Raansu
Well-Known Member
Bleh no. I play 3D fighters cuz I can't stand projectiles.
DOA5 Ideas
- Thread starter ETR
- Start date
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with them, I just don't like them and prefer 3D fighters because they are not on a 2D plane with projectiles and constant jumping. Different strokes for different folks.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Isn't that what sidestepping is for?
I mean the main issue that 3d fighters do have is that a lot of them just don't have very defined zoning games.
Soul Calibur is kind of the exception to this rule because you have clear instances of short range characters and long range characters based on weapon size and style. Projectiles in 3D fighters also lend themselves to zoning, although it mostly forces people into sidestepping the attacks.
The more extreme instances of this are Algol matches, but that is only the most extreme case. I don't think every 3d need go that far.
That said, I think some of the most fun matches I've ever had in soul calibur were against Algol, even if he did piss off 90% of the competitive fanbase.
I mean the main issue that 3d fighters do have is that a lot of them just don't have very defined zoning games.
Soul Calibur is kind of the exception to this rule because you have clear instances of short range characters and long range characters based on weapon size and style. Projectiles in 3D fighters also lend themselves to zoning, although it mostly forces people into sidestepping the attacks.
The more extreme instances of this are Algol matches, but that is only the most extreme case. I don't think every 3d need go that far.
That said, I think some of the most fun matches I've ever had in soul calibur were against Algol, even if he did piss off 90% of the competitive fanbase.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It's just a different mindset. People who play 3D fighters don't want to deal with those kind of situations. And side stepping is terrible in doa. You can't even sidestep Busa's damn projectile in doad unless you are at max range...and even then its iffy. Genre's projectiles are pretty terrible, but they can be annoying at times.
I play 3D fighters because I enjoy that style of fighter. There's been some 2D fighters that I somewhat enjoyed, but after awhile I just get annoyed by them because of supers and projectiles. I'm just not in the mindset to play that style of game. I'm already worried that doa might be introducing some kind of stupid super, and I'm hoping that scene was mostly cinematic.
I play 3D fighters because I enjoy that style of fighter. There's been some 2D fighters that I somewhat enjoyed, but after awhile I just get annoyed by them because of supers and projectiles. I'm just not in the mindset to play that style of game. I'm already worried that doa might be introducing some kind of stupid super, and I'm hoping that scene was mostly cinematic.
target1995
New Member
ya but not if it's ninjas only. what is hitomi going to use as a projectile? and people that are just trash spam the shit outta those type of moves (not all)
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Nothing is wrong with projectiles but, for Dead or Alive it doesn't fit. The art of this game is beatuiful with its hand-to-hand combat structure. I am hoping that TN just put projectiles in DOA: D for shits and gigs like, "Hey look what I can do!" As a serious move to change DOA that wouldn't be a good look even if the projectiles were pointless to use.
Since nothing has been said officially that projectiles are going to be a permanent add to the series, they don't matter.
Since nothing has been said officially that projectiles are going to be a permanent add to the series, they don't matter.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Let me put it this way. . .
Projectiles (for certain chars) and "special tools" encourage zoning. Not saying every character should have projectiles, and not saying every character needs them. I do think every character needs special tools to zone. DOA currently lacks zoning.
Seeing as it lacks zoning, the first hit of the match (which sets the pace for the rest of the match) almost always comes down to randomness due to lack of meta game. In other words, skill is usually not a factor in deciding who sets the pace of the game.
If you guys don't want zoning to be a meta-game, then what else would you recommend? Because I highly doubt you want DOA to keep being just random shit. Think for a minute about what it is you're actually opposing here.
Projectiles (for certain chars) and "special tools" encourage zoning. Not saying every character should have projectiles, and not saying every character needs them. I do think every character needs special tools to zone. DOA currently lacks zoning.
Seeing as it lacks zoning, the first hit of the match (which sets the pace for the rest of the match) almost always comes down to randomness due to lack of meta game. In other words, skill is usually not a factor in deciding who sets the pace of the game.
