Do you want to see more diversity in DoA's character designs?

[jusD]

Then play another franchise where you don't have to worry about that sort of thing as much. Or, better yet? Make your own video game franchise and see how well it does with your ideas in mind. You might generate some good sales and a nice fanbase. Or, you may not.
As I said before, if TN/KT's approach towards representation angers you that much and if this is all that you're really worried about for a game (not anything else), then why bother playing DOA?

First: If you don't like this thread or my arguments maybe you should just leave or create your own thread... hope you agree that this kind or argument (if you don't like it don't watch/play/read AND if you have complaint make a better game/movie/thread) is lazy and not really productive. I can like the games but stil have some complaints or suggestions.

Second: Truthfully I don't care that much about diversity then it comes to nationality/ethnicity and how those things are represented or how the game roster must represent every ethnicity otherwise creators are rasist/fascist. For me the priority would be:

1) Interesting martial arts and fighting style, if those are based on real one then at least try to make them resemble those. Having at least basic movements from said art and possibly uniform/gi is a plus because it both make it easier to recognize the style and give the feeling of authenticity as well as learning something new about some martial art that I am not familiar with. If every sumo characters in games would use standard judo gi and then I later found out that this is not what is used in real life, that would make me disappointed. In a hypothetical Japanese only fighting game, there are stil enough martial arts in the country to make them all be different and interesting.

And while I would rage about realistic game where young and small aikido or tai chi girls could beat anybody from actual competitive sports in their own weight class, not even mentioning bantan weight vs super heavy weight, I have no problem with the in martial fantasy settings and games. That is the beauty of kung fu movies and fighting games: yellow bambo and chiballs exist and all styles could work.

2) Interesting character design where they fell different. As I said, even if some hypothetical fighting game only have Japanese fighters but they all look and feel different while stil being Japanese, I would have zero complains about diversity because that would be diverse enough for me.

3) Interesting stages. Let's continue with that hypothetical game, if you give me stages from all over the Japan from Hokkaido to Okinawa I would once again nothing to complain about. Just make it different and interesting.

And, the Mortal Kombat mainline games has been a 2D fighting game since its conception. The only exceptions lie in the 3D era (Deadly Alliance, Deception, Armageddon, and even vs DC Universe).

I mentioned MK as the exempel of the only 2d fighting game I played enough to have some real opinion on, which is way I don't really know why GG or BB or any other 2d fighter has characters which their audience is excited about. Just that, I didn't try to make it sound like MK is a 2d anime fighter or that there didn't exist any 3d MK games.

And, to speak more about the fanservice, I don't know what you mean by "childish."
You mean "slapstick?" Or, played for "comedic" value in context of its own franchise or the anime category? Because, if that's the case, all of those factors are *still* in MANY 80s/90s anime series, in the very same ones I mentioned and even those that weren't even meant to have anything to do with the ecchi/fanservice genre.

By childish I mostly mean the feeling there most anime are having this shonen type of tropes with clumsy females, panty shots, nose blead of mere mention of women, comedic bumping into each other when either the female is naked or they fall suggestively on top of each other. So yes, probably slapstick and some ecchi. It did exist in older anime but much less in seinen and at least I feel that it was not as prominent in most of shonens. Could be just nostalgia where I just forgot about those scenes and have a more rose tinted version of how anime used to be.

View attachment 32141
Country of Origin: USA
Simple question. Which one looks American and why?

Since USA is a giant, multiethnic country where you have people from almost all over the world then all of them "look" American and it is believable. And almost all of the rest of the cast could be from America, or are suggesting that there are no descendant of Japanese, Russian, English, German or Swedish in America?

On the other hand, would you claim that all of those people are from Iceland or Russia because there probably are or were some people with darker skin in those countries and Bass with Tina could be Boris and Tanja or Bassmundur with Tinadottir? It is possible but is it plausible or believable?

lol why aren't you answering my other question? Here is what you said,

"Is Lisa really African-American and not Latin-American? Does Hitomi look German or Marie Rose look Swedish or Bayman Russian? Not to me they don't".

What do they need to look the part?

Hitomi is Japanese-German and the faces of both Bayman and Marie could possibly be found in those countries but they don't exactly feel Scandinavian or Slavic. Lisa could be whatever I just don't see why someone who could very plausibly be dark skinned Latin American from actual country in that region needs to be American.

And besides hilarity of Swedish Marie using Systema, she could as well have "self-taught" ninjutsu and it would feel just as authentic. Maybe jujutsu kai (or any variation there of) or glima just don't fit when most other characters can feel that style but why not give Systema to the Finnish girl? A fine bullshido... ehum, sorry I meant fine martial art in the category of Reality Based Self Defense with focus on effective and efficient fighting is very fitting for a young genius who wouldn't really spend their life and most of their time on fighting and there are more Systema clubs in Finland because of their direct neighbors. Sure, silat or modern combination of silat/escrima + wing chun + science! is also very popular as RBSD (just like krav maga and other Military/Police based styles) but that just gives me the same feeling as if a Japanese fighter wanted to learn striking art and went with Savate instead of Kyoukushin, Muay Thai or just regular kick boxing. It works if there is a reason (loves France, had trainer who was a hidden master tireur or just really like to kick with shoes on) but otherwise... why?

View attachment 32143
Simple question, do all Russians look like this? No one is bigger? No one is smaller? No one has hair with a different color?

Yap, all Russian look either like her and are named Tatjana or look like Fedor Emelianenko and are called Boris (Fedor just don't know it yet, such unrussian behaviour) .

Are you arguing in good faith and will here? Of course people look different but there is something Slavic/Russian/East European in her looks. Just like most people could guess were Fedor is from even if there probably are guys in UK or USA how look the same. Is your argument really that you don't believe that people from different nations with native ethnicity have specific, distinct looks? I don't think you do but it's getting harder to understand what your problem is with people looking more like people from where they are supposedly from instead of just generic homo sapience.

Show me where I wrote that.

Sure thing:

What constitutes body diversity?

• Fat characters like Bob? Last I checked fat characters aren't popular.

While I don't like Bob as a character, is he unpopular and has been removed from Tekken and there has been no other fat characters or sumo in that game? I assumed that you actually had some stats or good reasons for what you said.

Yeah, I hope TN never implements your idea of "Diversity"

• (USA) Zack: Muay Thai (Thai)
• (Canada) Rig: Taekwondo (Korean)
• (Germany) Hitomi; Karate (Japanese)
• (Sweden) Marie: Systema (Russian)
• (Spain) Mila: MMA (mixed)
• (UK) Christie: She quan (Chinese)
• (France) Helena: Pi Gua Quan (Chinese)
• (Finland) Nico: Pencak Silat (South East Asia)

No, you would love those changes because if TN implement them then they are a part of their creative vision and we wouldn't go against that. Or maybe you would stop playing DOA, never ever complain about changes and just create your own fighting game... 'cause those are so cheap and easy to create for a one man indie.

Also interesting how both Zack and Rig are self-taught but only Zack have uniform for the style. Maybe Rig need to self-teach himself some more. And other characters had good and plausible reasons: Hitomis father is Japanese Karate master, Mila use international MMA which exist in EVERY COUNTRY OF THE WORLD and a lot of styles have either become very international (judo, tkd, karate gyms/dojos/dojangs can be found everywhere) or in case of Chinese arts a lot emigrated from the mainland after cultural revolution and could be found in better shape around the world (even if most linage could stil be found in other Asian countries). Why Helena uses Pi Gua and Christie thinks that what a real assassin needs is the art of fingering is a question but there always exist some Martial Fantasy logic in those games to some degrees, just don't turn it to 11.

EDIT:

This perfectly sums up my reactions to some characters who "fits perfectly in anime media and the game, so what are you complaining about?":

So, yeah. People want diversity in the roster. But, it's not surprising that they don't mean characters that look and act like little girls in a game that spends an inordinate amount of effort focusing on how sexy the women are and how much the boobs jiggle.

Seldom do I care about nudity and would have no problems seeing same characters in more modest games (would stil "rage" some on NiCo and Maries martial art choices) but those characters in todays DOA just gives me "Yikes y'all" reaction.

