Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

[Fantailler]

This. I don't understand people who say they get blown open by holds when in DOA, you CAN hold off on doing a combo and do extensions on people who hold.

It's not like SF, Tekken or most other fighters where you HAVE to get combos down in seconds. If someone tries to hold or spams holds, you can literally wait and punish or grab them when they do so for extra damage, especially if it's a command grab.

I honestly feel like most people don't watch DOA tournaments because one of the main things that is DRILLED into you by the high tier players is to never spam holds since you can get blown up stupid fast for it.

Compare the same situation between two games: vf5fs and doa5

After a counter hit, i assure you the choices given to both players are drastically different...and clearly more limited and annoying in DOA,on defense and offense.There's always a solution in vf,and you can play one or two strikes ahead, you know why it worked or not.You use a move to land the next one.

In doa it feels lucky when i land a hit or a full string on a stunned opponent...same applies for Holds out of stun.It's not always the case ofc.

It doesn't feel the same when i land a counter hold from stun and when i land one in the middle of a string on neutral...it's either "thank god it worked" or "who's your daddy ?"

DOA is more "binary" once you hit.It is,and has always been unorthodox.

Edit:As Raansu said it's too RPS heavy.Once your decision is made there's nothing you can do but watch if it worked of not.

Man my post may be confusing

 

[NightAntilli]

After a counter hit, i assure you the choices given to both players are drastically different...and clearly more limited and annoying in DOA,on defense and offense.There's always a solution in vf,and you can play one or two strikes ahead, you know why it worked or not.You use a move to land the next one.

In doa it feels lucky when i land a hit or a full string on a stunned opponent...same applies for Holds out of stun.It's not always the case ofc.

You hit the nail on the head. And this is exactly why VF5FS is practically the best 3D fighter out there. Whether my attack fails or not, in VF5FS I feel like it was my own doing, 95%+ of the time. In DOA it feels like the opposite. Majority of the things I do feels like getting lucky or getting unlucky. Unless of course, the skill discrepancy is huge. And even in that case, DOA allows many more lucky options to be viable compared to VF.

 

[Hajin']

I agree with the hold thing being annoying when sometimes you got a good read on an opponent only to get random held out of nowhere killing your momentum. That being said baiting holds is so much fun too.
Ryu Hayabusa stun game is so fun for example :
One thing I loved to do was either 6K or 3P to get a super strong stun and if my opponent was not SE-ing or if he held right away 214P would always hit for a juicy sit down stun and free CB into Shoho Izuna
Stun into Shoho Izuna is also a nice bait since it's delayed perfectly to punish holds and the thing does 100~damage to any weight class just after a 6P ch.
And let's not forget that if the Ryu player knows you're gonna hold = Izuna Otoshi for 120 damage, if you add the 22~ish of 6P ch (let's say) you're 8 damage shy of 50% health.

I would say, some characters are stronger than other to punish holds, but man, if you get a cool read, do you DESTROY random holds tho !!
It's part of DoA and I kinda like it that way tbh. Now I know that in a close match when we're both at low life the one with the full meter has way too much advantage over me. Just see me move and mash Break Hold, enough damage to kill me kiss your round goodbye. How do you bait that? Just jab him and wait? You're low life so if you give your opponent momentum it could spell your doom. Especially if you're against someone with good openings or just a good low to close the deal. That's an unnecessary annoying situation imo. And kinda unfair too.

Same with Break Blow if it's anything like T7, and so far all the intel go that way, good luck trying to attack someone with that kind of power. I really hope they can be held.

And fatal rush so far is pretty stupid as well. Too much power. And if we can't even hold the first one? I mean yea it's a high and all but really? Having to hold low is a good solution now? I main Mila and I can already tell you why you should be careful about that ! If I hi counter throw your low hold you're in a world of hurt now or even if I 7[K] your ass down you'll see your life bar disappear real fast.

Also the side step thing is just one move? Are they gonna remove all options in side steps beside that? That's a pretty hard Mila nerf here. SS into takedown was very handy in some situations. And yea very abusable against people too lazy to learn the MU !

Is the game gonna be present at gamescom tho??? When will we know more?

 

[DestructionBomb]

I think you guys are missing the point. Its not that players are getting blown up by holds. Its the mere fact that even after playing the neutral game and winning that the game continues to play RPS. Even in DoA5 with all its setups, the RPS function can still be way too heavy at times.

Specifically jab stuns are pretty dangerous. Stagger escaping has no escape from that. True RPS does come from this one quite a bit

In a way, there are stuns that prevent stagger escaping such as crumple and feint stuns. I find these to be normal as without these stuns stagger escaping would be quite powerful. Doing a much slower move for the reward on eliminating stagger into a guaranteed launch is pretty fair.