If you guys don't want zoning to be a meta-game, then what else would you recommend? Because I highly doubt you want DOA to keep being just random shit. Think for a minute about what it is you're actually opposing here.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
As far as I know just DOA 4 is randomness. So yeah put projectiles in DOA 4 to add more chaos to chaos, it may even help that game. Zoning with projectiles is not needed to make DOA a solid game again. Nothing controls the pace of the game even after the 1st hit of a match(unless you are playing with or against Busa on the waterfall valley, bridge), holds prevent anyone from talking a strong lead.
I can think of a couple things that can be done to help the game: decent normal hit launchers, guaranteed setups, everything not leaving you in the damn negative, just to start. Then who would projectiles be given to. . . . . . ONLY THE NINJAS, which would make them even more ridiculous to deal with than they already are. I mean why would elliot (a chinese boxer) have one, christie, tina, bass, etc. etc. It wouldn't make any sense nor would it be a good look to see them throwing things across the screen.
DOA didn't need a projectile meta-game before, why now? Of course if the gameplay stay as is, yeah put them in there, only to add to the chaos. Though it seems TN wants to do right by the game so maybe projectiles won't be needed to bring in a strong meta-game, man I hope so.
I can think of a couple things that can be done to help the game: decent normal hit launchers, guaranteed setups, everything not leaving you in the damn negative, just to start. Then who would projectiles be given to. . . . . . ONLY THE NINJAS, which would make them even more ridiculous to deal with than they already are. I mean why would elliot (a chinese boxer) have one, christie, tina, bass, etc. etc. It wouldn't make any sense nor would it be a good look to see them throwing things across the screen.
DOA didn't need a projectile meta-game before, why now? Of course if the gameplay stay as is, yeah put them in there, only to add to the chaos. Though it seems TN wants to do right by the game so maybe projectiles won't be needed to bring in a strong meta-game, man I hope so.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I'm opposing something I don't like and its the very reason I don't play 2D fighters. This type of zoning does not make sense in a 3D fighter either, and it simply doesn't belong in them. If DoA5 adds projectiles to the game then I will not play it. I found it extremely annoying in doad, and I simply do not want to see it in doa5. There are plenty of ways to make the game better without adding projectiles. Bringing back frame advantage and unholdables would be a good start, as well as making side stepping more useful.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Zoning is not chaos, it is the opposite of chaos.
Zoning is control.
Frame advantage and unholdables are a kind of control and certainly welcome, but they are not absolute. Sidestepping is part of good movement, and good movement is absolute. This is much closer to the truth of things.
I think we both know that's not true. Characters will always have certain things that vex you, me, and everybody. If its not a fireball its a cartwheel, if its not a cartwheel it's an overpowered throw. The key is learning how to get around these things by using solid, controllable methods, and not DOA 4 style guessing.
And there are a lot more differences in 2D fighters to vex someone other then simply "oh this has fireballs so I have to pay attention, thats gay."
The reason I advocate for special tools such as projectiles is because they are controllable. There is no guess work, you know when they are coming and they force a reaction.
That doesn't mean ninja's should get every single option under the sun, and it doesn't mean projectiles should be the only kind of zoning available to people. All I'm saying is, there needs to be clearly defined, distance keeping options available to characters that don't rely on shoddy guesswork.
oh, side note, I had a dream about playing the DOA 5 beta last night. Had a lot of really twisted, remixed levels from DOA 4. Also Bayman could shoot people . Not sure I'd take projectiles that far, but damn it was a fun dream.
Zoning is control.
Frame advantage and unholdables are a kind of control and certainly welcome, but they are not absolute. Sidestepping is part of good movement, and good movement is absolute. This is much closer to the truth of things.