@candynarwhal equality in jiggle is a great cause to strive for. Not something I want, but probably something we all need.

 

[GreatDarkHero]

First: If you don't like this thread or my arguments maybe you should just leave or create your own thread... hope you agree that this kind or argument (if you don't like it don't watch/play/read AND if you have complaint make a better game/movie/thread) is lazy and not really productive. I can like the games but stil have some complaints or suggestions.

Except that logic doesn't apply in that scenario. I participated in this thread *because* it piqued my interests. There's no actual indication that outright state that I despise this specific subject. I'm making annotation. So you can't really make that argument. Representation is a good thing for as long as it is not with some woke agenda in mind. Or, if it is done in some cringeworthy or insultingly stereotypical bent on overt "realism" in a series like DOA.

What I will concede is that DOA6 in of itself is flawed and a rather divisive entry in the series. But, that is mostly from a competitive standpoint and a lot of questionable/contradictory decisions in their marketing.

Second: Truthfully I don't care that much about diversity then it comes to nationality/ethnicity and how those things are represented or how the game roster must represent every ethnicity otherwise creators are rasist/fascist. For me the priority would be:

1) Interesting martial arts and fighting style, if those are based on real one then at least try to make them resemble those. Having at least basic movements from said art and possibly uniform/gi is a plus because it both make it easier to recognize the style and give the feeling of authenticity as well as learning something new about some martial art that I am not familiar with. If every sumo characters in games would use standard judo gi and then I later found out that this is not what is used in real life, that would make me disappointed. In a hypothetical Japanese only fighting game, there are stil enough martial arts in the country to make them all be different and interesting.

With what I am reading, I am actually thankful that some people are not game developers.
Realism should only be used as a medium for inspiration, especially if you consider the general setting of Dead or Alive (which was never a totally realistic fighting game to begin with, if you're looking at this retroactively).

If you want to construct a game that is built specifically on realism, don't count on too many people taking it seriously for too long. There are good reasons why most people would rather invest time, effort, and resources (and even make legitimate competitions) out of games such as King of Fighters, Street Fighter or Dead or Alive than play some... UFC game for example. Or, otherwise some fighting game that is built specifically with an overly literal realism in mind. I might not speak for some people but I would *not* invest in a game like this.

And, to speak a little more about fighting styles, I actually practiced Teakwondo. But, that sure as hell does not mean I have to main Rig or even like the character, even for their fighting style (granted, I don't like or hate Rig but that is another story). As long as there are a few basic concepts in use, I don't really care how much liberties in the fantastic elements the franchise takes towards the fighting style. As long as there are some specific inspirations in use to identify that they *do* use that fighting style, it does not matter and is not that big of a deal. That's why I don't necessarily mind Rig or Juri from Street Fighter (who I *did* play at tournaments in the days of Super SFIV. And, not just because of her fighting style).

 

[human013]

There are a few twin-tailed lolis I could point to, I guess. I've long since forgotten their names. But that says something on its own. It's an archetype that's very common in anime. I'm "mad" that Marie doesn't have more that makes her stand out, but to say that I'm even mad isn't that correct. The only character I'm actually mad at is Honoka. lol

Sure... Marie is a carbon copy of a character but you just don't know who exactly right now... LMAO. Is it going to be a carbon copy like how Nico is just Rem? Or you talking about a Kasumi-Mai situation? lol

I too, can strip everything away from a character and say they don't stand out. Jann is a shirtless dude in baggy pants and makes sounds like Bruce Lee? Does not stand out at all. The design of the pants does not matter right? The same way Marie's dress design does not matter. Ayane is just the ninja archetype. Doesn't stand out at all. Zack is in his Muay thai outfit? It's just a shirtless dude in shorts we see every Muay thai practitioner wear. Nothing stands out. Now he's in a suit? A fighter in a suit. I've never seen that archetype before...

We all know that Kasumi was based on Mai and that Jann is Bruce, and Zack is Rodman, Bass is Hogan, etc. etc. But, I believe that I said going forward, we should be hoping for something not as readily comparable. Standards have indeed increased since 1998. Doing things like that isn't going to help the DOA's characters stand out, is it?

Why, if I knew of a popular character named Bruce who is rich and broody and goes around fighting criminals in a costume at night, would I create a character named Bruce who is rich and broody, but fights criminals in the morning? Or at least I wouldn't do so expecting no one to say anything about it. lol

Your standards for comparable are really skewed and makes no sense but sure. If you say so.

I have never watched Love Live but their Honoka is a fighter who mimics other people, has super powers, and is related to ninjas?
Complaining about school uniform is like complaining about characters wearing Chinese outfits. Or ninjas wearing ninja outfits. Different designs but same concept. As for the name, I really do not care. I do not know why that hurts you guys so much.

Country of origin is just one aspect among many that can set characters apart. And that can be used as a gateway to designs or attributes that we haven't gotten 1000 times before. It's a pretty simple concept. Does the country in itself mean that it will be a good character design? No. Can we still get interesting characters without taking the country into consideration? Sure. But TN looks like they need some help. It's a suggestion. A place to start.

Someone mentioned Nico's color scheme is the same as the country's flag. All is right in the world now.

I understand perfectly and that's the problem. You don't parse any nuance whatsoever and everything is a whataboutism.
"Oh, you say you want diversity, but this character is diverse in a few ways and you don't like it?!?! Oh, you complain that we got another Japanese character, but what about the Japanese character before that one that they added, HMMMMM????? Did you complain then?!?!?! I SMELL HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!! NiCO just looks reminiscent of Rem and doesn't look EXACTLY like her unless you punch her in the face! CHECK. MATE."
None of this is compelling. You're not that deep, dude. lol

I love people who like to throw out whataboutism. Issues are only an issue when it suits them and reality can be dismissed because it does not fit the narrative.

Tn: "Want body diversity? Here's Marie and Honoka." -> You guys: "There's no body diversity in DOA and everyone is the same!!"

You guys: "We don't need more Japanese characters!!" -> "But those Japanese characters are fine because X and Y" -> "Can TN stop making Japanese characters!?!?" lmao

Yeah, I'll just go with what you guys claim then. There are too many Japaneses characters in this game and too many 18yo Japanese girls. Since Marie was released in 2013 we've been getting so many clones of her that in 7 years we have a grand total of 3.

NiCO just looks reminiscent of Rem and doesn't look EXACTLY like her unless you punch her in the face! CHECK. MATE.

LMAO

I said there are reasons why Nyo and P4 didn't get as much pushback. And it's telling you chose not to respond to that.

You literally gave reasons why more Japanese characters and clones are acceptable when one big complaint here is, "Too many Japanese people". If that was really such a big deal then you wouldn't be making excuses for more Japanese characters. Oh, and let me try out you logic. Just because DOA used clones in the past does not mean they should today. Standards have risen.

What am I suppose to respond to when issues becomes non-issues whenever you want?

The big elephant in the room, why Marie, Honoka, and NiCO get more pushback than anyone else, is because they look like children. TN is trying to have their cake and eat it too where they create characters clearly meant to look super young while saying "don't worry, they're 18, so we can put them in whatever suggestive situations and outfits imaginable and no one can ban us. Gotcha!" You can get away with that maybe once, but you can't make that a habit. How many times are you gonna put in 4'10" girls with babyfaces and claim they're 18? That's a very "Japanese (otaku)"/"anime" sensibility that does kind of ruin things. lol

Same as in previous DOA games where ages were hidden and... Oh wait. If I mentioned stuff like that then it's whataboutism. Yes, DOA has never done anything like that before until Marie came in. All the girls were above age and were never in skimpy outfits. DOA never catered to the Japanese(otaku)/ anime crowd and was always targeted towards the mature and morally superior people like you. No suggestive situations and outfits existed back then. School uniforms, gym outfits, maid outfits, and things like that never existed since those things would cater to the Japanese(otaku)/ anime crowd.

