Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

[human013]

Like it or not, DoA6 has a meter, its not going anywhere. I see no harm in making conversations to have it act in more ways than just being a glorified power move. Adding mechanics like the hold to it adds a deeper level of thought process to holds as well as keeping the meter from reaching max too often. More things that use meter, the less you'll see supers used.

As I have said before, having the meter is not the issue. The issue is wanting to change the entire game's core mechanics to require meter. Compare Soulcalibur 5 to every other SC iteration. What deeper level of thought did the SC5 bring in with its meter and guard impact which required meter? Keeping track of a meter is not deep.

Throws are the only direct counter, but you can...

Do a different strike than the type of hold the enemy is doing, you can delay strings, you can use different types of stuns, you can launch.

I guess counter was the wrong word to use but there are things like free canceling and other mechanics to deal with holds, such as those listed above.

 

[NewWestFan]

As I have said before, having the meter is not the issue. The issue is wanting to change the entire game's core mechanics to require meter. Compare Soulcalibur 5 to every other SC iteration. What deeper level of thought did the SC5 bring in with its meter and guard impact which required meter? Keeping track of a meter is not deep.

This is an extremely fair point. In an earlier post I said that stagnation is death to fighting games, and I still believe that to be true. However the change needs to be implemented correctly... Namco did not implement change correctly in SCV Lmfao Ho my god they didn't implement it correctly Hahahaha That game is an absolute train wreck from start to finish.

When it comes to DOA adding a meter mechanic, I don't outright think this is a bad change, and really I don't think their ideas for it are bad themselves. They just need to alter how the meter mechanics function a bit and they can definitely add some depth to the Meta of DOA without subtracting from the quality gameplay we expect from the franchise.

Break Blows need to basically be supers and treated as such. The simple input is fine but they should take the armor off and make them fully snuffable if you throw them out raw, make them essentially a once a round (Maybe even match) thing by slowing the meter build rate significantly. Slowing the meter build rate down that much would also make Break Holds a special occurrence as well and they could get away with making them take half a meter which would force you to choose between defense or offense. Now obviously they have the meter build rate jacked up to try and keep escape routes for FA open but... As I've said before... The training wheels (Fatal Stun) need to be pulled off from FA. It's already a combo where you only have to mash one button and can finish it with Break Blow (Possibly even into a stage hazard) for very okay damage. It doesn't need to be any more new player friendly than that.

 

[Radiance]

Namco did not implement change correctly in SCV Lmfao Ho my god they didn't implement it correctly Hahahaha That game is an absolute train wreck from start to finish.
.

I disagree, unless we're specifically talking about Viola... It wasn't overpowering and either gave characters options to alter combo routes, damage, or alter the properties of an attack (making moves guard break, or safe). The controversial change was making GI cost meter which I thought was fine because they implemented the just guard, and then there were supers which essentially just replaced critical finishes.

But to each their own =/

 

[NewWestFan]

The controversial change was making GI cost meter

But to each their own =/

Yeah that's fair. You got me! lmao It was just my opinion on the game obviously. That and the removal of so many veteran characters. Even if their movesets were still there it didn't feel right.

 

[Normal]

Yeah that's fair. You got me! lmao It was just my opinion on the game obviously. That and the removal of so many veteran characters. Even if their movesets were still there it didn't feel right.

Zasalamel no presence in SC5 was sad.

This is an extremely fair point. In an earlier post I said that stagnation is death to fighting games, and I still believe that to be true. However the change needs to be implemented correctly... Namco did not implement change correctly in SCV Lmfao Ho my god they didn't implement it correctly Hahahaha That game is an absolute train wreck from start to finish.

When it comes to DOA adding a meter mechanic, I don't outright think this is a bad change, and really I don't think their ideas for it are bad themselves. They just need to alter how the meter mechanics function a bit and they can definitely add some depth to the Meta of DOA without subtracting from the quality gameplay we expect from the franchise.

Break Blows need to basically be supers and treated as such. The simple input is fine but they should take the armor off and make them fully snuffable if you throw them out raw, make them essentially a once a round (Maybe even match) thing by slowing the meter build rate significantly. Slowing the meter build rate down that much would also make Break Holds a special occurrence as well and they could get away with making them take half a meter which would force you to choose between defense or offense. Now obviously they have the meter build rate jacked up to try and keep escape routes for FA open but... As I've said before... The training wheels (Fatal Stun) need to be pulled off from FA. It's already a combo where you only have to mash one button and can finish it with Break Blow (Possibly even into a stage hazard) for very okay damage. It doesn't need to be any more new player friendly than that.