 

[Brute]

I think you guys are missing the point. Its not that players are getting blown up by holds. Its the mere fact that even after playing the neutral game and winning that the game continues to play RPS.

So you have to keep playing RPS in a game based around RPS, but each time you are successful the opponent loses points and has a much lower chance of winning the next bout?

Horrifying.

Even in DoA5 with all its setups, the RPS function can still be way too heavy at times.

Oh, I hate having to read my opponent. I wish I could just take a break!

 

[Raansu]

So you have to keep playing RPS in a game based around RPS, but each time you are successful the opponent loses points and has a much lower chance of winning the next bout?

Horrifying.


Oh, I hate having to read my opponent. I wish I could just take a break!

Having to constantly play RPS is why DoA4 was a bad game. Every fighter has RPS, but every fighter has risk and rewards. The less RPS in the stun the better. RPS should be primarily played in the neutral game.

 

[Brute]

Having to constantly play RPS is why DoA4 was a bad game. Every fighter has RPS, but every fighter has risk and rewards. The less RPS in the stun the better. RPS should be primarily played in the neutral game.

The whole point of stun is to skew subsequent RPS exchanges in favor of the attacker, rewarding consecutive victories. If you don't feel confident about outsmarting your opponent, you can opt for stun-launch to reduce that chain with lower risk. Many people don't do this because they like prolonging that advantageous state.

DOA4 was bad because it didn't properly balance the risk of each option with its reward vs its chance of success, not because it fundamentally emphasized active exchanges between both players.

 

[Hajin']

Ok you can hold Fatal Rush with a regular hold. I'm relieved now, I can wait for more info in peace.

Edit : It's at 8:34

 

[Argentus]

My take.


I hated having supers and meter put I to doa with 5, and really hate they're going further with it in 6. 3d fighters should not have meters and supers, imo.


Also, as anyone familiar with me would already know, I fucking DESPISE any time my controls are taken away from me, so the constant freeze frame closeups would get real old , real fast, especially since I've been dealing with that same b.s. in gundam versus


There's literally no legitimate reason to force sidesteps to be an auto attack. As a Mila player, sidestep into multiple options is one of my BNB's.


However , at the end of the day, still gonna buy it and simply adjust to whatever changes because I'm here for the characters I like, same as any other fighter, so the actual gameplay is kinda whatever to me. Already know I hate the direction they're going with it


So I'm still hoping they fix the number 1 mistake of doa5, and bring back the sleek aesthetics and full environment stages and character theme songs and arcade mode endings and real alternate costumes, not story mode shit.



Also, why is there blood? Shoulda just kept that skin engine and figured out how to get bruises to show up from hits or something. The guy after itagaki focuses way too hard on making doa be like every other fighting game except fuckin doa.



On doa4. I wasn't as much of a gamer back then, but I enjoyed it. Never got to play doa3 with other people, but id played that and doa2u constantly, the latter online
Loved doa4, though admittedly mostly due to the sheer style the game had. I won a lot, mostly doing holds with Leon.

 

[Shirataki Tsume]

Yeah. I never liked meter and super moves in 3D fighting games because the 3D fighting game genre is supposed to show more realism in combat. Meters, super moves/ultra combos and whatnot should've just stayed in 2D fighting games because 2D fighters have more supernatural elements in it like fireball projectiles and devastating final blows or...whatever that is...

I would really like it if DOA6's game play would have a lot reference from DOA3. Since DOA3 seems to be the pinnacle of the series, so I thought it would be a good idea to go in that direction again for DOA6 while adding new mechanics to make the game feel new but still keep the personality and soul of DOA. DOA5 had some of the stuff brought back from DOA3 that weren't in DOA4, but they also kept some of the stuff from DOA4 that a lot of competitive players didn't like, and I thought they would just take them out entirely in DOA6.

 

[Fantailler]

So you have to keep playing RPS in a game based around RPS, but each time you are successful the opponent loses points and has a much lower chance of winning the next bout?

Horrifying.


Oh, I hate having to read my opponent. I wish I could just take a break!

The whole point of stun is to skew subsequent RPS exchanges in favor of the attacker, rewarding consecutive victories. If you don't feel confident about outsmarting your opponent, you can opt for stun-launch to reduce that chain with lower risk. Many people don't do this because they like prolonging that advantageous state.

DOA4 was bad because it didn't properly balance the risk of each option with its reward vs its chance of success, not because it fundamentally emphasized active exchanges between both players.

The whole point of stun is to skew subsequent RPS exchanges in favor of the attacker, rewarding consecutive victories. If you don't feel confident about outsmarting your opponent, you can opt for stun-launch to reduce that chain with lower risk. Many people don't do this because they like prolonging that advantageous state.

