Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Explain.
Shit We Lost
- Thread starter grap3fruitman
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Explain.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Fuck throw breaks. Throws are slow as fuck as is and there is barely any guaranteed damage in this game. If this game wasn't so fucking stun heavy with holds being able to be thrown out all willy nilly and there was more guaranteed setups and real frame traps then maybe throw breaks would be fine. But in the current system? Fuck throw breaks, especially since TN has no distinction on inputs for throw breaking. Mila for example has two versions of her throws when she grabs someone on the ground, yet both can be broken with the same input. You really think TN would be fucking smart enough to figure out a good throw break system? I doubt it.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Raansu, you are shortsighted if you don't understand why throw breaks are necessary. You complain about too much guessing, but the lack of throw breaks in this game are the primary cause of the crazy amount of guessing that goes on in it. It's not just the hold system that promotes reckless behavior.
When a person is at disadvantage, normally he blocks. Except in DOA, this gets you thrown, and for many characters, put into a situation where you are at disadvantage yet again. So you want to block again, but you can't, or you get thrown and looped into eternity. So you guess like a mad jackass.
There is no logic to the situation and no special circumstances that cause it, simply anything that results in disadvantage.
The only way out of that situation is to play reckless and attack while you are at disadvantage, or crouch or do something else which exposes you to large amounts of potential damage. People HAVE to do this at disadvantage. It's the games most basic way of saying "play reckless or lose by default."
In other games, you have a throw break system to alleviate pressure and prevent illogical loops from happening like this. I get to disadvantage, but now I can block and break forward throws because this is my opponents typical pattern and I've been paying attention. This rewards being a student of your opponents habits.
What does not reward you is when you have unbreakable throws and after getting put at disadvantage, simply have to guess between launcher and throw. It's a direct 50/50 with no way to play safe, and no real justification for having earned the situation. You can study which option is he more likely to pick and do your best, but on a 50/50 you are still likely to lose just as often, and one way or another someone is taking damage out of the exchange.
People take damage too fast in DOA. And I don't mean large amounts at once, and not by guaranteed circumstances, but because the game sets you on the path of meatgrinding each other to death without being able to take logical precautions. It's why most fights, despite the winner being consistent, usually end up with the rounds being fairly close. That needs to change.
When a person is at disadvantage, normally he blocks. Except in DOA, this gets you thrown, and for many characters, put into a situation where you are at disadvantage yet again. So you want to block again, but you can't, or you get thrown and looped into eternity. So you guess like a mad jackass.
There is no logic to the situation and no special circumstances that cause it, simply anything that results in disadvantage.
The only way out of that situation is to play reckless and attack while you are at disadvantage, or crouch or do something else which exposes you to large amounts of potential damage. People HAVE to do this at disadvantage. It's the games most basic way of saying "play reckless or lose by default."
In other games, you have a throw break system to alleviate pressure and prevent illogical loops from happening like this. I get to disadvantage, but now I can block and break forward throws because this is my opponents typical pattern and I've been paying attention. This rewards being a student of your opponents habits.
What does not reward you is when you have unbreakable throws and after getting put at disadvantage, simply have to guess between launcher and throw. It's a direct 50/50 with no way to play safe, and no real justification for having earned the situation. You can study which option is he more likely to pick and do your best, but on a 50/50 you are still likely to lose just as often, and one way or another someone is taking damage out of the exchange.
People take damage too fast in DOA. And I don't mean large amounts at once, and not by guaranteed circumstances, but because the game sets you on the path of meatgrinding each other to death without being able to take logical precautions. It's why most fights, despite the winner being consistent, usually end up with the rounds being fairly close. That needs to change.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
What you want is even more guessing and recklessness. Who needs to worry about the risk of missing a whiff punish with a move that is throw punishable...oh but wait I can just throw break now. Who needs throw punishment? Oh look, I'm going to punish him for holding...nope throw breaks.