General problem with game design here.
It does not suffice to improve only by addition of fatal rush to use meter.
Aspects of fatal rush would need change too.
At E3 fatal rush is like combo string, but has extra property of fatal stun. If only remove fatal stun, it behaves same as any other combo string as it may knock back if stun too high, or launch. If no fatal stun though, it is just a strange combo string. If fatal stun decides that each "S" in fatal rush will not be catched by hold, it can become problem to use only one "S" and free cancel to launch for free combo. Like DoA5 CB but no requirements of previous stun. If play like this, opponent become forced to waste meter on break hold, or more often opponent has no meter for break hold. It is considerably DoA5 but worse.

Idea to remedy this is fatal rush "S" = full combo instead of "SSSS", and it uses 1/2 meter. It may free cancel after S1, S2, or S3, but if full meter and S4 connect then auto-use break blow.

"S" full fatal rush = 1/2 gauge
Break Blow after Fatal Rush S4 = 1/2 gauge
Break Blow without Fatal Rush = 1 whole gauge
Break Hold = 1/2 gauge
Sidestep blow = 1/2 gauge
[----------1/2----------][----------2/2----------]

this way it cost meter to achieve fatal stun, as DoA5 CB cost requirement of previous stuns. Regardless of how many "S" attack connect, it will cost 1/2 meter. This offers player choice of risking full fatal rush combo completion against potential break hold, or waste meter with to reap fatal stun for own creative combo, but also no over-usage of fatal stun as current E3 meterless single "S" press.

With more usage for meter, break blow may be seen less often.

It is difficult to know health values from E3, but many technique and combo seem too much damage. It may only be as DoA4 normal health setting instead of DoA5=DoA4Largest.
Yet many easy fatal rush combo setup in dark alley stage with spectator dangerzone create 60+% damage. This might be 80+% or even 100% if played by hardcore player knowing mechanics and combos rather than "SSSS", or idea that break blow may combo after launch. Too huge damage.
If meter is spent as suggested, there will be reduction in damage to be fair.

Fatal rush is not necessary to be "new player" mechanic. If combo string delay is returned to DoA4 style, this is already default easy new player combos. It is not mind-destroying for player to press instead of .
DoA combos are not difficult enough that is needed for new player.

@DestructionBomb has offered new interview link from Shimbori https://wccftech.com/e3-2018-dead-or-alive-6-interview/
It seems fatal rush is intended to beat sidestep as fatal rush is always tracking. I wonder how valuable it is if fatal rush attacks are not very fast, as sidestep blow is quick enough to get around jab. I do not understand Shimbori's intent.

 

[Raansu]

As I have said before, having the meter is not the issue. The issue is wanting to change the entire game's core mechanics to require meter. Compare Soulcalibur 5 to every other SC iteration. What deeper level of thought did the SC5 bring in with its meter and guard impact which required meter? Keeping track of a meter is not deep.


I guess counter was the wrong word to use but there are things like free canceling and other mechanics to deal with holds, such as those listed above.

I wouldn't know as I don't play SC. This isn't about SC either, this is about DoA. I see no negative to adding limitations to the hold system. The argument that its a core mechanic means nothing to me and isn't a counter argument imo. The system will still be there, just in a more limited capacity. Parries could stay off the meter as parries don't do a lot of damage.

 

[human013]

I wouldn't know as I don't play SC. This isn't about SC either, this is about DoA. I see no negative to adding limitations to the hold system. The argument that its a core mechanic means nothing to me and isn't a counter argument imo. The system will still be there, just in a more limited capacity. Parries could stay off the meter as parries don't do a lot of damage.

You claim that adding a meter to a core mechanic will make people think on a deeper level, but when another game does exactly that, add meter that is, it doesn't matter because it isn't DOA. You were talking about the change in people's thinking created from implementing meters to core mechanics.

The argument is that there are already many mechanics that are available to deal with holds. It's a core mechanic. The game is built around it meaning there are ways to deal with it. Simple as that.

I'll just drop this.

 

[Raansu]

You claim that adding a meter to a core mechanic will make people think on a deeper level, but when another game does exactly that, add meter that is, it doesn't matter because it isn't DOA. You were talking about the change in people's thinking created from implementing meters to core mechanics.

The argument is that there are already many mechanics that are available to deal with holds. It's a core mechanic. The game is built around it meaning there are ways to deal with it. Simple as that.

I'll just drop this.

There's literally one mechanic that deal's with holds and its a throw. Guard impacts in SC are not the same as holds. Also, I don't care about SC, DoA plays nothing SC. This conversation is about doa and doa alone.

 

[Normal]

There's literally one mechanic that deal's with holds and its a throw. Guard impacts in SC are not the same as holds. Also, I don't care about SC, DoA plays nothing SC. This conversation is about doa and doa alone.

