What recovery (in frames) makes a move "safe" in DOA5?

[JannLeeVsLaw]

Ok, so as far as I know a "safe move" is - a move which during recovery cannot be punished by another strike. From my understanding the fastest move in DOA5 is 9 frames (+ 2 of hit detection) so generally moves with -10 recovery or less are considered safe, correct?

But the fastest throws in DOA5 are 4-5 frames and during an opponents recovery can't be escaped. I've been looking through the frame data of most of the characters and it seems that except for the basic jab and a few other moves the vast majority of moves are throw punishable on block (more than -4). I was quite surprised by this since doesn't that mean that 90% of strikes in DOA5 are unsafe/ throw punishable on block? Could someone please clarify this for me.

I only realised this now since I still have the habit of using ALL throws the "Tekken way", as offensive holds, which gets my ass seriously flattened very often and so I end up not using them much.

 

[P1naatt1ke1tt0]

doesn't that mean that 90% of strikes in DOA5 are unsafe/ throw punishable on block? Could someone please clarify this for me.

Most of those unsafe moves are part of a string. The strikes in a string execute without recovery in between, so a move doesn't become unsafe unless you cancel the string or it's the final strike of a string. If you cancel the string, the opponent usually can't react fast enough to throw punish, since she fears that you'll continue the string with a delay.

 

[JannLeeVsLaw]

Most of those unsafe moves are part of a string. The strikes in a string execute without recovery in between, so a move doesn't become unsafe unless you cancel the string or it's the final strike of a string. If you cancel the string, the opponent usually can't react fast enough to throw punish, since she fears that you'll continue the string with a delay.

Really? So if I have a move, for simplicity sake lets say which is -5 on block, if I do any string with that move (eg. ) that means the first punch is no longer -5 on block? If so, then how can I find out whether the string is interruptable or not, I thought that that was the point of on guard frame data?

 

[P1naatt1ke1tt0]

Really? So if I have a move, for simplicity sake lets say which is -5 on block, if I do any string with that move (eg. ) that means the first punch is no longer -5 on block? If so, then how can I find out whether the string is interruptable or not, I thought that that was the point of on guard frame data?

Yes that's what it means. I don't know the frames for in-string moves. Maybe Mr. Wah would know. If you don't continue the string, then it's -5. A good way to interrupt strings is a crushing move, if you know the next move in the string is a high/low.

 

[Sam Sultan]

If someone decides to free cancel their string and begin a new string then during the free cancel they are vulnerable for the amount of frames that it shows in training mode, however since they can also just choose to keep the string going or delaying the string it is very difficult to tell whether you can punish or not unless you know for sure that they are going to free cancel and thus punish as soon as they try to free cancel(which is called "reading your opponent" BTW). So in general it is very difficult to throw punish someone during a free cancel but if you want to go for the punish then my advise would be to go for a strike punish and not for a throw punish.
However since there are slow moves and fast moves, slow moves can be strike punished even if they are delayed as long as your strike is faster than your opponent's strike. Take for example Hayate's 6p *delay* p if you know your opponent is going to delay his move then you can punish him with a fast strike.

 

[Matt Ponton]

The disadvantage isn't applied until the string extension input window has passed. It's very difficult to visually tell when that window has expired and the recovery begins.

 

[JannLeeVsLaw]

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful info. I'm really starting to understand this stuff now.
I have another example:

Let's say I use Jann Lee's Sonic Blow:
The first jab starts up in 10 frames (+ 2 hit), and following uppercut in 14 frames (+2 hit). Because the second strike starts up in 14 frames doesn't this theoretically mean that (after blocking the first jab) it can be interrupted by any strike with less than 14 start up i.e most characters basic jab? Or am I missing something here, because I rarely see canned strings being interrupted in DOA tournaments.

 

[Matt Ponton]

No because you're in block stun. Block stun isn't a set value (that I know of) and isn't provided anywhere that I know. It's different for each attack.

 

[JannLeeVsLaw]

Sure that makes sense, thanks a lot. I found out how to actually calculate a block stun for each move from this great article. I'll give an example using Jann Lee's jab:

1) Take the frames on guard: -1
2) Add the hit and recovery frames: 2 + 13 = 15
3) Subtract the result (add if it is "+" on guard) with the frames on guard: 15 -1 = 14
So this strike causes a block stun of 14 frames (from the first hit frame), and of course one frame after that (-1) Jann Lee can attack again.

 

[dawnbringer]

Ok, so as far as I know a "safe move" is - a move which during recovery cannot be punished by another strike. From my understanding the fastest move in DOA5 is 9 frames (+ 2 of hit detection) so generally moves with -10 recovery or less are considered safe, correct?

"Safe" move is a move that cannot be punished. "Safe on block" means not punishable after blocked hit, and that's what usually people mean by "safe". Safety is defined by combination of move properties, such as recovery, state character recovers in, guard stun, and amount of pushback on block.

But the fastest throws in DOA5 are 4-5 frames and during an opponents recovery can't be escaped.

Fastest throws are neutral throw (), low throw (), back throw (), low back throw.(). Only neutral throw is escapable. It is also escapable during strike recovery.

Let's assume opponent's both neutral, low throw, and back throw are all 5 frames. If move recovers in crouching state then -6 can be punished, thus the move is unsafe. If move recovers standing -6 guarantees throw attempt, but can be escaped for no damage, so it's still relatively safe. For character with 5 frame normal throws usually fastest standing command throw is 7 frames, that makes any move with -8 unsafe. If move recovers back turned and -6, it is unsafe.