I think we both know that's not true. Characters will always have certain things that vex you, me, and everybody. If its not a fireball its a cartwheel, if its not a cartwheel it's an overpowered throw. The key is learning how to get around these things by using solid, controllable methods, and not DOA 4 style guessing.
And there are a lot more differences in 2D fighters to vex someone other then simply "oh this has fireballs so I have to pay attention, thats gay."
The reason I advocate for special tools such as projectiles is because they are controllable. There is no guess work, you know when they are coming and they force a reaction.
That doesn't mean ninja's should get every single option under the sun, and it doesn't mean projectiles should be the only kind of zoning available to people. All I'm saying is, there needs to be clearly defined, distance keeping options available to characters that don't rely on shoddy guesswork.
oh, side note, I had a dream about playing the DOA 5 beta last night. Had a lot of really twisted, remixed levels from DOA 4. Also Bayman could shoot people . Not sure I'd take projectiles that far, but damn it was a fun dream.
Koompbala
Well-Known Member
Hey veryone,
I agree with everything Raansu said all 2D's bore me. MK had my attention but between the fixes and it being bad that game is the worst. Then there's BlazBlue pretty much the only 2D I enjoy. Even then I don't know if I actually like it or not since I don't even own it. I will never again say SFIV is a scrub game cause I played AE and tried to get into it. Hell I even watch those 20 part tutorial videos of SSFIV on youtube. So I know there's a lot of premeditated thought behind pretty much everything even a simple fireball. I can't give a valid reason why I don't like 2D. Put it this way think of all the subjects in school there's bound to be one you don't like. Now just because you don't like said subject doesn't mean that its impossible to learn its just you simply don't like it enough to learn. That's how I am with art I can't give a detailed description why I hate it cause I simply don't like it. It is the same concept with 2D's.
So needless to say this whole super and ex moves craze going on with 3D's is getting out of hand. I understand why 3d fighters are taking this direction it all goes back to what would be the best business decision. Every developer see's what numbers SF and MvC3 pull in at EVO so every other fighter even 3D's says "lets do what Capcom does cause there the Call of Duty of fighters". When a product sets the bar then every product alike tries to be like said product. The way games are being made nowadays it seems like every person is thinking how do we make a game to be like the top one. Instead of you know what how do go even higher than the top game. Shit I remember the good ol days days when I would talk about everything but gameplay I would debate graphics, sound, etc. Now all I care and talk about is gameplay games are so bad nowadays all I care about is if the gameplay is good.
I agree with everything Raansu said all 2D's bore me. MK had my attention but between the fixes and it being bad that game is the worst. Then there's BlazBlue pretty much the only 2D I enjoy. Even then I don't know if I actually like it or not since I don't even own it. I will never again say SFIV is a scrub game cause I played AE and tried to get into it. Hell I even watch those 20 part tutorial videos of SSFIV on youtube. So I know there's a lot of premeditated thought behind pretty much everything even a simple fireball. I can't give a valid reason why I don't like 2D. Put it this way think of all the subjects in school there's bound to be one you don't like. Now just because you don't like said subject doesn't mean that its impossible to learn its just you simply don't like it enough to learn. That's how I am with art I can't give a detailed description why I hate it cause I simply don't like it. It is the same concept with 2D's.
So needless to say this whole super and ex moves craze going on with 3D's is getting out of hand. I understand why 3d fighters are taking this direction it all goes back to what would be the best business decision. Every developer see's what numbers SF and MvC3 pull in at EVO so every other fighter even 3D's says "lets do what Capcom does cause there the Call of Duty of fighters". When a product sets the bar then every product alike tries to be like said product. The way games are being made nowadays it seems like every person is thinking how do we make a game to be like the top one. Instead of you know what how do go even higher than the top game. Shit I remember the good ol days days when I would talk about everything but gameplay I would debate graphics, sound, etc. Now all I care and talk about is gameplay games are so bad nowadays all I care about is if the gameplay is good.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
I just don't see the need for them and how would you even regulate them so that everyone has something? That wouldn't make sense to the game and the story that it has? Zoning is imprtant but not for everyone, look at the fighting styles, a chinese boxer wants and needs to be in close quarters with you, Muay Thai wants to keep his opponent close to mid-range, and a wrestler wants to be close to you. I feel that it is up to player to figure out how to get their character in the range they need to be in.