And then they want to give them center stage in marketing? The backlash was very foreseeable. Some people don't like the direction that TN is taking if that's going to be what the focus is going forward. Nyo is more accepted because at least she doesn't look like a child and at least she's there for people that missed Bankotsubo. Tamaki is more accepted because at least she doesn't look like a child. But that "acceptance" doesn't exactly equate to "well-liked" or "couldn't be any better" overall.

So, yeah. People want diversity in the roster. But, it's not surprising that they don't mean characters that look and act like little girls in a game that spends an inordinate amount of effort focusing on how sexy the women are and how much the boobs jiggle.

Am I the only person here who understands that not every character needs to cater to me specifically? And that because they do not cater to me they are not bad just for existing? That's the point in adding different types of characters.

I don't care what you say about Bass because I hate wrestlers like how you guys hate certain archetypes. What's so good about a Tengu? I'd rather have a character in armor like Genra. Kokoro is just a boring Asian but I know some people like her. Who cares about Leon and him wanting to be stronger or whatever? Bayman looks better.

This is included in the meaning of diversity folks. If it only catered to you it wouldn't be diversity.

Seriously though, who else would even care about DOA besides the anime people? Adding in a serious character is not going to make people forget that this is a TnA series. DOA has always been for degenerates.

Since USA is a giant, multiethnic country where you have people from almost all over the world then all of them "look" American and it is believable. And almost all of the rest of the cast could be from America, or are suggesting that there are no descendant of Japanese, Russian, English, German or Swedish in America?

On the other hand, would you claim that all of those people are from Iceland or Russia because there probably are or were some people with darker skin in those countries and Bass with Tina could be Boris and Tanja or Bassmundur with Tinadottir? It is possible but is it plausible or believable?

Do you not see the point yet? If variations exists then who are you to say that that a character does not look X or Y?

Hitomi is Japanese-German and the faces of both Bayman and Marie could possibly be found in those countries but they don't exactly feel Scandinavian or Slavic. Lisa could be whatever I just don't see why someone who could very plausibly be dark skinned Latin American from actual country in that region needs to be American.

lol try saying things like that to people IRL and tell me their reaction. "You say you're from America but your skin color is more like those in Latin America. Why are you American?"

And besides hilarity of Swedish Marie using Systema, she could as well have "self-taught" ninjutsu and it would feel just as authentic. Maybe jujutsu kai (or any variation there of) or glima just don't fit when most other characters can feel that style but why not give Systema to the Finnish girl? A fine bullshido... ehum, sorry I meant fine martial art in the category of Reality Based Self Defense with focus on effective and efficient fighting is very fitting for a young genius who wouldn't really spend their life and most of their time on fighting and there are more Systema clubs in Finland because of their direct neighbors. Sure, silat or modern combination of silat/escrima + wing chun + science! is also very popular as RBSD (just like krav maga and other Military/Police based styles) but that just gives me the same feeling as if a Japanese fighter wanted to learn striking art and went with Savate instead of Kyoukushin, Muay Thai or just regular kick boxing. It works if there is a reason (loves France, had trainer who was a hidden master tireur or just really like to kick with shoes on) but otherwise... why?

I don't know why this is even an issue. Go make your own character then?

Yap, all Russian look either like her and are named Tatjana or look like Fedor Emelianenko and are called Boris (Fedor just don't know it yet, such unrussian behaviour) .

Are you arguing in good faith and will here? Of course people look different but there is something Slavic/Russian/East European in her looks. Just like most people could guess were Fedor is from even if there probably are guys in UK or USA how look the same. Is your argument really that you don't believe that people from different nations with native ethnicity have specific, distinct looks? I don't think you do but it's getting harder to understand what your problem is with people looking more like people from where they are supposedly from instead of just generic homo sapience.

If there is no one look for a country then characters can look however they want. It's that simple.

Since you're so fixated on this, show me a red eyed purple hair Japanese girl like Ayane. Do that for all the characters before Marie. For some reason DOA decided to only changed their motto when it comes to Marie and Nico.

While I don't like Bob as a character, is he unpopular and has been removed from Tekken and there has been no other fat characters or sumo in that game? I assumed that you actually had some stats or good reasons for what you said.

Thanks for that. It's been a while so didn't remember but I'll break it down one last time. Actually never mind. Fat characters are as popular and as fit characters. Movies, games, tv shows, ads, idols, models, etc are all populated by fat people and everyone wants fat people for those roles. Even the majority of boxers, fighters, and athletes are fat.

No, you would love those changes because if TN implement them then they are a part of their creative vision and we wouldn't go against that. Or maybe you would stop playing DOA, never ever complain about changes and just create your own fighting game... 'cause those are so cheap and easy to create for a one man indie.

If TN does it then yeah. It's fine. But first, let's look at the "diversity" you brought up for that.

Sure, or maybe try actually looking like the style or countries you represent. Would love for a Phillipine silat fighter and someone using muay thai who actually looks like Buakaw.

A character should look a certain way if he uses a certain fighting style.

Yup, I don't want that type of "Diversity" in my game.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Same thing goes for Rachel and Momiji, or even Phase-4. Rachel and Momiji are essentially legacy characters.

Saw this from few pages back despite how late it was, but this is actually not correct lol. A legacy character is a character that arrived as a staple or has an accumulated years of mothership title entries within the "fighting games" it has been introduced to.

Kasumi, Ayane, Jann Lee, Bayman, and Tina for example, are legacy characters because they've been in the game since the first bits.

Rig/Mila/Momiji/Rachel and many of the newcomers from DOA5 and up however are not exactly considered legacy characters since this is their 2nd entry to the fighting game inclusion (least not yet, still have a while). Their inclusion to Ninja Gaiden doesn't actually count as they have not been in a fighting game during those years until the release of DOA5U (upgrades also don't not count as a legacy since those are just revamps from that mothership title). Guests don't count obviously. In which case by technical portions, they've only been in 2 mothership titled games. Nyotengu is technically a new character but "by character design", while using Bankotsubo's movekit with far better improvements and removed some of the issues he had, which he was considered a legacy character.

Though regarding Momiji and Rachel, it's still a rather difficult situation since they've been deemed as guests (by Itagaki when he got asked about the roster for DOA5U/DOA5LR despite no involvement for it) and at times I do however feel like they are part of the roster initially, but this is also the 2nd game where Rachel and Momiji are not involved in DOA story to form up with any sorts of canonical placements to even consider them as the term "legacy" because by definition, they'd have to truly be part of it. Realistically, a character with no story inclusion is no different than a 3rd party guest character being included in. Literally the only difference is that the other two are from a household brand from a different IP.

 

[werewolfgold]

Sure... Marie is a carbon copy of a character but you just don't know who exactly right now... LMAO. Is it going to be a carbon copy like how Nico is just Rem? Or you talking about a Kasumi-Mai situation? lol

You're being overly pedantic because you think it helps your case, but no one is buying it. Okay, Marie is not a "carbon copy" of, say, Rachel Alucard from Blazblue because she doesn't have an umbrella cat and a pink bat following her around. But anyone off the street would look at them at a glance and say they look pretty similar, because it's the same trope. Whether they are too similar, whatever that would mean, is obviously going to be up to individual opinions. I think that because the trope itself is so overused, I would've rather TN not go that route at all because the originality of the concept has been drained dry. And I even recall a few earlier Marie concepts that looked more interesting. But TN said "hrrm, goth lolis are the in thing nowadays, we needs us some of that" and called it a day. And they didn't even set it up very plausibly.

I too, can strip everything away from a character and say they don't stand out. Jann is a shirtless dude in baggy pants and makes sounds like Bruce Lee? Does not stand out at all. The design of the pants does not matter right? The same way Marie's dress design does not matter. Ayane is just the ninja archetype. Doesn't stand out at all. Zack is in his Muay thai outfit? It's just a shirtless dude in shorts we see every Muay thai practitioner wear. Nothing stands out. Now he's in a suit? A fighter in a suit. I've never seen that archetype before...