I've been looking through the frame data of most of the characters and it seems that except for the basic jab and a few other moves the vast majority of moves are throw punishable on block (more than -4). I was quite surprised by this since doesn't that mean that 90% of strikes in DOA5 are unsafe/ throw punishable on block? Could someone please clarify this for me.

There are moves that create enough distance on block to not be punishable. However those are super-rare, and generally there's very little pushback on block in the game. A lot of strings are throw punishable, if finished. For some characters it's not even 90%, it's 95+%.

 

[JannLeeVsLaw]

Thanks for that dawnbringer, I hadn't realised that even during recovery throws can still be escaped. The main thing I was trying to figure out is if there's so many moves that are "unsafe", how does one prevent getting punished after each move/string? From what others have said it's; string delay and free cancelling that makes it difficult for an opponent to predict and punish. Are there any other factors?

If I look at the Tekken system, which I am more familiar with, these two factors are simply not enough to stop an opponent from punishing you. For example, if you delay a string unless it is a jab based string more often than not you can get interrupted by a basic jab since it's the fastest move in the game; also if you end a string/combo early than you do have an element of surprise over your opponent but this usually only stops you from getting punished, it doesn't allow you to use that element of surprise to continue a new offensive string/combo.

This to me seems quite similar to the DOA system (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm wondering what makes things work different in DOA?

 

[Sam Sultan]

In DOA4 90% of the strings where punishable and thus leaving you with no other choice but to free cancel if you don't want to get punished. In DOA5 they made characters more safe so you can actually finish a string and start another one although some characters are still as unsafe as they where in DOA4 like Hayabusa. You can interrupt a delayed move by using the jab which is also the fastest move in this game however if the delayed move is an high crush then obviously that is not going to work.
So to conclude this al for you:
Mostly if you finish a string you are going to be punishable however this depends on the character you are using(not to mention skill and knowledge of your opponent) . Some characters are very unsafe meaning that most of their string(are punishable(Hayabusa)) others are very safe take Pai for instance i think she has only a 1 or 2 moves which are punishable. If you want to be safe most of the time when you finish a string you need to pick a safe character if you think you don't need to be that safe then obviously you can go for a more unsafe character so it depends on your fighting style which character to choose a safe or a unsafe one.
You being an Jan Lee player i would say you you have picked a more unsafe character because i think he has got only 5 moves which are safe , , ,,, there could be other moves but from what i remember these are the only safe moves of Jan Lee. So if you want to play safe with Jan Lee these are the strings to use and to mix up with.

 

[JannLeeVsLaw]

Thanks Sam Sultan this is all really helpful stuff. Really great to see a community as helpful as all you guys, makes newbs like me feel more comfortable posting here

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

From my understanding the fastest move in DOA5 is 9 frames

Alpha-152 has a backturned kick that's 8 frames. I don't know what the input is though, sorry.

 

[Red Reaper]

Sure that makes sense, thanks a lot. I found out how to actually calculate a block stun for each move from this great article. I'll give an example using Jann Lee's jab:

1) Take the frames on guard: -1
2) Add the hit and recovery frames: 2 + 13 = 15
3) Subtract the result (add if it is "+" on guard) with the frames on guard: 15 -1 = 14
So this strike causes a block stun of 14 frames (from the first hit frame), and of course one frame after that (-1) Jann Lee can attack again.

No idea what you said here but I treat it like "kancel advantage" in other fighting games.

Like when you kancel a move into a special in 2D fighters. Kancel advantage shortens the window of interruptable frames.

For example: A move might have a +6 kancel advantage. If then next hit is 14 frames then it kan't be interrupted by a 10 frame move. However, if you delay your hit 3 frames or more, then your 14 frame hit becomes a 17 frame move and your opponent kan then interrupt you.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

[snip]

Damn, what's up with the Mortal Kombat spelling there?

 

[Red Reaper]

Damn, what's up with the Mortal Kombat spelling there?

I'm an MK player. What kan I say? lol..

Even they find it weird though.. I used to get posts about it all the time, but now most people are already used to it.

 

[Ayanes80085Lover]

Hello, people ! I need help to understand perfectly how safe can be translated in numbers, please.


Safe against strikes, unbreakable throws and breakable throws : -4 or above

Safe against strikes and unbreakable throws BUT punishable by breakable throws : -5 or below

Safe against strikes BUT Punishable by unbreakable throws and breakable throws : -10 or below

Safe against nothing : -11 or below

Is it correct ?

I think it is correct but I'm confused when I want to make differences for unsafe for grappler throw and unsafe for non-grappler throw... I need help please...

 

[FlamingMuffin]

Safe against everything: -3
Safe against everything except Alpha's low throw (for attacks that end in crouch) = -4
Safe against non-grapplers breakable throws (i.e: grappler's neutral throw can land + their low throws) = -5
Safe against unbreakable throws (but neutral will hit, as well as all low throws) = -6
Safe against non-grapplers unbreakable throws (but grapplers can now guarantee a throw) = -7

Anything more negative (-8 and beyond) allows guaranteed throws and eventually strikes to everyone (except Alpha who needs -11 for an unbreakable throw).

 

[Ayanes80085Lover]

Thank you a lot !!!

I think I can organize things differently to have a clearer understanding (in my mind lol) I might use groups (of characters) and treat differently low throws and standing throws

For example :

for grapplers :
safe against everything
safe against strike, unbreakable throws but breakable throws
safe against strike but unbreakable throws and breakable throws
safe against nothing (unsafe)
I must include the low throws somewhere and it will be good I think.

for Alpha-152 :

for non-grappler and non-Alpha-152 characters :