SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Ye Brute, don't forget ryu's 44p as a good range tracking mid, it's only 1 frame slower than 4p yet stuns on nh, plus better range.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
I actually did forget to mention that. Thanks for the reminder.
The stun is so minimal I don't typically like to toss it out, especially since it's riskier if blocked than 4P. But on NH it's definitely an improvement from 4P.
Mila/Ryu would be a 6/4 in her favor.
She has superior damage output, faster speeds, a crushing OH with very strong options from it, stronger juggle game, her 6T mixups are ridiculous, fast high tracking (and safe) kicks and a low tracking punch that leaves her at +2 (her 2P leaves her at +1), unusually strong throws, and in a similar way to Leon (some Mila mains will blow me up for this) she can bypass the stun game and go straight for launches into some serious damage. She is a close range fighter with good medium range tools (though recently they have become less useful in combos) and combined with her speed she can shut down some of Ryu's offense and is able to keep momentum with some of her silly advantage tech (Jefffcore was demonstrating some in the recent Northern Battle tournament). Her feints are great for mixups and extending combos (she can also do tackle straight from the ground, so more feints too). Faster, stronger, safer.
With 1.05 she has officially lost all of her good mid level kick stuns/combo extenders making her punching game more prevalent but they (the kicks) still have a strong keep out game. This sets Ryu up for his defensive Izuna games, however he needs to be quick on reads as she goes from high to mid and mid to high in a heartbeat. Her low kick game is pretty silly, just about all of her low kicks stun on NH and lead into punches, further setting up for the high damage she is known to do. Almost forgot, she also has launches that have no knockback to them, so her wall launch game is pretty silly. Actually, her wall game in general is silly. Off wall splats against Ryu she can net up to an extra 48 damage (Ryu can get 38).
The only thing really going to Ryu is that she is very punch happy and is a lightweight. I'm not the biggest Ryu expert (expert is not a word I would even use) but that is what I have from experience.
Your turn FSD.
She has superior damage output, faster speeds, a crushing OH with very strong options from it, stronger juggle game, her 6T mixups are ridiculous, fast high tracking (and safe) kicks and a low tracking punch that leaves her at +2 (her 2P leaves her at +1), unusually strong throws, and in a similar way to Leon (some Mila mains will blow me up for this) she can bypass the stun game and go straight for launches into some serious damage. She is a close range fighter with good medium range tools (though recently they have become less useful in combos) and combined with her speed she can shut down some of Ryu's offense and is able to keep momentum with some of her silly advantage tech (Jefffcore was demonstrating some in the recent Northern Battle tournament). Her feints are great for mixups and extending combos (she can also do tackle straight from the ground, so more feints too). Faster, stronger, safer.
With 1.05 she has officially lost all of her good mid level kick stuns/combo extenders making her punching game more prevalent but they (the kicks) still have a strong keep out game. This sets Ryu up for his defensive Izuna games, however he needs to be quick on reads as she goes from high to mid and mid to high in a heartbeat. Her low kick game is pretty silly, just about all of her low kicks stun on NH and lead into punches, further setting up for the high damage she is known to do. Almost forgot, she also has launches that have no knockback to them, so her wall launch game is pretty silly. Actually, her wall game in general is silly. Off wall splats against Ryu she can net up to an extra 48 damage (Ryu can get 38).
The only thing really going to Ryu is that she is very punch happy and is a lightweight. I'm not the biggest Ryu expert (expert is not a word I would even use) but that is what I have from experience.
Your turn FSD.
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SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Tell me if I'm wrong but if you manage to fuzzy milas OH can you izuna punish it?
The better option is to just go for 33T since she cannot snag you with it while you're in ducking state.
I thought she was in that new stance for Ultimate were you duck highs but can be hit by either a standing or crouching throw?
Chaos
Well-Known Member
You did a fantastic job.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
I honestly want to say some Sarah MU opinions. Yes, these are all gonna be 6-4 for Sarah but I do think there are ways to give her a tough time.
:Christie: I think Christie (from the DOA cast) is the character that has the best chance against Sarah. Sarah cannot space, track a bunch, and doesn't have many up-and-down strings. I feel like Christie has the greatest chance because she can space decently, crush very well, and has the evasive jak. Sarah doesn't really have many moves to use against the jak. Since most of Sarah's best tracking moves are high (most of her entire set is high anyways) she can't use those to counter the jak. Though Sarah herself has a special sidestep (FLA 8p+kh and FLA 4p+kh), it dos not crush at all, but can place her behind the opponent when timed correctly, any tracking move can hit her out of it. Christie also has the better mixups and semi-sidestep moves (7p as example). Christie can abuse Sarah's lack of tracking and can really toy with her from a distance. Sarah does have better combo damage and environmental damage. She also has better frames and is very safe. Sarah can punish Christie all day long and Christie can't really punish Sarah. Both characters do have guaranteed things after faint stuns. After Sarah's FLA 3k faint, she can get a good 3p+k or 2+kk (actually, only 2+k is guaranteed as it takes them out of faint, they can hold the second kick.). After a p+k faint from Christie, she can get a 4k or a h+kk. Christie does get a guaranteed CB from 214p, Sarah can only get a 3p+k after her 6h+k sitdown (Im honestly not sure if that is guaranteed) and she can also get a free FLA 6h+k after a FLA 4k sitdown only by the wall.
