Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

[Fantailler]

I thought about something...

Supposing the frame data of holds remains the same, 18 active frames, and supposing the fatal rush is cancelable it means that every time you land a counter hit your followup will be a fatal rush>launcher or a throw ?

So fatal rush will be a free critical burst hard to react to and hard to hold ? plus it's 19~20 on startup bypassing a hold by itself? With nerfed slow escape ?

This could be a nightmare...Let's face it, why would I throw it on neutral if it's highly punishable on block ?

 

[Raansu]

I thought about something...

Supposing the frame data of holds remains the same, 18 active frames, and supposing the fatal rush is cancelable it means that every time you land a counter hit your followup will be a fatal rush>launcher or a throw ?

So fatal rush will be a free critical burst hard to react to and hard to hold ? plus it's 19~20 on startup bypassing a hold by itself? With nerfed slow escape ?

This could be a nightmare...Let's face it, why would I throw it on neutral if it's highly punishable on block ?

Holds have 0i frames and are active for 18 frames. FR always starts as a high and is a slow move. The launcher will be free if you hit the FR (based on what we know right now at least), but the FR itself won't be free. Can still be held even after a counter hit.

 

[NewWestFan]

Holds have 0i frames and are active for 18 frames. FR always starts as a high and is a slow move. The launcher will be free if you hit the FR (based on what we know right now at least), but the FR itself won't be free. Can still be held even after a counter hit.

So you can hold the opening strike of FR if you read it? That would remove all of my skepticism about the mechanic right there lol

 

[Sotherius]

So you can hold the opening strike of FR if you read it? That would remove all of my skepticism about the mechanic right there lol

i don't think you can hold it, but since is a high, you can low hold to avoid and punish it instead.

 

[Fantailler]

Holds have 0i frames and are active for 18 frames. FR always starts as a high and is a slow move. The launcher will be free if you hit the FR (based on what we know right now at least), but the FR itself won't be free. Can still be held even after a counter hit.

The FR won't be free to land ofc but coupled with a throw or a mid launcher either punch or a kick it will be a nightmare to defend against it. Especially with nerfed SE.Your only option is more yolo hold again ?

I mean after a counter hit.

Land hit>FR>launcher/mid launcher(k or p) /high counter throw ?

 

[Sotherius]

The FR won't be free to land ofc but coupled with a throw or a mid launcher either punch or a kick it will be a nightmare to defend against it. Especially with nerfed SE.Your only option is more yolo hold again ?

FR seems reactable to be honest.

 

[NewWestFan]

FR seems reactable to be honest.

I did notice it makes a very distinct sound when it's activated before it hits right?

 

[ryu_highabusa]

Holds have been a part of this game since the original back in 96'.

Don't lie. Since when could you hold from stun in DOA1? In DOA1 you ate the stun. Stuns were scary. Like every other video game.

DOA++ changed it so you could hold from stun but made it a 6-point system with crazy inputs.

That was the compromise. They could've tied it to a meter but they went that route instead. Itagaki didn't like meters iirc

Every game since has been dumbing it down even more until we hit rock bottom with DOA4.

The punishment for getting caught is being forced to either read the strikes coming at you and react, recognizing the pattern (Both of those result in you holding out), or eat the damage.

So absolutely nothing changed from neutral stance? Thanks for proving my point.

Why does there need to be a punishment beyond that?

Because I successfully outplayed you and hit you? I need some reward for playing well, otherwise, why play?

Yeah fair point. Definitely not going to argue with any of that lmao. I don't feel like it would be DOA anymore without being able to hold out of stun though I guess I've just been dealing with it for too long? We still don't see eye to eye on the "Reward" part though. I don't disagree with the design aspect of: Get stale and predictable with your combos, get held and lose your turn.

Sorry, I'm irritable and I get especially stupid passionate about dumb gaming crap. :/

 

[human013]

There's literally one mechanic that deal's with holds and its a throw. Guard impacts in SC are not the same as holds. Also, I don't care about SC, DoA plays nothing SC. This conversation is about doa and doa alone.

No one said that SC and DOA plays the same nor are their mechanics the same. The conversation was about the "deeper level of thought" a meter brings in. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Fantailler]

FR seems reactable to be honest.

And if you react to a throw ?It remains a guess i believe.reacting to a single strike is hard af, you ask me to react to the second hit or third of a string,i can manage. That's why you focus on single hit launchers, mid p/k preferably to avoid that stupid 2in1 low hold.That or delay your move with a dash to be just above 18 frames of startup.

Once you react you react, being able to stop your high hold reaction because you saw a throw seems unlikely to me.Should be be the other way around since a throw is faster than a FR.

 

[NewWestFan]

Don't lie. Since when could you hold from stun in DOA1? In DOA1 you ate the stun. Stuns were scary. Like every other video game.

DOA++ changed it so you could hold from stun but made it a 6-point system with crazy inputs.