...I mean, you can indeed do that. But you do realize I'm advocating for more unique-looking designs, right? It's not some kind of gotcha to me to say that Jann Lee isn't that unique. It's really not. lol

I love people who like to throw out whataboutism. Issues are only an issue when it suits them and reality can be dismissed because it does not fit the narrative.

Self-love is indeed important.

Tn: "Want body diversity? Here's Marie and Honoka." -> You guys: "There's no body diversity in DOA and everyone is the same!!"

You guys: "We don't need more Japanese characters!!" -> "But those Japanese characters are fine because X and Y" -> "Can TN stop making Japanese characters!?!?" lmao

Yes. Keep up. People don't want the diversity that Marie and Honoka bring because they look like children. So, do something else. We don't need more Japanese characters, and it'd be nice if they'd broaden their horizons. But it'd be too absolutist to say that no Japanese character would ever be acceptable again without seeing them first. They may be so awesome that it overrides the fact that it's yet another Japanese character. Sometimes there are enough pluses to override the minuses. Come to the real world where context matters. We have cake. lol

You literally gave reasons why more Japanese characters and clones are acceptable when one big complaint here is, "Too many Japanese people". If that was really such a big deal then you wouldn't be making excuses for more Japanese characters. Oh, and let me try out you logic. Just because DOA used clones in the past does not mean they should today. Standards have risen.

You see, the problem is that you don't understand the things you read. I patently did not give reasons why more Japanese people would be acceptable. Stop making things up. I told you why some characters didn't get as much backlash as others, and why some characters may have been somewhat accepted overall in the past.

Furthermore, I'm not advocating for more clones. I don't want more clones. And I don't want more Japanese people. Hell, take some of them out. By all means, boot Tamaki from the roster. Bye, bye Honoka. Bye, bye P4. Mai, your time has passed. Don't bring Naotora back. GTFO, Raidou. Nyotengu can stay, I guess. Bam. I'm happy. And they'd damn better think long and hard before adding another Japanese person instead of going with someplace else. So, yes, my logic holds very well.

Same as in previous DOA games where ages were hidden and... Oh wait. If I mentioned stuff like that then it's whataboutism. Yes, DOA has never done anything like that before until Marie came in. All the girls were above age and were never in skimpy outfits. DOA never catered to the Japanese(otaku)/ anime crowd and was always targeted towards the mature and morally superior people like you. No suggestive situations and outfits existed back then. School uniforms, gym outfits, maid outfits, and things like that never existed since those things would cater to the Japanese(otaku)/ anime crowd.

So, uhh...I know you saw that part about standards being higher now, right? I know you did because you just tried and failed to use it against me. So, WTF is this?

*clears throat* Just because you did something before, doesn't mean you should still do it going forward. *taps mic* Is this thing on?

Also, people could've been okay with something before, but have gotten sick of it and/or changed their minds on it now, e.g. whether or not you should have half-naked 16-17 year olds as the centerpiece of your game. Hell, it's been over 20 years since DOA1. Some fans may even have kids now. That might cause people to think differently about how minors are treated in video games.

Am I the only person here who understands that not every character needs to cater to me specifically?

Yes. You're the ooooooooooooonly one.

And that because they do not cater to me they are not bad just for existing? That's the point in adding different types of characters.

I don't care what you say about Bass because I hate wrestlers like how you guys hate certain archetypes. What's so good about a Tengu? I'd rather have a character in armor like Genra. Kokoro is just a boring Asian but I know some people like her. Who cares about Leon and him wanting to be stronger or whatever? Bayman looks better.

You don't like those characters. Mkay. Guess what? There are some characters that I don't like and yet don't mind that they're there. Mila and Diego are meh to me. They can still stay. Lucky Chloe from Tekken is an abomination unto the Lord. And I think sleepy vampire Eliza is dumb. But as long as they don't try to add 2-3 more characters just like them, I'm done wasting breath on them.

But it's a tad different when you're trying to exploit loopholes for morally dubious reasons and/or just being blatantly morally dubious. So, yeah, people are gonna complain about Marie et. al, more than others. It's not just about "not liking" those characters. Yeah, some original characters were "too young" before. But they still didn't look as young as Marie, and again, standards have changed.

Everyone knows what's up with anime at this point. Once you hit high school (or even sometimes earlier than that), you're fair game in every sense of the word. I would kind of respect TN more if they said "fuck it, Marie is 15 because that's how we roll." I don't think I would like it, but I'd get it, given the state of Japanese popular media right now (perhaps how it always was). The "fake I.D." thing they have going on is just an insult to everyone's intelligence. lol

 

[DestructionBomb]

Looks like human013 is back at it again with the posts of the literal definition of pure gimmicks. There are times where I feel like he just posts just to post lol.

 

[human013]

You're being overly pedantic because you think it helps your case, but no one is buying it. Okay, Marie is not a "carbon copy" of, say, Rachel Alucard from Blazblue because she doesn't have an umbrella cat and a pink bat following her around. But anyone off the street would look at them at a glance and say they look pretty similar, because it's the same trope. Whether they are too similar, whatever that would mean, is obviously going to be up to individual opinions. I think that because the trope itself is so overused, I would've rather TN not go that route at all because the originality of the concept has been drained dry. And I even recall a few earlier Marie concepts that looked more interesting. But TN said "hrrm, goth lolis are the in thing nowadays, we needs us some of that" and called it a day. And they didn't even set it up very plausibly.

I'm being overly pedantic because I didn't go along with the claim that you yourself cannot even back up? Sure.

Went from

Don't be stupid. I choose to believe you're smarter than this, so I can only conclude you're operating in bad faith. They should avoid bringing in characters that look like carbon copies of characters from other franchises.

to "You're being overly pedantic because you think it helps your case". Right. I'll disregard what I can actually see and take your word instead. I mean, Nico is the splitting image of Rem and if they swapped places no one would notice.

...I mean, you can indeed do that. But you do realize I'm advocating for more unique-looking designs, right? It's not some kind of gotcha to me to say that Jann Lee isn't that unique. It's really not. lol

My bad. I didn't know that was a legit way to describe characters here. I was trying to show you how moot your point was when you described Marie but now I know where you're coming from. Details and design don't matter as much as general descriptions. Got it. I hope I won't be able to generalize the next new character's outfit too.

Yes. Keep up. People don't want the diversity that Marie and Honoka bring because they look like children. So, do something else. We don't need more Japanese characters, and it'd be nice if they'd broaden their horizons. But it'd be too absolutist to say that no Japanese character would ever be acceptable again without seeing them first. They may be so awesome that it overrides the fact that it's yet another Japanese character. Sometimes there are enough pluses to override the minuses. Come to the real world where context matters. We have cake. lol

Oh, so that's how it works. Weeks and months of the same complaint over and over about too many Japanese characters only for it to disappear for a few weeks then reappear. With how much you guys complained about it I thought it was a real issue. I'll keep that in mind for the other complaints you guys have too. IRL tsunderes lol.

You see, the problem is that you don't understand the things you read. I patently did not give reasons why more Japanese people would be acceptable. Stop making things up. I told you why some characters didn't get as much backlash as others, and why some characters may have been somewhat accepted overall in the past.

Nyo is more accepted because at least she doesn't look like a child and at least she's there for people that missed Bankotsubo. Tamaki is more accepted because at least she doesn't look like a child.

ok.

So, uhh...I know you saw that part about standards being higher now, right. I know you did because you just tried and failed to use it against me. So, WTF is this? *clears throat* Just because you did something before, doesn't mean you should still do it going forward. *taps mic* Is this thing on? Also, people could've been okay with something before, but have gotten sick of it or changed their minds on it now, e.g. whether or not you should have half-naked 16-17 year olds as the centerpiece of your game. Hell, it's been over 20 years since DOA1. Some fans may even have kids now. That might cause people to think differently about how minors are treated in video games.

So as you guys grow older DOA is supposed to change it's identity and cater to you guys, because you are getting older? The series about young girls and TnA is supposed to stop that because you guys are older... Right. That makes total sense.

I found the gore in MK to be funny and cool as a kid and as I grew up I started to hate it. I'm glad MK changed its entire identity for people like me who got tired of the gore. A bloodless MK, like the one we have today.