The core mechanics of DoA does not allow for a throw break system. It would never work and TN is incapable of fixing the core mechanics, let alone doing throw breaks correctly. And even in VF/TK I hated throw breaks. It's a stupid mechanic that adds guessing that shouldn't be there. It's called throw punishment for a reason.
The core mechanics of DoA does not allow for a throw break system. It would never work and TN is incapable of fixing the core mechanics, let alone doing throw breaks correctly. And even in VF/TK I hated throw breaks. It's a stupid mechanic that adds guessing that shouldn't be there. It's called throw punishment for a reason.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I want the opposite. Clearly you have no idea how that is attained, because you do not play the game.
You don't punish a whiff with a throw unless its a seriously epic whiff. Throw range is too short for that. You punish a whiff with a strike, preferably a launcher. Frames can be adjusted so that strikes are a viable form of punishment. But no matter how you adjust the frames, keeping the throw system as it is now just results in lots of guessing.
As has been talked about in the past, high-counter throws would not be breakable. This is just using basic logic and you should already know this considering it is not the first time this discussion has been had.
It's only called throw punishment in DOA, but thank you for showing the real reason behind your argument instead of just throwing up more excuses.
Essentially, you have no faith in Team Ninja to make any changes work correctly, so you don't want them to make any changes at all. Gotcha. And that's a wonderful outlook you have on life there, but it doesn't really make anything better.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
0 frame low holds evade all normal throws. Throws lose to attacks, OHs only beat specific attacks. Delayed strings makes throw punishment difficult. Throw punishment in general is more difficult than DOA4.
There's more factors in landing a throw in DOA from what I've played.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Rikuto when I said missed a whiff punishment I meant as in screwed up timing and it gets blocked. Which can and does happen. So what's the risk? Most whiff punishers are unsafe on block but the risk of messing it up doesn't exist since now throw breaks can occur.
No, the opposite is not what you want. You don't want more guaranteed tools. You want more back doors to escape out of things.
And yes, given how shitty DoA5 was and how they handled the patches and how it seems they are doing nothing but nerfing in 5U...You're right, I don't believe TN good do throw breaks correctly. Sorry I don't have the kind of blind faith you do. I mean, unless a miracle happens I already know 5U is going to be utter shit and worse than 5. TN is incapable of making a good fighting game anymore.
No, the opposite is not what you want. You don't want more guaranteed tools. You want more back doors to escape out of things.
And yes, given how shitty DoA5 was and how they handled the patches and how it seems they are doing nothing but nerfing in 5U...You're right, I don't believe TN good do throw breaks correctly. Sorry I don't have the kind of blind faith you do. I mean, unless a miracle happens I already know 5U is going to be utter shit and worse than 5. TN is incapable of making a good fighting game anymore.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I don't have blind faith in anything, Raansu. I actually talk with these people.
You have blind hatred and a lot of inexperience.
True, I don't like that. But a throw break isn't going to change the relationship there as high-counter throws would still be unbreakable.
Same way in VF. Which is why you condition your opponent with single-strikes that lead into big damage, same as you do in VF. When they become scared of this, they become vulnerable to throws.
And if you want to get technical, throws are better in DOA than in VF because if you read the situation wrong and get hit in DOA, you could potentially bail yourself out with a hold. In VF, you just eat the damage.
But OH's are not throws. OH's LOSE to throws. That's an argument for why throws are good, not bad.
If you're trying to throw someone mid-string, that's not throw punishment. That's a random guess.
Thats because moves became safer in DOA5, which is what everybody was asking for. Throw punishment itself did not change, strike properties did. Part of the reason a throw break system is good is so you can deal with safer attacks and string delay in a more patient manner without having to bet the farm. After all, by default you should be wanting to wait for your opponent to complete an attack in its entirety and fail, rather than having to risk yourself via interrupt.
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
I prefer throw punishment over strike punishment. The former allows me to avoid the stun game and the risk of being randomly held. If they tried to introduce NH throw breaks, not only would they have to adjust everything on block, they'd also have to change the stun properties on 'punishing' strikes. There's already too many stuns that the opponent can simply counter out of, and be safe from HC throws.