I have never known for a Jeet Kun Do user or a Tai Chi user to need a projectile. Yes, zoning is important but to give projectiles to zone effectively, is nonsense for a 3D fighter. You wouldn't even be able to use them, if a true sidestep is brought into the game, what purpose would a projectile have in DOA then? They would get stepped and punished severly for using them, so that makes projectiles useless. If they are made to where they are useful be prepared to watch a Dragon Ball Z match.
Most fighting styles aren't even meant to be zoning, yeah some fighting styles have moves that you can zone with. I will leave this alone, I see you feel strongly about your view on this as I am strong about mine. There is nothing you can say to me that would me believe projectiles would make DOA a better game or at least have a solidified meta-game There are various other things that can be taken care of to help the game, besides turning DOA into DBZ or something of that nature.
I have never known for a Jeet Kun Do user or a Tai Chi user to need a projectile. Yes, zoning is important but to give projectiles to zone effectively, is nonsense for a 3D fighter. You wouldn't even be able to use them, if a true sidestep is brought into the game, what purpose would a projectile have in DOA then? They would get stepped and punished severly for using them, so that makes projectiles useless. If they are made to where they are useful be prepared to watch a Dragon Ball Z match.
Most fighting styles aren't even meant to be zoning, yeah some fighting styles have moves that you can zone with. I will leave this alone, I see you feel strongly about your view on this as I am strong about mine. There is nothing you can say to me that would me believe projectiles would make DOA a better game or at least have a solidified meta-game There are various other things that can be taken care of to help the game, besides turning DOA into DBZ or something of that nature.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
I don't think either of you are even understanding what I'm telling you to be honest.
I'm not saying give everyone a projectile and turn it into DBZ, I'm saying give everyone an option so they can participate in the zoning metagame with an equal chance of winning it. A fireball is one of many options you can give to somebody. Lunging attacks that cover great distance, are evasive, and are relatively safe are another option. Genfu already has this and its why he dominates in basically every DOA.
So you have two options from the developer standpoint. You can either power up other characters so they can deal with it (while adding to the zoning metagame and overall gameplay), or you can strip the game down and nerf everthing into oblivion further (as was done with DOA 4 to great extent).
And Allan? Every fighting style has zoning. It is as much keeping distance as it is closing distance. It's CONTROL. The guy who first closes the distance correctly is the guy who usually ends up winning the fight.
This principle is true in real life as much as it is in fighting games.
If you don't want a developed zoning game, then what do you want? You might as well start out right next to each other every single match, because distance and positioning would be pointless without it.
So don't knock the idea of projectiles when it's just one way to zone. You're already dealing with it in any serious match anyway, so quit removing options that give you more control over the sluggish movement in this game.
Because truthfully, it sounds like DOA 4 could be the only 3D fighter you could actually stand. It already plays exactly like that. You don't even need a DOA 5.
If you think this kind of shit isn't important to a 3D fighter's gameplay, its showing you never had to push yourself against the legions of minuteman genfu's that plagued the offline tournament scene for a year and a half. Trust me, you want options to deal with that shit. If you think the game is fine without it, you're dead wrong. Plain and simple.
You did however ask one valid question, so i'll answer it.
Who says a projectile can only be fired in one direction? Algol certainly didn't give a shit about that. Of course he was over the top and could move WHILE he was firing, delay his shots, and fire in multiple directions at the same time.
And say you knock someone into a corner. Where they steppin to now?