DOA4 was bad because it didn't properly balance the risk of each option with its reward vs its chance of success, not because it fundamentally emphasized active exchanges between both players.

RPS is the most basic layer of almost any fighting game but there are ways around.

In DOA you're strictly forced and reduced to it. If you want to say "screw it i'll play by my rules", well good luck because you can't,except by using random cards.

The best way to play DOA is "almost" not to play it.Stun being its identity and its primary flaw.

That's exactly why spacing became the most viable solution.Proper answer to a problem stated as a fact.

Which leads me to my point.Adding or removing tools to fix it will generate even more problems.It's a never ending cycle,it's an unorthodox choice, game over.

Once the stun game starts,I know exactly what i'm up for and i accept it.But i can't stand not having more tools to prevent properly this situation (overpresent btw)with defensive tools that are staple in a FG and normalized frame data.That's why TN needs to emphasize on cleaning the neutral.I'm stongly advocating for pushblock and crouch dash fuzzy guard. FPB>FreePushBlock

Either that or replace Holds out of Stun only,with mobility Holds:

-backdash/dodge/forward crouch dash>abare/guard (fuzzy guard).Closer to counter hit heavy frame advantage.Abare/dodge/guard/spacing.Basic,simple.Well maybe not backdash it's already too late for spacing, more related to neutral and regular hit/pushblock.

-or give me the ability to hold break a counter hold with the same input on reaction(except counter hold +).Tight window no damage only frame advantage/resetting to neutral, equivalent to a throwbreak.Still DOA but adding One situation more traditionnal.

I could develop this idea but my post is already too long...and's it's potentially making the problem worse again...

Real frame advantage on counter hit almost doesn't exist in DOA, stun is a coulda shoulda woulda situation for both players. When the followup should be the best educated choice to minimize/augment the risk/reward in defense and offense.

Counter hit=Combo starter/heavy frame advantage>forced nitaku,without yolo Hold in the equation.

I don't want it to be VF nor Tekken but the answer lies in the heart of battle... I meant in these games

 

[KnacKrover]

From my view for break hold and fatal rush
let's talk about break hold first, I'd highly concert that break hold would work the same as offensive hold personally, even it's new features instead to bring CB back, so I'll look forward if they anything change from early building.

Now about Fatal Rush. I do personally looks forward to try this mechanic although,it's made for newbie or beginners for people for don't know shit about this game. FYI it's still early building.

 

[Raansu]

The whole point of stun is to skew subsequent RPS exchanges in favor of the attacker, rewarding consecutive victories. If you don't feel confident about outsmarting your opponent, you can opt for stun-launch to reduce that chain with lower risk. Many people don't do this because they like prolonging that advantageous state.

DOA4 was bad because it didn't properly balance the risk of each option with its reward vs its chance of success, not because it fundamentally emphasized active exchanges between both players.

In the neutral game sure. But in the stun game you're not outsmarting your opponent, you're just guessing. All you can do is try and bait/predict if they will hold or not at certain points, but at the end of the day you're still just guessing. Its pure RPS. DoA5 just does a better job rewarding you for making bigger risks, e.g. Hitomi 6f+p and follow up with a 46k. Unsafe on block, but it tracks and if it hits I get a full blown BT combo into a juggle. In DoA4 if that move existed that risk would have been pointless since you can just stagger and turn around immediately. Situations like that where RPS exists, but still rewards is what makes a fighter a good game. The game needs more setups like that where it completely removes the hold from the equation.

Ok you can hold Fatal Rush with a regular hold. I'm relieved now, I can wait for more info in peace.

Edit : It's at 8:34

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-was-playable-at-e3.7078/#post-371002

Master was using it with different characters. It seems that some characters will have normal critical stuns in between the fatal stuns which gives a window to hold, but if you watch him using FR with Kasumi its all fatal stuns.

 

[KasumiLover]

In the neutral game sure. But in the stun game you're not outsmarting your opponent, you're just guessing. All you can do is try and bait/predict if they will hold or not at certain points, but at the end of the day you're still just guessing. Its pure RPS. DoA5 just does a better job rewarding you for making bigger risks, e.g. Hitomi 6f+p and follow up with a 46k. Unsafe on block, but it tracks and if it hits I get a full blown BT combo into a juggle. In DoA4 if that move existed that risk would have been pointless since you can just stagger and turn around immediately. Situations like that where RPS exists, but still rewards is what makes a fighter a good game. The game needs more setups like that where it completely removes the hold from the equation.



http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/doa6-was-playable-at-e3.7078/#post-371002

Master was using it with different characters. It seems that some characters will have normal critical stuns in between the fatal stuns which gives a window to hold, but if you watch him using FR with Kasumi its all fatal stuns.

