Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes

[Russian-chiropractic19]

I'll take NG,once I get an arcade stick so I can actually perform the inputs with the speed and precise I need then I think I'm going to switch mainly to VF5 or Tekken,maybe some 2D fighters.after I played a couple matches online and realised most of my damage was coming from random holds I just had to stop.i want something that will force me to get better.

 

[David Gregg]

realised most of my damage was coming from random holds accurately reading my opponents I just had to stop.

fixed. You're clearly a better player than you give yourself credit for. But I do agree they need to tone down the hold damage.

 

[Brute]

fixed. You're clearly a better player than you give yourself credit for. But I do agree they need to tone down the hold damage.

Too bad it's being increased.
I don't want holds gone. I just want their recovery frames to be large and their damage low (with the exception of expert holds).

 

[Tenryuga]

Too bad it's being increased.
I don't want holds gone. I just want their recovery frames to be large and their damage low (with the exception of expert holds).

We both love that hi counter throw damage. You from your izuna's and myself from my Oboro, 236T and 1T.

 

[crapoZK]

We both love that hi counter throw damage. You from your izuna's and myself from my Oboro, 236T and 1T.

Problem, Kasumi's Oboro is getting COMPLETELY nerfed in 5U, The range is shorter and slower, and the damage has been toned down. According to the Japanese and Grunt Dude.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

Problem, Kasumi's Oboro is getting COMPLETELY nerfed in 5U, The rang is shorter, and the damage has been toned down. According to the Japanese and Grunt Dude.

Hasn't Kasumi's 33T been made i12, and 68 damage (instead of i17 and 67 damage in 1.03)?

 

[J.D.E.]

Problem, Kasumi's Oboro is getting COMPLETELY nerfed in 5U, The rang is shorter, and the damage has been toned down. According to the Japanese and Grunt Dude.

The damage nerf won't hurt her. She's still gonna be "Kasumi". Just means she now has to work for her damage a little bit more than what she has to now (even with her oboro).

Hasn't Kasumi's 33T been made i12, and 68 damage (instead of i17 and 67 damage in 1.03)?

Yeah.

Not to derail the topic, I wonder how high the stun system is now in general.

 

[Tenryuga]

Hasn't Kasumi's 33T been made i12, and 68 damage (instead of i17 and 67 damage in 1.03)?

12i 65 damage last I heard. The range nerf only means that her 8T actually has some use now. Before it was useless because Oboro covered as much range as you needed it to for throwing.

 

[Tulkas]

I honestly would prefer they be reset to Catch Throws. That isn't going to happen I imagine.

Why do you prefer OHs to be changed to CTs?

 

[Tulkas]

Increasing hold damage is not a good idea. I honestly don't believe it is needed IMO.

In fact I think reducing even more critical holds damage with be nice because it could tone down stun game a few. I like stun game a lot, but the fact also is a lot of people dislike it, so I think stun game could be tuned down a few in order to please two sides of coin. I explain a way to do this next:

I think could be fairer if critical holds also deliver just 50% of damage. To strike a stunned opp is very risky and sort of unfair. Strikes take very few damage comparing to holds and striking a stunned opp just delivers 50% of damage.CHs' rewards is not only damage these inflict but also the damage defender avoids to take. So CHs' reward seems justified even with reduced damage in 5U. It will promote of attackers to strike stunned opponents.

 

[Raansu]

Why do you prefer OHs to be changed to CTs?

Probably because CT's are considered throws so even though a normal throw will still beat it out, you just get a counter throw property since CT's are still considered throws unlike OH's which are considered counters so when a throw beats out a OH you get the hi-counter throw revision for the throw.

 

[TRI Mike]

To strike a stunned opp is very risky and sort of unfair. Strikes take very few damage comparing to holds and striking a stunned opp just delivers 50% of damage.

That's a very weird statement coming from you.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Why do you prefer OHs to be changed to CTs?

Probably because CT's are considered throws so even though a normal throw will still beat it out, you just get a counter throw property since CT's are still considered throws unlike OH's which are considered counters so when a throw beats out a OH you get the hi-counter throw revision for the throw.

Primarily for the recovery of the CT/OH is my reason. See, throws are fast in relation to attacks. Due to their speed, their triangle property is applied to the entire animation. Throws also have the smallest of active frames (2) and are generally around the 28 frame recovery range. That is, if you were to attack during their recovery you get a hi-counter throw, and you get counter-throw if you throw during their recovery. Holds are very much the same way where they have their hi-counter property applied to the whole animation. Throwing gives them Hi-counter during their recovery. Holds also are the fastest part of the triangle for 0 frames and their active window is the largest of the triangle, with the smallest of the recovery.

However, if you perform an offensive hold, the offensive hold is vulnerable to a hi-counter throw throughout its duration. Offensive holds at their fastest are at the speed of a mid-tier speed attack. So they're very susceptible to the even faster

Punishing an attack in recovery with an attack or a throw also nets Normal damage, regardless. Attacks have at most a faster startup than OHs, are generally with longer active window (3-5), and about the same recovery.

