Pictured Mind
Well-Known Member
Funny we're on that topic, because I was talking to a few people about her bs sidestep yesterday and still have no idea what to do against it.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
As with all things in this game, you have to guess/read it properly. The chances of doing that successfully against this move are drastically lower than they are with 99% of other moves you'll be faced with, however, which is what gives people trouble.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
Good thing is that if you figure out how to beat that move you realize that many MRs players on ranked matches are pretty worthless without that move. Serves them right!!
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
I wonder if some characters have better strings than others for tracking. I wonder if it's a timing thing or what, but for Hitomi, strings involving 4P seems to miss even though the move tracks, and you can forget about retracking moves (like any string involving 6K)
Do you mean something different by the term 'naturally tracking strings'? I may be missing something.
Last edited:
They do.
Ok, so this is what I found out:
Marie Rose can only evade tracking moves that would only be half-tracking in VF. In this case, Christie's 4P. But it doesn't evade full circular attacks, e.g Kasumi's H+K that would be unavailable to sidestep in other 3D fighting game.
Marie Rose can only evade tracking moves that would only be half-tracking in VF. In this case, Christie's 4P. But it doesn't evade full circular attacks, e.g Kasumi's H+K that would be unavailable to sidestep in other 3D fighting game.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
Ah, ok, so when you say 'half tracking', you mean moves that can only be sidestepped in one direction? or is it more that the moves hitbox is smaller/tighter?
For FSD evades generally a half/full circular attack will catch the evade only if the hitbox of the attack connects with the character hurt box. "Tracking" does not matter against an FSD attack. Tracking is only an attack property set to beat out the command sidestep option. Tracking can be applied to even linear attacks to defeat a side step option. For example, Bass' is a linear attack because it's an overhead but it also tracks so it will beat out a sidestep. His is a full circular attack but it starts on one side to the other so evading it with an FSD evade is dependent on stance and timing.
In DOA3.1 FSD evades also could mess with strings. You could auto-redirect mid string against an FSD'ing opponent after the first 11 frames of the free step animation. Those first 11 frames wouldn't allow for an attack to track to them unless the attack happened to have a hitbox collide with them quite literally. If you attacked someone doing an FSD attack then they or you could be stuck off-axis for their wake-up kick or if you didn't let the string that hit them reset. It was pretty complicated and we never had the number of competitive players to really dissect the system. That's the best we could do with what we had. I believe it was @virtuaPAI who found out the frame count necessary.
Of course, FSD'ing closer to the opponent means you had a shorter distance to travel than if you were at mid or long range due to the circumference of the circle. It could really be used as an offensive tool. As much as people abused Jann Lee's he'd only really be rewarded if it was guarded or you were back to the wall. In open space he never really got anything. However or provided a deep lift stun that pushed him forward, depending on stance he could use that initial stance to free step around to the opponent's back before they could hold and guarantee a back turned juggle.
Similar to Tina's on ice where they could buffer to free step you and react to a hold and get or if you didn't hold or they walked far enough behind you so you couldn't then they'd get a free back turned juggle.
There's some messed up strats in DOA3 that many people don't realize because they only played the game at a superficial level or only had the "opportunity" to play DOA4.
is a linear attack because it's an overhead but it also tracks so it will beat out a sidestep. His is a full circular attack but it starts on one side to the other so evading it with an FSD evade is dependent on stance and timing.In DOA3.1 FSD evades also could mess with strings. You could auto-redirect mid string against an FSD'ing opponent after the first 11 frames of the free step animation. Those first 11 frames wouldn't allow for an attack to track to them unless the attack happened to have a hitbox collide with them quite literally. If you attacked someone doing an FSD attack then they or you could be stuck off-axis for their wake-up kick or if you didn't let the string that hit them reset. It was pretty complicated and we never had the number of competitive players to really dissect the system. That's the best we could do with what we had. I believe it was @virtuaPAI who found out the frame count necessary.