Helena can work her way around Sarah. Sarah lacks a bunch in true mids so the BKO duck is a pain for Sarah. Helena does have the better poking and mixups but the combo damage is definitely in Sarah's favor. Helna can really abuse her crushes against Sarah's highs. Helena also has throws that she can net damage from (BKO T, 214T) Sarah really doesn't have a good throw, excluding 41236T but that has many start up frames. Though Sarah can put Helena in a reset situation, Sarah's 2t is a reset throw but is a low throw so its not easily spammable like Hitomi's ( ). I don't think these 2 can really get damage from holds on each other (except Helena's jumping mid k hold, but Sarah wont be doing a jumping mid k anytime soon.).
:Ayane: Ayane can easily, very easily, abuse Sarah's shitty spacing. She can also crush alot of what Sarah throws out. Sarah is always the best at the neutral game due to her speed and a crushing i11 6p. I really don't know everything bout Ayane. i just know that she can fuck with Sarah via spacing and zoning. Up close, I do want to give it to Sarah because she has +frames on block after almost every transition and is better at neutral. Ayane for fact does have better throws and holds. She has a very good throw where she can bet some guaranteed stuff from (64t) and her advanced holds do give her the opportunity to get off some good damage. Ayane can get some good juggles on Sarah due to her being a lightweight, but Sarah can get significant damage on lightweights aswell, so I give her that, she can juggle Ayane a whole lot more than Ayane can juggle her.
Pretty much the same as Ayane. She can space Sarah out and crush her decently. Lisa also has throws where she can get guaranteed damage from (64t, 44t). So I say this is similar to the Sarah vs Ayane. Though in the spacing, Lisa can use long ranged OHs.
Most people think Tina is all about throw punishment. Tina can really play offensively. Tina has decent GBs and good throws. Tina cant punish Sarah for obvious reasons but if she can bait a hold, her throws are something to worry about. She also can get really great damage on lightweights after CB. Tina is also equipped with some OHs and has a unblockable attack (easy to see coming though). Tina also can use her crushes alot more since Sarah has many highs. Though Tina's mixups are more string-based, she can really get good damage on lightweights with just stun and launch. I do give the holds, throws, and combo damage to Tina, but I give the environmental damage to Sarah.
Leon is heavy weight, Sarah doesn't care about that. She can still get great damage on him. But of course, he can get great damage on her. I really think Leon has a good chance against her due to his combo and environmental damage. He also has more GBs. If Leon can bait a throw or get Sarah in an environmental situation, lol GG. He also has the best ground throws in the game, some being multi-throw ground throws. He even have multi-part holds. The other grapplers, save Mila and Bayman, can only do 2T and get 1 throw. Sasrah really cant juggle heavyweights after a PL all that good though, but after CB and 8k, lol she doesnt care about your weight class there. Punishment is on Sarah's side since she can punish but her +frames wont allow Leon to punish her. Though she does have her unsafe moments, Sarah players do not throw out her unsafe moves lol.
Another fairly safe character. Rig can pull Sarah's tricks against her. He can use his safeness to his advantage (not as good as she can though). Sarah does not have the punishment fully on her side in this MU. Rig can get very great damage on her due to her lightness and he mixes up pretty well. They both also have very shitty throws and holds (excluding his 41236T but it does 5 damage... but he can get good damage with juggles from it). I honestly think this is a 5-5 MU because they are basically the same (safety, good mix ups, great combo damage, similar hold and throw damage, easily crushable, and both barely crush) but Sarah does have her tricky moments, such as strings that go into a parry. So it is most likely a 6-4 for Sarah.