Additionally, ask anyone who sees an Offensive Hold for the first time and they will tell you it looks like a Throw over looking like a Parry.

The huge recovery window, low active window, and medium startup make me feel the "attack" shouldn't be hi-counter throw punishable at all of it's animation. It feels more intuitive that it be treated like a throw. It's counter throw if you hit at any point of the OH, Hi-counter if it lands against a hold, and normal against an attack.

I mean I can see both sides of the see-saw honestly, and the main reason I'm okay with it is giving a damage boost to landing a slow "throw" against a faster attack. However, OHs were how they were in DOA1 when the game started so I can't argue that it doesn't belong to be the way of CTs. CTs are what they were converted to for DOA2 and DOA3, and they were "restored" to OHs back in DOA4. It should be noted though that everyone in DOA1 had a 10-13 frame offensive hold though that gave advantage. Somethign I'd personaly love to see returned to Bass as it would give him SOMETHING to deal with the heavy attack game.

 

[MaxwellMouse]

I have been away from this site for a long while now and am wondering how DOA5U is shaping up. How much of the stuff in the first post is being addressed? I would love for all of it but honestly I doubt much of any of it.

 

[Tulkas]

Lastly, the life increase. I would have to play it out to see if 300 is just as slow in Ultimate as it was in 1.02/1.03a. However, my default gut reaction is that it is too much health. I honestly would still prefer 240 in 1.03a but I'm able to deal with the Normal 270 damage just fine.

240 is really exciting! Zero boring! 240!

Do we still want "critical bursts" back to their E3 2012 levels?

IMO CB shoudn't be that easy. CB reward should supose a important risk, specially because CB guarantees power blow and power launcher in adition to the most damaging juggles.

That's a very weird statement coming from you.

LOL! My friend, apreaciate you very much.

Primarily for the recovery of the CT/OH is my reason. See, throws are fast in relation to attacks. Due to their speed, their triangle property is applied to the entire animation. Throws also have the smallest of active frames (2) and are generally around the 28 frame recovery range. That is, if you were to attack during their recovery you get a hi-counter throw, and you get counter-throw if you throw during their recovery. Holds are very much the same way where they have their hi-counter property applied to the whole animation. Throwing gives them Hi-counter during their recovery. Holds also are the fastest part of the triangle for 0 frames and their active window is the largest of the triangle, with the smallest of the recovery.

However, if you perform an offensive hold, the offensive hold is vulnerable to a hi-counter throw throughout its duration. Offensive holds at their fastest are at the speed of a mid-tier speed attack. So they're very susceptible to the even faster

Punishing an attack in recovery with an attack or a throw also nets Normal damage, regardless. Attacks have at most a faster startup than OHs, are generally with longer active window (3-5), and about the same recovery.

Additionally, ask anyone who sees an Offensive Hold for the first time and they will tell you it looks like a Throw over looking like a Parry.

The huge recovery window, low active window, and medium startup make me feel the "attack" shouldn't be hi-counter throw punishable at all of it's animation. It feels more intuitive that it be treated like a throw. It's counter throw if you hit at any point of the OH, Hi-counter if it lands against a hold, and normal against an attack.

I mean I can see both sides of the see-saw honestly, and the main reason I'm okay with it is giving a damage boost to landing a slow "throw" against a faster attack. However, OHs were how they were in DOA1 when the game started so I can't argue that it doesn't belong to be the way of CTs. CTs are what they were converted to for DOA2 and DOA3, and they were "restored" to OHs back in DOA4. It should be noted though that everyone in DOA1 had a 10-13 frame offensive hold though that gave advantage. Somethign I'd personaly love to see returned to Bass as it would give him SOMETHING to deal with the heavy attack game.

Hm... I understand but I have some sort of concerns...

1. Do CTs go against triangle system because strikes are suposed to beat throws? Is it un-intuitive from TS point of view?
2. So, would CT be some sort of un-beatable move because in its active frames they beat strikes, holds and throws?

 

[Matt Ponton]

Hm... I understand but I have some sort of concerns...

1. Do CTs go against triangle system because strikes are suposed to beat throws? Is it un-intuitive from TS point of view?
2. So, would CT be some sort of un-beatable move because in its active frames they beat strikes, holds and throws?

CT loses to throw.

 

[Alex_MaGanda]

I would prefer there be less of them, and they became catch throws. I feel too many characters have them. It should be a very character-specific thing.

On dragon gunner, it makes sense. On Bayman's moves, it makes sense. For Bass to have one or two, it makes sense.

For everyone and their mother outside of that circle, it does not make sense. And Zack sure as hell does not need one. He's fast enough with his mid without giving him extra pressure.

What about Tina dude tf she needs catch grabs you didnt mention her

 

[crapoZK]

Rachel SHOULDN'T have OHs or CTs. They gave them to her like she wasn't OP enough. Stupid idea to give her them.

 

[MasterHavik]

So I used to think TN balancing was buff the ninjas and nerf everyone else....well let me fix that...it's nerf everyone else, take away things that made the game good, and give tools they took away to new characters i.e. Momiji and Rachel.

 

[Codemaster92163]

What tools did they take away?