Of course, FSD'ing closer to the opponent means you had a shorter distance to travel than if you were at mid or long range due to the circumference of the circle. It could really be used as an offensive tool. As much as people abused Jann Lee's
he'd only really be rewarded if it was guarded or you were back to the wall. In open space he never really got anything. However or provided a deep lift stun that pushed him forward, depending on stance he could use that initial stance to free step around to the opponent's back before they could hold and guarantee a back turned juggle.Similar to Tina's
on ice where they could buffer to free step you and react to a hold and get or if you didn't hold or they walked far enough behind you so you couldn't then they'd get a free back turned juggle.There's some messed up strats in DOA3 that many people don't realize because they only played the game at a superficial level or only had the "opportunity" to play DOA4.
Black Dragon
Active Member
So basically, it's DOA5's Hayate's cartwheel?
HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
I get the feeling that a lot of people don't seem to understand that a character having to make a read isn't terrible or make them bad in this game. Let's look at Marie's Minuet that everyone claims is a busted tool. Usually when a player goes for an evasive move it means they have a read on your attack patterns and are using Minuet correctly in order to disrupt your flow and offense. Whenever you make a read in any fighting game it's because you were able to recognize what your opponent was doing and punish it accordingly. Many people also under-rate side step and say it sucks but don't seem to fully understand how it works and why it's a very good tool.
First let's look at how to stop Marie's FSD move. There are a couple ways to blow up this move, now remember you have to READ your opponent. Just throwing out a move without any reasoning behind it will get you killed. Let's look at Brad's 6P6P since that's my main. The Marie player I notice keeps doing 6PP into Minuet and I try to retaliate with 6PP but the Minuet gets around me everytime and it's frustrating me. So I look at what the player is doing and instead use a non tracking - tracking move to blow her up.
Let's look at another scenario. Let's say this time the Marie player hits you with 9P on NH and she's now at +1 and Minuet's you for throwing out Kasumi's PP6P which makes you whiff. You realize that pattern and decide to try something different. Instead of throwing out an attack you decide to use a throw instead to shut down her Minuet. Now the player has to switch things up with you which would result in the player either going for a trade with Jab, Crushing the Jab of the Kasumi player, or using her stance parry.
The last and final scenario is where you're both at R1F and she Minuet's you at the beginning of the round, now again. This requires a read on your end to determine what you should do to stop it. There's two options, the first is throwing her which may be a risky option but at the same time more reasonable considering she has a parry that can stop your offense right away as well. The other option is waiting it out and seeing if the Marie player does her FSD attack, if so you can wait it out and punish accordingly by throw punishing her for it.
Now that I've discussed Marie's Minuet let's look at the SS in this game. The Side Step mechanic in this game works similar to how it does in VF in that you can side step linear moves and punish them accordingly depending on the move you side stepped or be at + frames. Now there are times where a linear move will hit someone who is Side Stepping and the reason for that is because the person who Sode Stepped, got hit during the recovery frames of their initial SS. This usually happens either because the move the opponent used becomes active during the recovery of your SS or they anticipated the SS and delayed their move accordingly to blow up your SS on recovery. Example would be Kokoro's 6PPP string as it has a good amount of delay on it for her to do this.
The other option to stop SS is to use a tracking move. Now most of you all know that most tracking moves are generally unsafe. An example of that would be Pai's 4K. Most people under-rate tracking moves saying there needs to be more etc but on the real, a tracking move for the most part is meant to be used as a read, not an attack you can just throw out for good measure.
Anyways, this is a long read but next time y'all talk about Matchups in this game be sure to actually know what your tools can do to stop certain moves and or set ups etc so you can better explain your reasonings behind these Matchup numbers people keep throwing out. Whether it requires a read or not, if you can use it to stop the opponent's momentum then it's completely viable in high level play.
First let's look at how to stop Marie's FSD move. There are a couple ways to blow up this move, now remember you have to READ your opponent. Just throwing out a move without any reasoning behind it will get you killed. Let's look at Brad's 6P6P since that's my main. The Marie player I notice keeps doing 6PP into Minuet and I try to retaliate with 6PP but the Minuet gets around me everytime and it's frustrating me. So I look at what the player is doing and instead use a non tracking - tracking move to blow her up.
Let's look at another scenario. Let's say this time the Marie player hits you with 9P on NH and she's now at +1 and Minuet's you for throwing out Kasumi's PP6P which makes you whiff. You realize that pattern and decide to try something different. Instead of throwing out an attack you decide to use a throw instead to shut down her Minuet. Now the player has to switch things up with you which would result in the player either going for a trade with Jab, Crushing the Jab of the Kasumi player, or using her stance parry.