Throws also open up players who love to block. I can't imagine playing 1.02 Kokoro where if throw breaks were present.
Throws also open up players who love to block. I can't imagine playing 1.02 Kokoro where if throw breaks were present.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
And somehow this magically results in more guessing instead of less, according to Raansu.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Zack has about what 4 GB's.
which has like +3
SS
They're good, but ALL GB attacks should at least guarantee
66P+K is actually -8 on block.
SS K is -1 up close and +2 at mid range
33KP is -8.
So yay useless GBs are useless. The + frames I give me nothing for free and besides H+K is i31 good luck trying to get someone to block that. Thanks TN.
Also strike punishment over throw punishment.....Why?
Let's use my man Zack as an example. For throw punishment is 6T and that is 15 damage. If I had strike punishment I would do PP and that is 21 damage...and i think you figure out the rest.
So Raansu's ignorant because he's not privy to the super-secret information you have straight from Team Ninja?
This is where DOA's huge string delay is an issue. You should be at advantage so you try to throw but DOA and your opponent was just delaying for 999 frames and you eat high-counter damage. That's not a "random guess," that's trying to play DOA with an actual fighting game mentality.
Did you pop in VF and think you were playing DOA?
He's not wrong. That's the whole basis of this thread.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Grap3 you are basically regurgitating arguments that I myself constructed in the past and then trying to pass them off as your own to combat me on a subject you know nothing about. Give it a rest.
I'm also not subject to super-secret-info-anything. I have traveled to both public and private events in which Team Ninja staff were present, and I have talked with them. I go to many events, so I talk with them regularly.
You two go to nothing, and so you talk to them never. If you understood their general attitude towards the series you would better understand why the game is where it is, and where it is likely heading.
Instead you sit at home, refusing to support the offline scene, refusing to educate yourselves and then bitching about everything in a game you don't even play.
I'm also not subject to super-secret-info-anything. I have traveled to both public and private events in which Team Ninja staff were present, and I have talked with them. I go to many events, so I talk with them regularly.
You two go to nothing, and so you talk to them never. If you understood their general attitude towards the series you would better understand why the game is where it is, and where it is likely heading.
Instead you sit at home, refusing to support the offline scene, refusing to educate yourselves and then bitching about everything in a game you don't even play.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
translation:He has done some winning while you guys haven't. Not trying to start anything.
...no....there is a throwbreak in SC...do you think astaorth is bad in that game? When he has been a good character in pretty much all the SC games.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
I'm all for less stuns (the poking in this game gets flat out stupid sometimes because of it, like with Jann lee), but don't we already have throw breaks? I mean I see people "cancel" my throws a lot, as in, break put with both of us recoiling the moment grab makes contact. Or am I misunderstanding?
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
No, the throw breaks you see now are only on non-directional, neutral throws and during certain multi-part throws.
What I am talking about is different. It's the ability to break any directional throw before it does damage to you by predicting the direction and breaking it accordingly. Similar to what VF uses.
It's essentially an extra layer of defense you can use to protect yourself during the neutral game, provided you are paying attention to your environment and have an idea of which throw is likely to cause the most damage to you.
In Soul Calibur and VF you use this to prevent yourself from getting rung out. In DOA you could use this to stop constant frame advantage resets or avoid the ceiling, but at the cost of making yourself vulnerable to other types of throws. It needs to be done because right now, DOA lacks any incentive to block whatsoever.
What I am talking about is different. It's the ability to break any directional throw before it does damage to you by predicting the direction and breaking it accordingly. Similar to what VF uses.
It's essentially an extra layer of defense you can use to protect yourself during the neutral game, provided you are paying attention to your environment and have an idea of which throw is likely to cause the most damage to you.
In Soul Calibur and VF you use this to prevent yourself from getting rung out. In DOA you could use this to stop constant frame advantage resets or avoid the ceiling, but at the cost of making yourself vulnerable to other types of throws. It needs to be done because right now, DOA lacks any incentive to block whatsoever.
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