The world you guys live in is amazing. Only you guys exist so when you were teens it was ok to have teens in DOA. Then as you got older, no more humans were being created therefore young people do not exist so DOA was only suppose to create more characters specifically for you guys. Makes sense I guess. That must be why DOA is dead too. It never attracted any new people in over 15 years and only you guys play it.

Yes. You're the ooooooooooooonly one.

Judging by the previous message it looks like it.

You don't like those characters. Mkay. Guess what? There are some characters that I don't like and yet don't mind that they're there. Mila and Diego are meh to me. They can still stay. Lucky Chloe from Tekken is an abomination unto the Lord. And I think sleepy vampire Eliza is dumb. But as long as they don't try to add 2-3 more characters just like them, I'm done wasting breath on them.

But it's a tad different when you're trying to exploit loopholes for morally dubious reasons and/or just being blatantly morally dubious. So, yeah, people are gonna complain about Marie et. al, more than others. It's not just about "not liking" those characters. Yeah, some original characters were "too young" before. But again, standards have changed.

Everyone knows what's up with anime at this point. Once you hit high school (or even sometimes earlier than that), you're fair game in every sense of the word. I would kind of respect TN more if they said "fuck it, Marie is 15 because that's how we roll." I don't think I would like it, but I'd get it, given the state of Japanese popular media right now (perhaps how it always was). But the "fake I.D." thing they have going on is just an insult to everyone's intelligence. lol

The world is such a small stagnant place it seems.

 

[werewolfgold]

I'm being overly pedantic because I didn't go along with the claim that you yourself cannot even back up? Sure.

Again, this isn't helping you. You understand the general tenor of the convo, but you're getting hung up because I hyperbolically said "carbon copy of" and not "looks too similar to" or something. No one cares but you. Yes, you're being too pedantic. Moving on.

My bad. I didn't know that was a legit way to describe characters here.

It's not really, but your point there was meaningless to begin with and that was my way of dismissing it. You can strip everything away and say that a character doesn't stand out, but even with everything included the characters in question don't stand out visually. That's the problem. There are characters that are more distinct from a glance without having to get into "but the pattern on the skirt is actually different."

NiCO has a better case to be made, than Marie and Honoka, I guess.

Oh, so that's how it works. Weeks and months of the same complaint over and over about too many Japanese characters only for it to disappear for a few weeks then reappear. With how much you guys complained about it I thought it was a real issue. I'll keep that in mind for the other complaints you guys have too. IRL tsunderes lol.

Boy, shut up. lol

ok.

Dude, do you fucking understand what words mean? I did not explain why more, as in "more than we have now", Japanese characters would be acceptable. I explained to you why some of the current, as in "the ones currently in the game now", may have gotten less backlash when they were revealed and are more accepted currently and in comparison to Marie, Honoka, or NiCO. This doesn't say anything about more additions or how acceptable they'd be GOING FORWARD. Is this really the level that we're at?

So as you guys grow older DOA is supposed to change it's identity and cater to you guys, because you are getting older? The series about young girls and TnA is supposed to stop that because you guys are older...

Maybe? Not necessarily. I mean, they are clearly r i d i n g s o h i g h r i g h t n o w. Why would any change be necessary? lol

A number of long standing franchises have made changes with the times. We've moved past Adam West-style and Joel Shumacher-style Batman, haven't we? They can keep adding more lolis and stuff if they think it'll get them more sales, but I don't think it will. I very well may be wrong. It could be full-speed ahead to 18-year-old loli town and haters would just have to get off the money train. Sucks to be them. lol

The world you guys live in is amazing. Only you guys exist so when you were teens it was ok to have teens in DOA. Then as you got older, no more humans were being created therefore young people do not exist so DOA was on

Yeah, that's enough. lol

Who are you arguing is the audience for these characters? DOA used to be rated 13+ but it and its spin-offs have been rated 17+ for a while now. Given that, it is suspect when they, say, add a 1014-year-old demon girl...that just looks 14...that you can try to date. Who is that for?

 

[jusD]

Except that logic doesn't apply in that scenario. I participated in this thread *because* it piqued my interests. There's no actual indication that outright state that I despise this specific subject. I'm making annotation. So you can't really make that argument. Representation is a good thing for as long as it is not with some woke agenda in mind. Or, if it is done in some cringeworthy or insultingly stereotypical bent on overt "realism" in a series like DOA.

What I will concede is that DOA6 in of itself is flawed and a rather divisive entry in the series. But, that is mostly from a competitive standpoint and a lot of questionable/contradictory decisions in their marketing.

And nobody here seems to despise or hate DOA as a series. Not for some woke reasons and or in search of realism, dear god how did you even make that straw man?!

Realism should only be used as a medium for inspiration, especially if you consider the general setting of Dead or Alive (which was never a totally realistic fighting game to begin with, if you're looking at this retroactively)

If you want to construct a game that is built specifically on realism, don't count on too many people taking it seriously for too long. There are good reasons why most people would rather invest time, effort, and resources (and even make legitimate competitions) out of games such as King of Fighters, Street Fighter or Dead or Alive than play some... UFC game for example. Or, otherwise some fighting game that is built specifically with an overly literal realism in mind. I might not speak for some people but I would *not* invest in a game like this..

Sure, this is mostly what I said and ment. DOA is realistic on the VF <-> MK scale, not the UFC <-> Candy Crash or whatever else you thought. It used to be VF -> DOA -> Tekken -> SC -> SF -> -> -> MK and anything else.

Also your argument just proves that realism is not the key factor for competitive fighting game, not that realism itself create problems. Pretty sure VF was viewed quite fondly. And are you really going to tell me that it is only the competitive scene of the game that is important and anything distracting from it should be removed? Make DOA fighter again, remove anything not eSports-friendly! In truth we probably agree on what is important in fighting games to last longer even if I am more of casual couch-arcade player who care more enjoying the entertainment then serious competition in computer games.

And, to speak a little more about fighting styles, I actually practiced Teakwondo. But, that sure as hell does not mean I have to main Rig or even like the character, even for their fighting style (granted, I don't like or hate Rig but that is another story). As long as there are a few basic concepts in use, I don't really care how much liberties in the fantastic elements the franchise takes towards the fighting style. As long as there are some specific inspirations in use to identify that they *do* use that fighting style, it does not matter and is not that big of a deal. That's why I don't necessarily mind Rig or Juri from Street Fighter (who I *did* play at tournaments in the days of Super SFIV. And, not just because of her fighting style).

Yeah, some people care about that and some people don't. I am happy as long as the style is fun to watch and play while still resembling the actual style within context of that game reality. Tkd having fireballs and shit is fine in SF or Tekken but would be a bit much in VF but most important would be to stil keep the feeling of the style "true". A hypothetical thai boxer with focus on punches and shin kicks can be called TKD because style (at least some itf) does have that, same for a tkd with wrestling only (no, we will not call it HKD). Little things, but it would cheapen the setting somewhat at least for me.

Yeah, I'll just go with what you guys claim then. There are too many Japaneses characters in this game and too many 18yo Japanese girls. Since Marie was released in 2013 we've been getting so many clones of her that in 7 years we have a grand total of 3.
View attachment 32150

LMAO

Do you not see the point yet? If variations exists then who are you to say that that a character does not look X or Y?

lol try saying things like that to people IRL and tell me their reaction. "You say you're from America but your skin color is more like those in Latin America. Why are you American?"

I do not understand your screenshot, given how you can show me just one specific look for 18yo Jap/Fe it must mean that everybody in the roster is a copy of Marie and each other.

Also, the difference between life and fiction is that one is created by someone and the other is much stranger then fiction. And the question would be "You say that this is a Swedish 18+ girl but why does she look som much like anime idol loli without the looks, height or behavior that could be associated with a Swede?".

I don't know why this is even an issue. Go make your own character then?

Or I can complain. I value my believability more then your opinions on what is and is not an issue in a game with bland characters.

If there is no one look for a country then characters can look however they want. It's that simple.

