Bushido Blade?
What would you change about DOA?
- Thread starter Darrell
- Start date
Bushido Blade?
Okay, so excluding guarding and throws as options entirely, we still have:
Attack High
Attack Mid Kick
Attack Mid Punch
Attack Low
Each of which you can attempt to intercept with a faster and/or crush attack or counter with a hold, corresponding to each attack type. Now if we go further and exclude ANY INTERCEPTS on your part (meaning you playing an entire match with no strikes, throws or guards, relying entirely on defensive holds), you still only have a 25% chance of "guessing" correctly (this also assumes your enemy will ONLY use strikes, and assumes both of your timing will be spot on, with limited free-canceling, etc).
What system of math are you using?
yeah that,was gonna say Samurai Showdown but I knew that wasn't right
I remember when that game first came out I was young and tried to convince my mom to buy it for me, but she wouldn't because she thought it was too violent. XD
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It's not about math, its about tools, or lack there of and how every single situation in doa4 put you into another 50/50 random BS. There was never a reward, every action led to another 50/50 situation, it was constantly random...and dear God I am not going through with this argument with you again. I forgot you like to pull shit out of your ass and never have a clue on what you're talking about when it comes to fighting games.
Bushido Blade, indeed.
But flashy=/juggles. Flashy is the ability to send someone flying 50 ft backwards, knock someone into a sign and have it fall over causing train collisions, and extremely elaborate punches and kicks that don't actually need juggles to be in the game.
Juggles, meanwhile, are actually kinda unsightly. Ugly looking. Some of it in certain games goes to obscene levels. Have you ever seen a movie where someone attacked the person's horizontally-flat falling body with a bunch of punches on the way down? No? That's because of how it looks. But it's such a trend and an euphemism for skill within the FGC that they'll never let it go. It is certainly not the best visual quality of the game, and only gets seen as such because of the fetishistic* nature of learning to play a fighting game.
*Not in the sexual sense, as needs to be noted when talking about DOA. More along the lines of the Marxist sense, the withering of one's ability to experience reality as a process of one's work.
Ad hominem in response to a basic claim interrogation. Always charming.
You people think too much. XD
d3v
Well-Known Member
It basically means that you're forced to play a guessing game with each and every hit.
EDIT: I find it funny that Bushido Blade is being mentioned because that game is basically the extreme end of what the FGC enjoys - a guaranteed kill on hit. And even if it didn't kill, the attacker got so much of an advantage that the other guy just might be dead anyway. This emphasizes the neutral game in the same way that a combo heavy game emphasizes the neutral game.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It's just a phrase for the game being random. There is nothing mathematical about it.
If I put you in a wall bounce in DoA4, I gain nothing from it. It's just another guessing game. I'm literally just guessing by throwing out a mix up and hoping you don't catch it. If I do 6f+p with Hitomi on hi counter throw, I get an unblockable 46p but you can still hold out of it. So I'm literally just guessing if you are going to counter the 46p or if you are going to counter low to avoid the high punch. I already punished you with a hi counter throw, why am I being forced into another random situation? It's the entire reason everyone was afraid to attack in DoA4, everything reset, every tool was another random mixup.
That is what random means. In DoA5 if I catch you with something, I'm rewarded for it with guaranteed damage, not punished by being put into another random BS situation.
But the guessing game is not a 50/50 chance of success/failure. Is drastically lower than 25% (50/50 is 50%, in case we needed that reminder). This means at a bare minimum, "guessing" will only statistically succeed 25% of the time (central limit theorum). You can claim "it's not about math" all you want, but the game is coded in math, it applies to the rules of math, and math demonstrates that at even the most simplistic level there has never been a 50/50 guessing game. Hell, even if the match was literally just RPS, it would be around 33%, and I think we all agree even 4 had a little bit more to it than that.
I understand it's "just a phrase," but it's misleading. I'd gauge pure guessing in reality can only constitute around 16% of success at most.
The thing is you're BOTH guessing. Which is why it's 50/50. Math has nothing to do with it. You're thinking too much. XD
I'm not. Sure, to a degree you always are in fighting games, but most of your thought-process should be devoted to strategy rather than random guessing. DOA4 doesn't reward "guessing" as much as people like to claim it does.
edit: This is wildly off-topic for a DOA5 thread. I'm just gonna be quiet now.
Yeah, I don't know why Bushido Blade actually got in. But the funny thing about that game was at least it, for better or worse, kept it basically honest. The same strategic success/failure came through consistently; almost every decision was essentially strategic. Now, there wasn't necessarily a lot to that strategy, but the executions were essentially meaningful.
In DOA? Well, I think it has more meaningful decisions in what you're terming the neutral game and what I would consider the strategic game. But it has large gaps in it that are, essentially, minimally strategic at best. ("Do I end with a slightly higher damaging combo or one with slightly better wake-up possibilities?" is hardly as deep as the neutral game or the stun game)
That's a total non sequitur, though. Prisoner's Dillemma still involves math, and the premise is both people guessing. You don't get much more simple than that.
The point is no matter what you do in DOA4 you're at a guessing game rather you're on offense, or defense. There aren't any guaranteed. The complaint here is that you're never rewarded for anything. The person being punished isn't exactly being punished since even after being floored you have an advantage.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
No he just likes doing that strawman BS to make it sound like he knows what he's talking about when he's mostly just talking out of his ass.
It's a simple concept. Everything you do in DoA4 resets. Nothing is guaranteed, every choice is a random choice. You either understand that or you don't, simple as that.
Is it, now? Were that argument line to hold water, all those people telling me about imminent damnation were very much on point.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
*rolls eyes* we got another Brute here that can't understand basic concepts.
OSTCarmine
Active Member
lol, DOA4 certainly has a bad rep if even now it causes strife within the community...
I understand most of what has been brought up and would have to say - im pretty ok with the game mechanics as is. Coming off DOA4 i have only really played with Ayane in 5 even though i can play a mean Busa, Lee, Kasumi, Tina, Leifang and Helena. i just have not devoted the time to re-learn any of those characters because my Ayane play, even after all this time, is not nearly as good as I would like. Im learning all over again, and it is FUN. I thank DOA5 for that and i hope that the next game takes things far beyond where they are now. im pretty sure it will, judging by how well received the majority of changes in 5 are.
OldsmoBuick
Member
I would change the crouch defense attacks. Holding 1 defends against low attacks and avoids high attacks, but pressing P or K results in your character -- in most cases --starting a standing attack that often results in your character being hit by an attack that would whiff. I find it to be unintuitive to hold 1 in anticipation of an attack, then move over to holding 2, so that I will stay in crouch when I attack -- especially with something as simple as a crouching jab. Either swap the 2P attacks with the 1P attacks or make it so that when crouching, you perform crouching attacks and not the moves that you would do from a standing position. If they want to get truly innovative, they could allow for the re-mapping of attacks . I'm not referring to some crazy, cheap way of making it easier to do tougher maneuvers. It would only involve moving directional inputs, such as, 1 instead of 4. The buttons needed to do the desired move would stay the same. This is DOA5, not Tekken. 2 free steps, it doesn't crouch.