The last and final scenario is where you're both at R1F and she Minuet's you at the beginning of the round, now again. This requires a read on your end to determine what you should do to stop it. There's two options, the first is throwing her which may be a risky option but at the same time more reasonable considering she has a parry that can stop your offense right away as well. The other option is waiting it out and seeing if the Marie player does her FSD attack, if so you can wait it out and punish accordingly by throw punishing her for it.
Now that I've discussed Marie's Minuet let's look at the SS in this game. The Side Step mechanic in this game works similar to how it does in VF in that you can side step linear moves and punish them accordingly depending on the move you side stepped or be at + frames. Now there are times where a linear move will hit someone who is Side Stepping and the reason for that is because the person who Sode Stepped, got hit during the recovery frames of their initial SS. This usually happens either because the move the opponent used becomes active during the recovery of your SS or they anticipated the SS and delayed their move accordingly to blow up your SS on recovery. Example would be Kokoro's 6PPP string as it has a good amount of delay on it for her to do this.
The other option to stop SS is to use a tracking move. Now most of you all know that most tracking moves are generally unsafe. An example of that would be Pai's 4K. Most people under-rate tracking moves saying there needs to be more etc but on the real, a tracking move for the most part is meant to be used as a read, not an attack you can just throw out for good measure.
Anyways, this is a long read but next time y'all talk about Matchups in this game be sure to actually know what your tools can do to stop certain moves and or set ups etc so you can better explain your reasonings behind these Matchup numbers people keep throwing out. Whether it requires a read or not, if you can use it to stop the opponent's momentum then it's completely viable in high level play.
I tend to throw out Minuet after an unsafe move with no read necessary and still profit like how people use her parry in the same situation Because nobody throw punishes (seriously, players seem top only wasnt to throw punish certain characters instead of unsafe moves). A combination of opponent forward movement and the ss itself makes it stupid easy to dodge with.
HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
Like I said, many throw it out when she's unsafe and some do get away with it if a move isn't a single strike tracking move like 4P from Hayate or a mid string tracking move like Kasumi's 6PK they will hit you out of it everytime. Don't believe me test it yourself. Do something like P+K or 6PP on block and see if your Minuet stuffs a tracking or mid string tracking move. Again Minuet is a good tool but it all depends on if the player can read you properly to punish accordingly. Sadly most don't so they get blown up for it and call the move stupid. But you definitely have lots of ways around it. Here's another example. I use Minuet at R1F and the Rig player for instance just Jabs, I am not at plus for that more so because the recovery of a jab is extremely low and so they can now retaliate with whatever they need to, to blow me up for throwing it out. So honestly it's not dumb just figure it out. Nothing in this game is a game-breaking tool that needs some massive tuning to make it "fair" because fact of the matter is, everybody has tools to combat what needs to be combatted in this game. Sure some may have a harder time than others (Eliot Ein Kokoro) but they still have ways people just need to sit down and actually find them. It's sad that I'm writing this but most of the people in this community like Hajin and Cow said need to really look at things differently if they want to fully dissect a MU. I know this game has't been out for too too long and people are still finding things even now because honestly on a lifespan approach this game is still new 2 years doesn't amount to galores of tech that quickly.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
@HoodsXx I generally agree with you on most points, but the real annoying thing about that minuet move is that it can stuff some tracking moves too and that SUCKS (not saying it's broken though). I use hitomi mostly and I tend to throw out 4P and it's variants when I know people are going to sidestep, but those variants don't work sometimes even though 4p is a straight up tracking move.
Luckily, Hitomi has a LOT of tracking moves that do work however, but I know other characters struggle with that (looking at you Kokoro), I just think that the minuet should be broken by ALL tracking moves, not just some of them.