There is another mechanic that deal's with holds.










It is gitgud.

 

[Keylay]

I think we need to see competitive play before we can fully judge the breaker gauge. My theory is that players will try to keep their breaker gauge as long as possible until necessary. If you don't have breaker gauge and you get put into a critical stun, you'll have to deal with the possibility of a fatal rush into a launcher. So you may be inclined to hold high or low but your opponent knowing this can go for mid attacks. If you have breaker gauge, then you know you have a chance of escaping a fatal rush. And having a full breaker gauge can be a threat to your opponent since you can use Power Breaks to win in certain situations. Say your opponent does a guard breaking attack that leaves them at advantage, you can throw out a Power break after to beat their next attack if it's high/mid. Or the start of the round and you're fighting an opponent with faster pokes, they might not be inclined to attack because you have an attack that can beat out there high/mid jab. Players might more often go for low attacks/pokes when their opponent has a full gauge. It's hard to judge what aspects of the game need to be changed until we see some competitive play. I remember before MvC3 came out, people were thinking there would be too many timeouts then the game came out and that was false. Blazblue cross tag battle came out earlier this month and I everyone was saying that matches end too early but they last longer after you learn how to use the game mechanics. I assume Team Ninja put some thought into these mechanics but they're probably still adjusting it.

 

[grap3fruitman]

There is another mechanic that deal's with holds.
It is gitgud.

There are no good options, that's the point.

 

[Fantailler]

I don't see how the meter is supposed to address doa's first problem.

Rewarding mistakes...

 

[NewWestFan]

I don't see how the meter is supposed to address doa's first problem.

Rewarding mistakes...

I assume this is referring to Holds. Which aren't really a reward for making mistakes as much as they are a punishment for being too predictable with your combos.

If you aren't referring to Holds I apologize!

 

[Fantailler]

I assume this is referring to Holds. Which aren't really a reward for making mistakes as much as they are a punishment for being too predictable with your combos.

If you aren't referring to Holds I apologize!

I am referring to holds,the new implemented tools don't seem to adress it at all.It's still foggy in my head.But it looks like "half assed" solutions for defense and offense.

"Let's use that it could work you Know"

Same philosophy as holds.They're making the same mistakes.

 

[Raansu]

There is another mechanic that deal's with holds.

It is gitgud.

See, the old me would go all in on this comment, and I still apologize profusely to the veteran members of this community for my behaviour years ago. I'm trying my best not be like old me, so with that said, any conversations I've had with you in the recent threads are over.

 

[Shirataki Tsume]

See, the old me would go all in on this comment, and I still apologize profusely to the veteran members of this community for my behaviour years ago. I'm trying my best not be like old me, so with that said, any conversations I've had with you in the recent threads are over.

He's already banned, so he can't reply anymore.

 

[ryu_highabusa]

Which aren't really a reward for making mistakes as much as they are a punishment for being too predictable with your combos.

How come there's no punishment for being out-played and getting hit and stunned?

"Rewarding mistakes..." is a fantastic way of phrasing what DOA does. Thank you for putting that in writing, Fantailler.

They're making the same mistakes.

Yup. Yup. Yup.

I'm only so active on this forum because I'm excited at the potential opportunity for Team Ninja to finally fix the game. If DOA6 comes out and plays as it is now, I will have absolutely zero interest, and wouldn't even bother downloading a F2P version. If I want to play the same botched design I already have the older games. I'm don't know that I want to pay more money for the same garbage.

 

[NewWestFan]

See, the old me would go all in on this comment, and I still apologize profusely to the veteran members of this community for my behaviour years ago. I'm trying my best not be like old me, so with that said, any conversations I've had with you in the recent threads are over.

Pretty sure he's gone due to not being able to conduct himself civilly in discussions from people who don't agree with him.

How come there's no punishment for being out-played and getting hit and stunned?

Holds have been a part of this game since the original back in 96'. The punishment for getting caught is being forced to either read the strikes coming at you and react, recognizing the pattern (Both of those result in you holding out), or eat the damage. Why does there need to be a punishment beyond that? I get that this is the only fighter where combo damage isn't gauranteed most of the time even if your inputs are 100% accurate and well timed, but Holds are a major part of DOA's identity and if you're playing the game you have to respect them. As I said wild holds with no thought or nothing but panic behind them are punished with more damage added onto the combo.

 

[Raansu]

He's already banned, so he can't reply anymore.

When did that happen? Oh well, kinda feel bad now.

 

[Shirataki Tsume]

When did that happen? Oh well, kinda feel bad now.

About a few hours ago after his last reply to fu11m3ta11 at the DOA6 violence discussion.