Seriously guys, whats with this "I dont wanna deal with this stuff, it challenges me" bullshit. Fighting games are meant to be challenging and this is a hell of a lot better then cheetahs and cars. Man up already, there's a reason 2D fighters are more popular and it isnt chun li's thighs of steel.
I'm not saying give everyone a projectile and turn it into DBZ, I'm saying give everyone an option so they can participate in the zoning metagame with an equal chance of winning it. A fireball is one of many options you can give to somebody. Lunging attacks that cover great distance, are evasive, and are relatively safe are another option. Genfu already has this and its why he dominates in basically every DOA.
So you have two options from the developer standpoint. You can either power up other characters so they can deal with it (while adding to the zoning metagame and overall gameplay), or you can strip the game down and nerf everthing into oblivion further (as was done with DOA 4 to great extent).
And Allan? Every fighting style has zoning. It is as much keeping distance as it is closing distance. It's CONTROL. The guy who first closes the distance correctly is the guy who usually ends up winning the fight.
This principle is true in real life as much as it is in fighting games.
If you don't want a developed zoning game, then what do you want? You might as well start out right next to each other every single match, because distance and positioning would be pointless without it.
So don't knock the idea of projectiles when it's just one way to zone. You're already dealing with it in any serious match anyway, so quit removing options that give you more control over the sluggish movement in this game.
Because truthfully, it sounds like DOA 4 could be the only 3D fighter you could actually stand. It already plays exactly like that. You don't even need a DOA 5.
If you think this kind of shit isn't important to a 3D fighter's gameplay, its showing you never had to push yourself against the legions of minuteman genfu's that plagued the offline tournament scene for a year and a half. Trust me, you want options to deal with that shit. If you think the game is fine without it, you're dead wrong. Plain and simple.
You did however ask one valid question, so i'll answer it.
Who says a projectile can only be fired in one direction? Algol certainly didn't give a shit about that. Of course he was over the top and could move WHILE he was firing, delay his shots, and fire in multiple directions at the same time.
And say you knock someone into a corner. Where they steppin to now?
Seriously guys, whats with this "I dont wanna deal with this stuff, it challenges me" bullshit. Fighting games are meant to be challenging and this is a hell of a lot better then cheetahs and cars. Man up already, there's a reason 2D fighters are more popular and it isnt chun li's thighs of steel.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
fuck it, bring in the projectiles, it honestly don't matter what they do to the game to me. i will be flithly at whatever they do it anyways, trash or not.
, just look at it like that.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely right.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
you don't need projectiles to achieve characters who are good at different ranges and therefore force players to adapt and work out spacing games and zoning can be about knowing when to advance on an opponent with good ranged moves/keepaway.
I'm not a fan of projectile in DOA; not to say it couldn't be implemented in such a way that works.
Hayabusa's fireball in DOAD is pretty bad because it practically tracks. It should have bad recovery and be easy to sidestep.
I'm not a fan of projectile in DOA; not to say it couldn't be implemented in such a way that works.
Hayabusa's fireball in DOAD is pretty bad because it practically tracks. It should have bad recovery and be easy to sidestep.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I understand what you are trying to say Rikuto, but I'm simply saying I don't want to see it. It has nothing to do with it being too challenging or feeling it being overpowered (which I dont feel that way at all). It is just a simple fact that I do not like that style of fighting games. I don't care how popular it is either. If I cared about popularity I would not play doa and vf. I would of moved onto Tk or some other more successful fighter.
Projectiles do not belong in 3D fighters. I don't want to see it in doa, and whether you believe it or not, I will not play doa5 if it has projectiles. They are fine in 2D fighters and work great, but that style of gameplay is simply not fun to me. I am unwilling to learn that style and I am unwilling to deal with, this is why I play 3D fighters. I prefer the fighting mechanics of a 3D fighter. If I want projectiles, I'd play MK or SF or whatnot, but I do not, so I play games like doa and vf, simple as that.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
Did you purposely type your text in all black? I had to highlight it to read it, asshole haha.