:Christie: I think Christie (from the DOA cast) is the character that has the best chance against Sarah. Sarah cannot space, track a bunch, and doesn't have many up-and-down strings. I feel like Christie has the greatest chance because she can space decently, crush very well, and has the evasive jak. Sarah doesn't really have many moves to use against the jak. Since most of Sarah's best tracking moves are high (most of her entire set is high anyways) she can't use those to counter the jak. Though Sarah herself has a special sidestep (FLA 8p+kh and FLA 4p+kh), it dos not crush at all, but can place her behind the opponent when timed correctly, any tracking move can hit her out of it. Christie also has the better mixups and semi-sidestep moves (7p as example). Christie can abuse Sarah's lack of tracking and can really toy with her from a distance. Sarah does have better combo damage and environmental damage. She also has better frames and is very safe. Sarah can punish Christie all day long and Christie can't really punish Sarah. Both characters do have guaranteed things after faint stuns. After Sarah's FLA 3k faint, she can get a good 3p+k or 2+kk (actually, only 2+k is guaranteed as it takes them out of faint, they can hold the second kick.). After a p+k faint from Christie, she can get a 4k or a h+kk. Christie does get a guaranteed CB from 214p, Sarah can only get a 3p+k after her 6h+k sitdown (Im honestly not sure if that is guaranteed) and she can also get a free FLA 6h+k after a FLA 4k sitdown only by the wall.
Helena can work her way around Sarah. Sarah lacks a bunch in true mids so the BKO duck is a pain for Sarah. Helena does have the better poking and mixups but the combo damage is definitely in Sarah's favor. Helna can really abuse her crushes against Sarah's highs. Helena also has throws that she can net damage from (BKO T, 214T) Sarah really doesn't have a good throw, excluding 41236T but that has many start up frames. Though Sarah can put Helena in a reset situation, Sarah's 2t is a reset throw but is a low throw so its not easily spammable like Hitomi's ( ). I don't think these 2 can really get damage from holds on each other (except Helena's jumping mid k hold, but Sarah wont be doing a jumping mid k anytime soon.).:Ayane: Ayane can easily, very easily, abuse Sarah's shitty spacing. She can also crush alot of what Sarah throws out. Sarah is always the best at the neutral game due to her speed and a crushing i11 6p. I really don't know everything bout Ayane. i just know that she can fuck with Sarah via spacing and zoning. Up close, I do want to give it to Sarah because she has +frames on block after almost every transition and is better at neutral. Ayane for fact does have better throws and holds. She has a very good throw where she can bet some guaranteed stuff from (64t) and her advanced holds do give her the opportunity to get off some good damage. Ayane can get some good juggles on Sarah due to her being a lightweight, but Sarah can get significant damage on lightweights aswell, so I give her that, she can juggle Ayane a whole lot more than Ayane can juggle her.
Pretty much the same as Ayane. She can space Sarah out and crush her decently. Lisa also has throws where she can get guaranteed damage from (64t, 44t). So I say this is similar to the Sarah vs Ayane. Though in the spacing, Lisa can use long ranged OHs. Most people think Tina is all about throw punishment. Tina can really play offensively. Tina has decent GBs and good throws. Tina cant punish Sarah for obvious reasons but if she can bait a hold, her throws are something to worry about. She also can get really great damage on lightweights after CB. Tina is also equipped with some OHs and has a unblockable attack (easy to see coming though). Tina also can use her crushes alot more since Sarah has many highs. Though Tina's mixups are more string-based, she can really get good damage on lightweights with just stun and launch. I do give the holds, throws, and combo damage to Tina, but I give the environmental damage to Sarah. Leon is heavy weight, Sarah doesn't care about that. She can still get great damage on him. But of course, he can get great damage on her. I really think Leon has a good chance against her due to his combo and environmental damage. He also has more GBs. If Leon can bait a throw or get Sarah in an environmental situation, lol GG. He also has the best ground throws in the game, some being multi-throw ground throws. He even have multi-part holds. The other grapplers, save Mila and Bayman, can only do 2T and get 1 throw. Sasrah really cant juggle heavyweights after a PL all that good though, but after CB and 8k, lol she doesnt care about your weight class there. Punishment is on Sarah's side since she can punish but her +frames wont allow Leon to punish her. Though she does have her unsafe moments, Sarah players do not throw out her unsafe moves lol. Another fairly safe character. Rig can pull Sarah's tricks against her. He can use his safeness to his advantage (not as good as she can though). Sarah does not have the punishment fully on her side in this MU. Rig can get very great damage on her due to her lightness and he mixes up pretty well. They both also have very shitty throws and holds (excluding his 41236T but it does 5 damage... but he can get good damage with juggles from it). I honestly think this is a 5-5 MU because they are basically the same (safety, good mix ups, great combo damage, similar hold and throw damage, easily crushable, and both barely crush) but Sarah does have her tricky moments, such as strings that go into a parry. So it is most likely a 6-4 for Sarah.
6H+K 3P+K isn't guaranteed if they struggle escape the fastest.
I think Ayane and Sarah are even in close range. Sarah has the frames, sure, but Ayane is great at crushing and a lot of Sarah's good moves are high (including all tracking outside of 66P+K4 H+K). Most of the significant frame advantage on block ends with Sarah in FLA. The only thing that beats Ayane's 4P in FLA are mid kicks. Ayane has a launcher mid kick hold. It's frame advantage, sure, but Ayane can pretty much force a 50/50 with decent reward. Sarah has to make a hard read and leave FLA and throw to really punish it and of course that loses to 4P. Ayane's throws and holds are better too.