No, wrong. There is a range of specific characteristic which are more prominent within different countries. Some native people in those countries might look nothing like that but doesn't mean creators can get away with not even trying.

Since you're so fixated on this, show me a red eyed purple hair Japanese girl like Ayane. Do that for all the characters before Marie. For some reason DOA decided to only changed their motto when it comes to Marie and Nico.

Sure, give me all magical ninjas from Japan and I will show you. And no, I want do any of that shit.

Thanks for that. It's been a while so didn't remember but I'll break it down one last time. Actually never mind. Fat characters are as popular and as fit characters. Movies, games, tv shows, ads, idols, models, etc are all populated by fat people and everyone wants fat people for those roles. Even the majority of boxers, fighters, and athletes are fat.

It is har to remember what you wrote a couple of days ago so I understand completely. Please rest you big brain and don't overwork it just for us.

Given all that, I never claimed that everybody should be fat or that they are needed in every game. But there seems to be some fat people in almost every fighting game (because it is a simple archetype to work with) and the reason for athletes not being fat should be quite selfexplanatory. Also, sumo and powerlifters exist.

If TN does it then yeah. It's fine. But first, let's look at the "diversity" you brought up for that.

A character should look a certain way if he uses a certain fighting style.

Yup, I don't want that type of "Diversity" in my game.

So, you are just corporate shill who swallow anything as long as the logo is right, nice!

My complain is mostly that there should be reasonable explanation why somebody uses their style. And if you want to have a genius, young looking short girl who uses silat... maybe just a person from styles country (and you could use the actual "I am older then I look"-trope while giving her 27-30ish age) ?! Much less suspension of disbelief is needed then Swedish and Finnish girls having least height of all the cast or child geniuses in SCIENCE just learn fighting styles because lol random.

 

[Onryoki]

Earlier I saw a comparison between Mai and Kasumi. That comparison is quite dumb. Yes, Mai has been the main inspiration of Kasumi (Can’t blame Itagaki because Mai is an icon), but Kasumi even though she has a similar costume to Mai is very different from Mai. Personality wise Kasumi is the polar opposite of Mai, even their appearance is completely different, aside from the ponytail and costume. Kasumi is a fine example of how you use another character as inspiration and make it your own. Marie and Honoka don’t look like they were inspired by something and made their own by TN. They’re just copied, Honoka especially.

After receiving Honoka I understand that people want more diversity. The majority non guest DLC have been rehashed movesets. From other characters. Phase 4 Kasumi, Nyotengu from Tengu, Raidou from basically all the male characters, Honoka from everybody in the roster. The only truly original DLC characters with original movesets we received are Tamaki and Marie rose. The thing with Marie is though, is that her appearance is very generic, anime, totally fine before and uninspired.

People want diversity, but what people truly mean with diversity is them creating a character from a broader scale than just the basic anime tropes and fighting game tropes that every fighting game possesses. Nico is basically the evil anime scientist/smart character that’s in every anime, it’s boring and seen before that’s why she gets hate. Diego is just the basic brawler than doesn’t stand out and is straight up forgettable.

Every character after DOA4 feels uninspired, and like @werewolfgold said. Times are changing, 20 -30 years ago it was plausible because they had less resources, but at this point they should come up with something more original and less on the nose. Also werewolfgold, I have to disagree with you that Tamaki have to go, I think Tamaki fits the fighting franchise more. She feels refreshing and original. I just wish her gameplay was fleshed out and her personality wasn’t so anime.

Phase 4 should’ve been the clone for DOA5, with DOA5 they should’ve ended the clone storyline and focus more on DOATEC, Kasumi and Hayabusa’s villages and create new storylines for the rest of the cast.

 

[human013]

Again, this isn't helping you. You understand the general tenor of the convo, but you're getting hung up because I hyperbolically said "carbon copy of" and not "looks too similar to" or something. No one cares but you. Yes, you're being too pedantic. Moving on.

You are legit just complaining about a trope existing and I'm saying the characters are still unique in design even if they are based on tropes. But hey, do whatever you gotta do to make your headcanon real i guess. I hope you don't ever play Tekken because Leroy is going to make you lose your mind. Wing chun in a chinese outfit. Whew.

It's not really, but your point there was meaningless to begin with and that was my way of dismissing it. You can strip everything away and say that a character doesn't stand out, but even with everything included the characters in question don't stand out visually. That's the problem. There are characters that are more distinct from a glance without having to get into "but the pattern on the skirt is actually different."

NiCO has a better case to be made, than Marie and Honoka, I guess.

Nice to know that is how we approach characters here. I'll make sure to remember to do that so I can join the party next time a character is revealed.

No wonder DOA and Tekken are like water and oil. Characters like Jin and Kazuya would never fly here with them just being shirtless dudes in pants and gloves.

Dude, do you fucking understand what words mean? I did not explain why more, as in "more than we have now", Japanese characters would be acceptable. I explained to you why some of the current, as in "the ones currently in the game now", may have gotten less backlash when they were revealed and are more accepted currently and in comparison to Marie, Honoka, or NiCO. This doesn't say anything about more additions or how acceptable they'd be GOING FORWARD. Is this really the level that we're at?

You guys didn't have this complaint during DOA5's life? You guys didn't say that before DOA6? Time moved forward right? lmao

Maybe? Not necessarily. I mean, they are clearly r i d i n g s o h i g h r i g h t n o w. Why would any change be necessary? lol

A number of long standing franchises have made changes with the times. We've moved past Adam West-style and Joel Shumacher-style Batman, haven't we? They can keep adding more lolis and stuff if they think it'll get them more sales, but I don't think it will. I very well may be wrong. It could be full-speed ahead to 18-year-old loli town and haters would just have to get off the money train. Sucks to be them. lol

No game or fighting game examples? I wonder why?

Yeah, lolis are the reason DOA is hurting.

Yeah, that's enough. lol

Who are you arguing is the audience for these characters? DOA used to be rated 13+ but it and its spin-offs have been rated 17+ for a while now. Given that, it is suspect when they, say, add a 1014-year-old demon girl...that just looks 14...that you can try to date. Who is that for?

Finally learning that there are more people in the world than just you guys? Or is it that you can't accept that DOA is still doing the same old things it has always done? lol I'm sure when you guys were teens all the adults and parents would have been happy to have the family gather around to watch you play DOA. They wouldn't see DOA as creepy at all. lmao

I don't know. You guys were the people who grew up with DOA and DOAX so you tell me because I see no difference. I would have never played the old DOA games because they look like barbies and DOAX just isn't my thing. As far as I can tell, you guys are the same as them when you were younger.

Sure, give me all magical ninjas from Japan and I will show you. And no, I want do any of that shit.

Show me maid who uses systema from Sweden. Show me a scientist who teleports and shoots lightning from Finland. See my point yet?

It is har to remember what you wrote a couple of days ago so I understand completely. Please rest you big brain and don't overwork it just for us.

Given all that, I never claimed that everybody should be fat or that they are needed in every game. But there seems to be some fat people in almost every fighting game (because it is a simple archetype to work with) and the reason for athletes not being fat should be quite selfexplanatory. Also, sumo and powerlifters exist.

So, you are just corporate shill who swallow anything as long as the logo is right, nice!

My complain is mostly that there should be reasonable explanation why somebody uses their style. And if you want to have a genius, young looking short girl who uses silat... maybe just a person from styles country (and you could use the actual "I am older then I look"-trope while giving her 27-30ish age) ?! Much less suspension of disbelief is needed then Swedish and Finnish girls having least height of all the cast or child geniuses in SCIENCE just learn fighting styles because lol random.

 

[jusD]

Finally learning that there are more people in the world than just you guys? Or is it that you can't accept that DOA is still doing the same old things it has always done? lol I'm sure when you guys were teens all the adults and parents would have been happy to have the family gather around to watch you play DOA. They wouldn't see DOA as creepy at all. lmao

Most adults wouldn't care about fighting games or loved playing those (we had people in the dojo who loved good fighter like DOA and Tekken) and parents probably would wonder why I don't study or if I want to punch things, why I don't just go and train instead of being such a nerd.

