anything better than SSA out of that stance, same with Leifang doing Unshu, or Kokoro doing Heichu. Maybe we should be putting DOA5 SSAs back in instead of this?

I like the double sidesteps (SS > Tank Roll on Bayman, SS > Rondo on Rachel, SS > Slide Roll on Zack) as those make sense to do, but as far as doing Dragon Stance after stepping? What's the point in that?

(Giving Helena BKO after SS is wild also lmao)

Diego: 1K stunning on NH is wild especially with the 1KK, and 1KKP string variants. Give it stun on CH only please. A low combo starter is not it.

All I have for today though. Going through more content / labbing more 6++ so that I can offer some more insight

 

[Moruma]

Quick critiques:

SSA: Reverting it back to the meterless 6 Vanilla SS is a lil bit problematic due to the new ground game we've got going. From the games I've been seeing most people aren't ready to get hit by the SSA, which in turn means they're not teching in time because they haven't processed the hit connection yet - it's essentially a free FT if the enemy isn't pressuring with the constant idea in their minds that they may get knocked on their ass at any given moment.

The point is that it's still spammable.

I'm glad that the SSA actually works, but it probably isn't beneficial that the SSA knocks down so close to the player to get said offense - I would vouch for an hit effect or a soft stun that keeps the enemy on their feet from this move to keep things neutral / turn switch. I don't know well how the SSA attack animations would look with this, but I think this may help with the current state of it.

In my opinion SSA should be a light turn swapper and not a heavy one, ya feel me?

Keep it -15 and grabbable though. Good shit for not changing that.

Of course will go through every character and see how consistent this notion is but it's a first observation.

SS P+Ks: They kinda don't make sense and don't really have any point being in here for character stances universally. I think Bayman only should have this as a unique character trait. Marie Rose's roll goes through way too much shit / sideswaps and the rest don't really have any point. Zack doesn't need Funky Roll, Zack Beam or Sway out of SS, but SS Ducking works. I would never use this unless I want an impressive flash read but what's the point if I can just SSA, you feel? Maybe we should be putting DOA5 SSAs back in instead of this?

Diego: 1K stunning on NH is wild especially with the 1KK, and 1KKP string variants. Give it stun on CH only please. A low combo starter is not it.

All I have for today though. Going through more content / labbing more 6++ so that I can offer some more insight

Most of these are all things that were seen a mile away not only by me. I'm honestly sorry that had to write all this cause he might not even care. I hope he reads it though.

 

[crapoZK]

(me raidou)

look how the AI much harder and challenging now with DOA6++ (or maybe I suck)

and the ai no longer spamming break hold

the break system really ruined the single player. no fun, no challenge at all

I heard DOA6++ doesn't change AI but it's better than vanilla DOA6

CPU can Fatal Rush and it's not annoying (See: 1:00). Might as well bring it back in I can't lie.

 

[Full Cup Bounce]

please go make DOA6 super with EX moves and shit i'd love to see what that's like.

What? A game that's actually fun? This entire mod is based on the premise of making a more competitive experience for a game that is already at the end of its competitive lifespan. Imagine, if you will, a gaming community that focused on having fun and making cool stuff rather than sitting in their pajamas at 4PM and turning a decent game into a spreadsheet simulator.

Oh wait, you literally have an Excel spreadsheet for which Ayane strings to use in each particular situation. How many tournaments have you won with your index cards?