Anything farther than mid range is hell for Sarah (and most other characters). All she can really do is hope Ayane messes up so Sarah do a 3P+K or something on reaction.
As for damage, they're in the same range in open space with Ayane having a bit more against walls. Feel free to call me out on this, though, 'cause I don't know the exact numbers on optimized Ayane combos.
I think it's 5.5-4.5 in Ayane's favor.
I think Ayane and Sarah are even in close range. Sarah has the frames, sure, but Ayane is great at crushing and a lot of Sarah's good moves are high (including all tracking outside of 66P+K4 H+K). Most of the significant frame advantage on block ends with Sarah in FLA. The only thing that beats Ayane's 4P in FLA are mid kicks. Ayane has a launcher mid kick hold. It's frame advantage, sure, but Ayane can pretty much force a 50/50 with decent reward. Sarah has to make a hard read and leave FLA and throw to really punish it and of course that loses to 4P. Ayane's throws and holds are better too.
Anything farther than mid range is hell for Sarah (and most other characters). All she can really do is hope Ayane messes up so Sarah do a 3P+K or something on reaction.
As for damage, they're in the same range in open space with Ayane having a bit more against walls. Feel free to call me out on this, though, 'cause I don't know the exact numbers on optimized Ayane combos.
I think it's 5.5-4.5 in Ayane's favor.
Also, just now saw this, but yeah. I'm pretty sure you can standing throw both Leon and Mila's OH tackles, much like you can punish Ayane's PPPK with a standing or crouching throw. Remind me to test this next time I'm in the game.
Leon's 33T can be standing thrown, he is in a standing state during it (it's just really fast). If he tackles from the ground it needs to be low thrown (it's a high crushing OH).
Mila is crouching in all of her feints and tackle shenanigans (except during feint K) from start to finish. Her new feint (the one that comes directly out of her punches) goes into and out of the crouching state extremely quickly if you cancel into it and don't press anything. If you've thrown Mila out of it then that person just didn't push anything during the feint time.
phoenix1985gr
Active Member
why Sarah doesn't crush well? she has 2p at 12f for frame advantage, and then 2h+k which starts her stun game and 3p+k that launches what more do you need?
Mila 66T is squatting until recovery, so you can standing throw it if you read it. The string tackles are crouching, though. Weird.
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EDIT: I tricked Brute into liking a pro-Sarah post. My life's work is complete.
EDIT:
She crushes very well. She just isn't the best at it. Sarah needs to be stronger!
EDIT: I tricked Brute into liking a pro-Sarah post. My life's work is complete.
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Okay, I stand corrected (and double checked). Thanks StrikerSashi.
She goes from Squatting (Initial) to Crouching (Active) to Squatting (Recovery) again during her 66T and SS 6T. In Squatting she can be either high or low thrown.
During her punch feint she goes straight into Crouching (Initial and Active). During recovery frames she is Squatting.
Strikes during Feints:
P and 2P are Crouching. P+K and K are Standing.
I guess I never understood that Squatting was a stance where she was both standing and crouching.
She goes from Squatting (Initial) to Crouching (Active) to Squatting (Recovery) again during her 66T and SS 6T. In Squatting she can be either high or low thrown.
During her punch feint she goes straight into Crouching (Initial and Active). During recovery frames she is Squatting.
Strikes during Feints:
P and 2P are Crouching. P+K and K are Standing.
I guess I never understood that Squatting was a stance where she was both standing and crouching.
By the way, can someone tell me a timing that causes Sarah 6P to crush? Something like blocked 3P (-3) against a 10f jab (doesn't work, by the way). I keep hearing that it does, but I've yet to see a situation where it actually crushes something and not just beat it out. That said, I'm bad at this game so maybe I just keep not seeing it.
Hmm... Sarah/Ayane MU feels 5-5 to me. Everyone except a very small number of characters fall to Ayane at range, that's not really an exclusive attribute of this MU. All 4 VF characters struggle at range against Ayane, but once they get in, their frames can overwhelm her for the most part. Sarah can pressure Ayane quite fair bit, and gets nasty damage from a launch. Not as bad as a Pai player in your face with a lot momentum, but you get the idea. Her 3P+K also seems to do a good job at whiff punishing for a launch (which is basically what Ayane is trying to do to you at range: setting up a whiff punish attempt).
All the VF characters lack in ranged tools, but they do have ways to approach (e.g. 66K, 2H+K, 6KP, etc.). The only noticeable advantage that Ayane has in this MU really is her ability to abuse Sarah's over reliance on highs when in FLA. At range it's a game of who maintains patience the most. In close, Sarah's frames can be troublesome. Sarah's 2P & 6P's can also be a nuisance.