That's still a thing tho, in DOA5 there's sit down stuns that guarantees attacks like if Kasumi does 4H+K she gets a free 6KK

 

[Raansu]

That's still a thing tho, in DOA5 there's sit down stuns that guarantees attacks like if Kasumi does 4H+K she gets a free 6KK

Like I said, doa5 does a better job with risk/reward. Its not where I'd like it to be, but it was obviously a huge step from what we had in the game before and I'd like to se even more situations like that in 6 where hold is removed.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Oh, I hate having to read my opponent. I wish I could just take a break!

No, you keep getting bad reads and losing but keep yelling "no fair, do-over!" until you finally land a hold. At which point, I get no "do-over" and have to accept the damage. It's illogical.

 

[NewWestFan]

No, you keep getting bad reads and losing but keep yelling "no fair, do-over!" until you finally land a hold. At which point, I get no "do-over" and have to accept the damage. It's illogical.

This is all irrelevant if you're playing better and reliably winning the neutral. If you're losing matches because someone is landing wild holds on you you have bigger problems going on than the hold mechanics. If someone can beat you simply with that mechanic alone who is making the bad reads? I understand why a lot of ya'll hate the ability to hold during stun but if it wasnt in the game it would just be a really dumbed down Tekken clone with worse movement game.

 

[Raansu]

This is all irrelevant if you're playing better and reliably winning the neutral. If you're losing matches because someone is landing wild holds on you you have bigger problems going on than the hold mechanics. If someone can beat you simply with that mechanic alone who is making the bad reads? I understand why a lot of ya'll hate the ability to hold during stun but if it wasnt in the game it would just be a really dumbed down Tekken clone with worse movement game.

No it wouldn't. Tekken amd doa play nothing alike on a base level.

 

[grap3fruitman]

If someone can beat you simply with that mechanic alone who is making the bad reads?

The characters only have so many moves and even fewer that are ever actually viable in a match. What else am I supposed to do? Start hacking the game and inserting my own moves? Randomly mash out really slow and bad moves? There's no good solution in the current system.

This is all irrelevant if you're playing better and reliably winning the neutral.

How the fuck am I supposed to win the neutral when you keep getting do-overs?! There is zero incentive to attack in this game.

 

[Argentus]

I see no negative to adding limitations to the hold system

I mean I can make a list if you want.

But first and foremost, the main appeal of the holds, imo are that it forces people to learn how to play better, rather than just mindlessly attacking. Restrict the holds and all you get is people mashing attacks trying to mash out whatever combo they spent all their time in the lab practicing instead of learning how to deal with opponents.

People just tunnel vision on "guaranteed setups" and holds help temper that bad habit.


The main arguments against holds I've seen are

1) "Its Random" which sure if you never learned to read opponents, or are just super predictablr yourself, it could seem like that I guess.

And 2) "You can just mash holds ", which, look. If you're getting beat by someone just mashing or throwing out holds willy nilly, that means you were just throwing out the same attacks over and over without paying attention to your opponent , and honestly you deserve to eat a hold for that.

I assume this is referring to Holds. Which aren't really a reward for making mistakes as much as they are a punishment for being too predictable with your combos.

Exactly.

The "mistake" is focusing more on your combo execution instead of the opponent in front of you, and holds punish that

How come there's no punishment for being out-played and getting hit and stunned?

There is, it's called "make your hits count".

Because I successfully outplayed you and hit you? I need some reward for playing well, otherwise, why play

The reward IS that you hit him. Why do you need more of a reward than that?

You're asking: "why should i be punished if i outsmarted my oponent?" and i'm giving you a simple answer, if everytime you get a stun you get held, you're not outsmarting anyone. Because if you're really outplaying your oponent, then you'll not get blown by holds.

Thisssss.

If you're really getting held that much, then you're just being outplayed.

 

[grap3fruitman]

1) "Its Random" which sure if you never learned to read opponents, or are just super predictablr yourself, it could seem like that I guess.

the main appeal of the holds, imo are that it forces people to learn how to play better, rather than just mindlessly attacking.

These statements are completely contradictory. So which is it? Mashing random attacks is the way you're supposed to play or not? How are you supposed to "learn to read" someone when the other advice to players is to be as random as possible? How can someone be random and predictable at the same time?

There is, it's called "make your hits count".

What the hell does this mean? Because of the glaring issues in DOA, no hits count. That's the issue we're discussing.

It sounds like there are a lot of people around that want DOA to be Land one critical poke>100% guaranteed combo>Launcher>Juggle>Hopefully wallsplat

So... DOA 1, DOA ++, DOA 2, and DOA 3?