That was the compromise. They could've tied it to a meter but they went that route instead. Itagaki didn't like meters iirc

Every game since has been dumbing it down even more until we hit rock bottom with DOA4.


So absolutely nothing changed from neutral stance? Thanks for proving my point.


Because I successfully outplayed you and hit you? I need some reward for playing well, otherwise, why play?

Yeah fair point. Definitely not going to argue with any of that lmao. I don't feel like it would be DOA anymore without being able to hold out of stun though I guess I've just been dealing with it for too long? We still don't see eye to eye on the "Reward" part though. I don't disagree with the design aspect of: Get stale and predictable with your combos, get held and lose your turn.

 

[KasumiLover]

And if you react to a throw ?It remains a guess i believe.reacting to a single strike is hard af, you ask me to react to the second hit or third of a string,i can manage. That's why you focus on single hit launchers, mid p/k preferably to avoid that stupid 2in1 low hold.That or delay your move with a dash to be just above 18 frames of startup.

Once you react you react, being able to stop your high hold reaction because you saw a throw seems unlikely to me.Should be be the other way around since a throw is faster than a FR.

You double posted >.>

 

[ryu_highabusa]

You double posted >.>

wtf??

 

[TheDragonAwakens]

Just to let you guys be clearer, double posting (posting more than one post consecutively) is not allowed on the site, but the mods might give a pass since some of you are new, but still its better if you quickly merge your posts.

 

[Fantailler]

My bad I read the thread backward, I thought that the comment i quoted was posted after mine

 

[Sotherius]

Because I successfully outplayed you and hit you? I need some reward for playing well, otherwise, why play?

Well, if you hit, you have the advantage already. There are natural combos that can't be held. If the oponent is put into critical stun, then you have more chances of landing the hit than he has of correctly reacting/reading what you're going to do. And if you're into guaranteed damage, you don't have to play the stun game, you can just launch the enemy and go for guaranteed damage then. Playing the stun game increases your damage potential but also increases the risks, but even then, you're still at advantage. And that is not considering that you can use stage hazards for more guaranteed damage, or go for different types of stuns (limbo, sitdown, and so on). This also brings you the oportunity to make setups where you would get more damage than if you simply completed a combo or did a juggle, since you have the option of doing resets, or throw mixups.

And if you react to a throw ?It remains a guess i believe

Considering that low holds also avoid throws, there isn't much guessing if the options of your oponent is FR or a throw, if he correctly reads your low hold trying to avoid a FR or a throw, then he outplayed you.

Though i would preffer if the first hit of FR was holdable like regular high strikes, it is not that dangerous of a move. Also, considering how slow it is to come out, i doubt it will be used much like a CB, unless the oponent puts you in some really deep stun state.

 

[KasumiLover]

Tbh I wouldn't mind Fatal Rushes without meter if they were very punishable on block. Like in T7 rage arts are very deadly and are armoured but they're VERY punishable on block so if they were like -12 or more I could excuse them

 

[Sotherius]

Tbh I wouldn't mind Fatal Rushes without meter if they were very punishable on block. Like in T7 rage arts are very deadly and are armoured but they're VERY punishable on block so if they were like -12 or more I could excuse them

But they are highly punishable on block. Fatal Rushes and Break Blows are super unsafe moves to do from the footage.

 

[NewWestFan]

Well, if you hit, you have the advantage already. There are natural combos that can't be held. If the oponent is put into critical stun, then you have more chances of landing the hit than he has of correctly reacting/reading what you're going to do. And if you're into guaranteed damage, you don't have to play the stun game, you can just launch the enemy and go for guaranteed damage then. Playing the stun game increases your damage potential but also increases the risks, but even then, you're still at advantage. And that is not considering that you can use stage hazards for more guaranteed damage, or go for different types of stuns (limbo, sitdown, and so on). This also brings you the oportunity to make setups where you would get more damage than if you simply completed a combo or did a juggle, since you have the option of doing resets, or throw mixups.

Thank you much more eloquently put than what I said. This ^

Tbh I wouldn't mind Fatal Rushes without meter if they were very punishable on block. Like in T7 rage arts are very deadly and are armoured but they're VERY punishable on block so if they were like -12 or more I could excuse them

So they have slow start-up/are reactable, are not safe on block, and are beaten out by lows and always start high. To me Fatal Rush is fine at the moment though as Sotherius said I really wish/hope the first strike is susceptible to normal/advanced holds if you've got a good read on when your opponents likes to try and throw them out. That feels like DOA to me. So does low holding out to punish though lmao. Overall my issues with Fatal Rush have been quieted and they haven't even started to really balance things yet (That'll come after EVO).

 

[KasumiLover]

But they are highly punishable on block. Fatal Rushes and Break Blows are super unsafe moves to do from the footage.

Ohh? Then how come no one seems to really be punishing them? XD it's probably because they're new players playing and they don't realize that throw punishment can be used