I don't know. You guys were the people who grew up with DOA and DOAX so you tell me because I see no difference. I would have never played the old DOA games because they look like barbies and DOAX just isn't my thing. As far as I can tell, you guys are the same as them when you were younger.

So you didn't respect the creators original vision, such a bad child!

Also, there were less of bleed over from the DOAX games into main fighting game and peoples conscience at the time bacause you had to actively search for either DOAX, specific PR art or fan art to see that. Now, with Reddit, Twitter and whole Steam page full of niceness as well as the regular costumes in the core fighter edition... well, I had no problems of playing with my friends and his wife by starting DOA3 except "good do we feel old, remember when this looked good" but trying the DO5LR on his PS4 just led to strange looks and a quick switch to MK.

Show me maid who uses systema from Sweden. Show me a scientist who teleports and shoots lightning from Finland. See my point yet?

Sure, all of those are fantastical but let me show you my point about degrees of suspension of disbelief:
1. Japanese girl born and raised in a mythical ninja village is a ninja.
2. Russian girl born and raised in a mythical ninja village just outside Moscow because Hayabusas ancestors took a wrong torn to McSushi and found themselves in Siberia.
3. Russian girl become mythical ninja because it looked cool on youtube.

Do you understand how the first one would put much less burden on my suspension of disbelief for a martial art entertainment while other to would easily break my illusion, unless learning kung fu from youtube on your way to work was established as completely reasonable within that universe?

Now lets try with actual exempels:
Marie:
1. Swedish girl who became a maid even though existence of martial arts doesn't explain how maid are a thing now in Sweden (sorry, we just don't do that outside porn or American comedies) unlike secret assassins, ninjas and hidden masters.
2. This girl is also among the smallest female fighters even though she from a country with highest average length and is fighting against people from Asia.
3. Also, somehow, she learned Russian bullshido from somewhere because that just how she rolls.

NiCo:
1. Finnish girl who is a child genius in martial... nope, sorry, in science
2. While writing her PhD@MIT she went to Brunei and thought that this whole Silat was awesome because it had Asian version of Jante-attitude of being humble.
3. In between her actual study for her actual profession, unlike those self taught fighters who learned martial arts because that's their focus number one, she just kind wing it in there in between toilet breaks and sleeping.
4. Learned it well enough for the tournament while being 18 when other who focused primarily on their art needed more mat time.
5. Oh, yeah and of course she also, like Marie, brushes the border of dwarfism despite being from Finland. Well, it is a reasonable height for a 14 years old but...

Why not take it further, Marie can have a pet tanuki and speaks only in esperanto while genius NiCo should just summon pikachu for her electric attacks and use nuclear weapons because she is so smart and so small so she can just dodge the radiation!

And most important: it would be fine for ONE character... but when every small girl suddenly has this glaring oddities in character design, well then it becomes too visible. Same with Lisa where I didn't care that "dark skinned scientist who use capoeira infused lucha libre in a nice carnival outfit" is from America and worked in Germany (guess telemundo is just that great on influencing the kids) because there probably was good reasons, but in hindsight I wonder if they just needed to by a new atlas.

You don't agree or just don't feel like clearing your statements? Or are you just shit posting?

Damn, I still stand by my idea of making NiCo an older scientist from South Asia who just looks young. Gives her easy assess to Silat, gives her time to learn the art ([monotone voice] bla bla, her family style tradition must go on she never thought she would have use for it but then tournament happens so she uses her technical knowhow to level the playing field against far superior opponents [/monotone voice]) and gives her size and looks a plausible explanation without burdening anybodies suspension of disbelief and also gives us an bit different template for a girls looks, not like TN could make her look generic I-can-believe-she-is-not-european.

Then give us a new finn girl who is larger and trains in kärringkång (wife carrying, that's a thing) which she obviously self-learned by self-teaching her self the self-made combat version. Now she joins the tournament to finally find her optimal waifu to carry to the finishing lines of the WC in this noble sport. Most optimal waifu for the is bAss.

 

[werewolfgold]

You are legit just complaining about a trope existing and I'm saying the characters are still unique in design even if they are based on tropes. But hey, do whatever you gotta do to make your headcanon real i guess. I hope you don't ever play Tekken because Leroy is going to make you lose your mind. Wing chun in a chinese outfit. Whew.

This is odd given the fact that I brought up Tekken earlier, so obviously I do play it. lol

Complaining about a trope being overused is a fairly common occurrence. You have to cycle through them and give some of them a rest at times.

No wonder DOA and Tekken are like water and oil. Characters like Jin and Kazuya would never fly here with them just being shirtless dudes in pants and gloves.

I mean, they're not the most mind-blowing designs, no. But, they get grandfathered in because they're both over 20 years old. And it's probably why all the T7 characters got a design refresh. Nowadays, you probably can't get away with a new design that just looks like Ryu from Street Fighter or something. You're probably gonna have to try a little harder. It may not be super fair that maybe people had it easier back then, but it is what it is.

Didn't you say that you thought DOA's designs were boring? It's fair enough that you don't think a character should have to look a certain way because they're from a certain country, but what is it that you're looking for exactly?

You guys didn't have this complaint during DOA5's life? You guys didn't say that before DOA6? Time moved forward right? lmao

The new-new characters in DOA5, like, not guests or already existing characters that were brought in, were a Canadian and a Spaniard. Then we got the "Swede", and then Nyo and P4, but people barely paid attention to them for reasons I stated earlier. Probably when Honoka showed up that people were starting to think "no más" when it came to Japanese characters since the "passes" that other Japanese characters had already gotten had run out and she has enough "Japanese" for 3 characters really, lol.

And lastly, I don't think Tamaki was needed. The further DOAXVV can get away from the main game, the better, in my view. People generally might forgive another Japanese character if it's a Genra analogue, because it'd be a Nyo situation again. But, I don't know.

No game or fighting game examples? I wonder why?

I don't know. Because I didn't say one at the time? I can name some. Resident Evil 4 was a new beginning for them, and then RE6 got too wacky, so they revamped yet again with 7. Tomb Raider changed with the reboot. Mortal Kombat clearly stopped doing the concubine chic of the 2000s games. It's less "cheesy kung-fu" movie with everyone shouting fake Asian gibberish and tries to take itself more seriously. Characters don't have 5 rib cages and 3 skulls anymore and it has more nods to war/military vibes. And if the ultra-violence turns enough people off, they may even pair that back going forward. But, I guess one could say that Injustice was their way of taking a break from that. Guilty Gear is revamping in a few ways and we'll see how successful that is.

Finally learning that there are more people in the world than just you guys? Or is it that you can't accept that DOA is still doing the same old things it has always done? lol I'm sure when you guys were teens all the adults and parents would have been happy to have the family gather around to watch you play DOA. They wouldn't see DOA as creepy at all. lmao

This comes off as you evading the question. But sure, I've played DOA with other family members watching. Who gives a shit? We all had a good laugh at the boob physics and everyone loves Hayabusa piledriving people over waterfalls. Fun for everybody. lol

So, again, the games were marketed to 13+ year olds. And the game had sexy, anime 16+ year olds. There are "discussions" to be had around that, but it's still qualitatively different than marketing a game to 17+ year olds, revamping things to look more realistic, and then...what? Throwing in girls that look 14? lol

What am I not "accepting"? "DOA still doing the same old things it has always done" is, I'm pretty sure, something that I've expressed to not be ideal. I'm saying they should do something different, maybe just not having it involve girls that look 14. Now that is different. Everyone acknowledged that Marie was different. You acknowledged that she was different. So, what are you saying? DOA was creepy then, it's creepy now, and should continue to be creepy going forward? Is that your argument? lol

Also werewolfgold, I have to disagree with you that Tamaki have to go, I think Tamaki fits the fighting franchise more. She feels refreshing and original. I just wish her gameplay was fleshed out and her personality wasn’t so anime.

I was mainly kicking her out of the game to prove a point about excess Japanese characters. She may be salvageable. Hell, Diego could be salvageable. A lot of characters could become more endearing if they fleshed out their personalities and motivations more and didn't just rely on simple anime shorthand all the time. But, the question is will TN do any of that?