That still doesn't ppt down the fact that it is ass move that can avoid tracking until effectively late into the ss, moves a distance that allows somebody mid string to walk right past her (and depending on the string a player can't recover and block in time), puts her BT if she doesn't p+k, jumps highs, and can't be thrown out of unless she does absolutely nothing. R1F is one thing but as a reactionary dodge you get almost no time to recover from a strike to really do anything about it.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
Gotcha, but I think someone here already mentioned that every character has at least one move that will stop that sidestep. I guess you will have to find it for your character of choice. It sucks, but if MR is spamming that sidestep, you have to spam your one or two moves that will crush that sidestep.
Saber
Well-Known Member
I'm just gonna repeat what a lot of people have already said.
Tracking moves are meant to stuff the COMMAND sidestep. Marie Rose's Minuet is not a sidestep, it's an FSD move. Same with Christie's Jakeiho (and I don't see anyone complaining about that). If you think you can just randomly pul out a tracking move to stop any sidestep, then you don't understand how a sidestep is supposed to work.
I'm guessing a lot of you don't play VF, where it implements half and full-circular moves. This extra layer prevents their SS from being the braindead tool that is DOA5U's. You have to pay attention to the opponent's feet to know which direction the attack is, and sidestep accordingly, not like in DOA where the direction of your attack matters shit.
Example: Hitomi.
6H+K stuffs Minuet everytime because it's a full circular move.
2P+K is a half-circular move. Minuet can evade it depending on the direction of the attack.
Some characters are just unlucky they don't have a full circular move in their moveset to deal with Minuet, and that's FINE. It just means Marie Rose has the advantage in the matchup. It's like how Kokoro and Eliot don't have any mid-low tracking strike to deal with Jakeiho.
Minuet isn't broken. It's recovery frames are much longer than the command SS, and if Minuet avoids your attack, all you have to do is STOP attacking, and re-position yourself.
Tracking moves are meant to stuff the COMMAND sidestep. Marie Rose's Minuet is not a sidestep, it's an FSD move. Same with Christie's Jakeiho (and I don't see anyone complaining about that). If you think you can just randomly pul out a tracking move to stop any sidestep, then you don't understand how a sidestep is supposed to work.
I'm guessing a lot of you don't play VF, where it implements half and full-circular moves. This extra layer prevents their SS from being the braindead tool that is DOA5U's. You have to pay attention to the opponent's feet to know which direction the attack is, and sidestep accordingly, not like in DOA where the direction of your attack matters shit.
Example: Hitomi.
6H+K stuffs Minuet everytime because it's a full circular move.
2P+K is a half-circular move. Minuet can evade it depending on the direction of the attack.
Some characters are just unlucky they don't have a full circular move in their moveset to deal with Minuet, and that's FINE. It just means Marie Rose has the advantage in the matchup. It's like how Kokoro and Eliot don't have any mid-low tracking strike to deal with Jakeiho.
Minuet isn't broken. It's recovery frames are much longer than the command SS, and if Minuet avoids your attack, all you have to do is STOP attacking, and re-position yourself.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
I didn't know that Christie's Jak stance was a 'FSD' move, or that an FSD and a command sidestep was actually two totally different things.
Jak doesn't seem to be nearly as hard to stop as Minuet IMO, and usually I can stop that pretty hard with both of those moves you mentioned with Hitomi, and I abuse 1P. In fact, I am not sure I have ever seen a tracking move miss JAK, unless it's a high.
So are there any other moves that are 'FSD attacks' that you can think of? So for example, that spinny move that Rachel does, is that a FSD or a Command SS?? or that move that Hayate does with the punch?
Basically my strategy has always been: If my attacks are whiffing at close range because of movement, start using tracking moves. I guess I never had to consider anything else until MR came along
UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
Hayate's 8/2P+KP is a command side step I believe(I could be wrong though), so my guess is Rachel's is as well.
As for MR's minuet P+K once I learned it was -21 I had no problems with it anymore cuz as soon as I saw the side hop all I had to do was block then get a free 33T from it.
But if we're talking about the just the hop on it's own then I have to admit I have rarely seen MRs just do the hop it's pretty much always followed by the butt attack.
As for MR's minuet P+K once I learned it was -21 I had no problems with it anymore cuz as soon as I saw the side hop all I had to do was block then get a free 33T from it.
But if we're talking about the just the hop on it's own then I have to admit I have rarely seen MRs just do the hop it's pretty much always followed by the butt attack.