I never bought her, so would you say her aikido is an interesting enough addition, or could they have just fleshed out Momiji with some of her moves?

 

[Onryoki]

This is odd given the fact that I brought up Tekken earlier, so obviously I do play it. lol

Complaining about a trope being overused is a fairly common occurrence. You have to cycle through them and give some of them a rest at times.


I mean, they're not the most mind-blowing designs, no. But, they get grandfathered in because they're both over 20 years old. And it's probably why all the T7 characters got a design refresh. Nowadays, you probably can't get away with a new design that just looks like Ryu from Street Fighter or something. You're probably gonna have to try a little harder. It may not be super fair that maybe people had it easier back then, but it is what it is.

Didn't you say that you thought DOA's designs were boring? It's fair enough that you don't think a character should have to look a certain way because they're from a certain country, but what is it that you're looking for exactly?


The new-new characters in DOA5, like, not guests or already existing characters that were brought in, were a Canadian and a Spaniard. Then we got the "Swede", and then Nyo and P4, but people barely paid attention to them for reasons I stated earlier. Probably when Honoka showed up that people were starting to think "no más" when it came to Japanese characters since the "passes" that other Japanese characters had already gotten had run out and she has enough "Japanese" for 3 characters really, lol.

And lastly, I don't think Tamaki was needed. The further DOAXVV can get away from the main game, the better, in my view. People generally might forgive another Japanese character if it's a Genra analogue, because it'd be a Nyo situation again. But, I don't know.


I don't know. Because I didn't say one at the time? I can name some. Resident Evil 4 was a new beginning for them, and then RE6 got too wacky, so they revamped yet again with 7. Tomb Raider changed with the reboot. Mortal Kombat clearly stopped doing the concubine chic of the 2000s games. It's less "cheesy kung-fu" movie with everyone shouting fake Asian gibberish and tries to take itself more seriously. Characters don't have 5 rib cages and 3 skulls anymore and it has more nods to war/military vibes. And if the ultra-violence turns enough people off, they may even pair that back going forward. But, I guess one could say that Injustice was their way of taking a break from that. Guilty Gear is revamping in a few ways and we'll see how successful that is.


This comes off as you evading the question. But sure, I've played DOA with other family members watching. Who gives a shit? We all had a good laugh at the boob physics and everyone loves Hayabusa piledriving people over waterfalls. Fun for everybody. lol

So, again, the games were marketed to 13+ year olds. And the game had sexy, anime 16+ year olds. There are "discussions" to be had around that, but it's still qualitatively different than marketing a game to 17+ year olds, revamping things to look more realistic, and then...what? Throwing in girls that look 14? lol

What am I not "accepting"? "DOA still doing the same old things it has always done" is, I'm pretty sure, something that I've expressed to not be ideal. I'm saying they should do something different, maybe just not having it involve girls that look 14. Now that is different. Everyone acknowledged that Marie was different. You acknowledged that she was different. So, what are you saying? DOA was creepy then, it's creepy now, and should continue to be creepy going forward? Is that your argument? lol


I was mainly kicking her out of the game to prove a point about excess Japanese characters. She may be salvageable. Hell, Diego could be salvageable. A lot of characters could become more endearing if they fleshed out their personalities and motivations more and didn't just rely on simple anime shorthand all the time. But, the question is will TN do any of that?

I never bought her, so would you say her aikido is an interesting enough addition, or could they have just fleshed out Momiji with some of her moves?

Her Aikido definitely is a interesting addition to the game, I’ve player her quite some time now and I have to say that she feels refreshing, yet rushed at the same time. If her moveset was more fleshed out and less rushed, she would’ve been even greater. I don’t think her moves could be an addition to Momiji, she fights too different from Momiji.

 

[werewolfgold]

I don’t think her moves could be an addition to Momiji, she fights too different from Momiji.

I only say that because their fighting styles on paper have the same roots (aikijutsu vs. aikido). But, Momiji is just more "ninja" than anything and I've always thought she lacked some of the core her style is supposed to have. They probably shouldn't be fighting so differently.

 

[Jotamide]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382798808069902337

I know I'm necroing a 6-month old thread, but more than different character designs I want different body types so badly. It's a crime that Mila barely has any abs.

 

[Onryoki]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382798808069902337

I know I'm necroing a 6-month old thread, but more than different character designs I want different body types so badly. It's a crime that Mila barely has any abs.

Diversity in DOA? They don’t even know how to spell diversity, let alone know the meaning of it.

 

[human013]

Hmmm... Marie Rose is 4' 10" and 86lb... Honoka is 4' 11" and 99lbs...

Let me fix that picture for you.

There we go. Now this is real diversity and no longer creepy. It's also so diverse that Asians aren't even included. Diversity at it's finest.

Western media:

• Superman: 6'3"
• Batman: 6'2"
• Tony Stark: 6'1"
• Wonderwoman: 5'10"
• Hawkgirl: 5'11"
• Rogue: 5'8"
• Mystique: 5'10"
• Kratos: 7'0"
• Peter Parker: 5'10"

I wonder why they use those heights (and weight) and not the heights (and weight) from, lets say, Japan or Korea?

Japanese media:

• Heihachi: 5'10"
• Jin: 5'11"
• Asuka: 5'5"
• lars: 5'10"
• Hayabusa: 5'10"
• naruto: 5'11"
• hayate : 5'11"
• Lili: 5'8"
• Nina: 5'3"

hmmm...I wonder why do these differences exist?

 

[Onryoki]

Bullshit post award of the year goes to:.......

 

[jusD]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382798808069902337

I know I'm necroing a 6-month old thread, but more than different character designs I want different body types so badly. It's a crime that Mila barely has any abs.

While I would love some diversity in character looks and silhouette especially, that photo do not show what some people think it shows. These is just a picture that tells us that athletes in different fields and competing in different weight classes do indeed look different. Sure, long distrance walking/running and rhythmic gymnastics winners look small and thin while stil being winners but would they really have anything to say in an open weight fighting competition?!
This photo would be better with either women from different martial arts styles or even better with most notable men who competed in UFC/K1/etc.

Hmmm... Marie Rose is 4' 10" and 86lb... Honoka is 4' 11" and 99lbs...

Let me fix that picture for you.
There we go. Now this is real diversity and no longer creepy. It's also so diverse that Asians aren't even included. Diversity at it's finest.

Because the size and looks of Ros-Marie and Honkers totally depends on those being an advantage in their field and not because of "other reasons".
Also, an answer in the tweet showed the rest of the photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzC38TzWEAIXEvt?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 where we have Tabitha Yim who is Korea American and also Cheryl Haworth who actually look exactly like how I imagine any women in open weight lifting competiotion would look like. And if we take two lifters from the picture (Tara Nott 5'1''@105lbs and Cheryl Haworth 5'9''@297lbs) and make them compete against each other, I know where I put my money. Actually strange that they croped the pictures before her... not very progressive.

Western media:

• Superman: 6'3"
• Batman: 6'2"
• Tony Stark: 6'1"
• Wonderwoman: 5'10"
• Hawkgirl: 5'11"
• Rogue: 5'8"
• Mystique: 5'10"
• Kratos: 7'0"
• Peter Parker: 5'10"

I wonder why they use those heights (and weight) and not the heights (and weight) from, lets say, Japan or Korea?

Japanese media:

• Heihachi: 5'10"
• Jin: 5'11"
• Asuka: 5'5"
• lars: 5'10"
• Hayabusa: 5'10"
• naruto: 5'11"
• hayate : 5'11"
• Lili: 5'8"
• Nina: 5'3"

hmmm...I wonder why do these differences exist?

No idea, since there are no specific looks bound to nationality, right? So just because avrg for women in Japan is 158.5 cm and for Sweden is 166.7 cm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country doesn't mean that Marie is not completle normal representation of a swede. Otherwise we would have to do some crazy advanced stuff like research looks and styles when we create characters from different parts of the world, which would be crazy.