DOA5 Demo: Consolidated Feedback

[Jefffcore]

- I'd like to see Advanced holds do less damage, I think people will get used to them.

Also; things change/evolve, that's life. No one wants to keep playing the same game over and over.

 

[Raansu]

- I'd like to see Advanced holds do less damage, I think people will get used to them.

Then there would be no point in using them. The damage on them is fine.

 

[Jefffcore]

I know Busa's Izuna's do quite a bit more than his standard holds, I'd think there'd be room for damage reduction.

It really depends what happens with the rest of the game, but the way it is now, I don't like them. Assuming all your suggestions were applied, I'd be ok with them the way they are.

 

[DrDogg]

I'll post my responses in one of the other threads (where the same discussion is going on), to keep this thread on track.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

I don't think losing the "no depth, titty fighter" identity is such a bad idea.

how does the game exactly have no depth ? please elaborate.

Power Blows.

you cant compare power blows to supers. power blows are easily punishable and have extremely long start up. after playing the game long enough you will realize that landing them isnt as simple as you may think.

Oh, you hate having a slight comeback factor for one round?

yes I do acctually. why should a game reward you for losing ? particularly in soul calibur (which i do play competitively by the way). the amount of times a match gets turned around because of a stupid random super is silly. I am not hating on the game, I acctually really like soul calibur 5. but, in my opinion it just isnt soul calibur anymore.

as I mentioned before, power blows arent as free as you seem to think. I think the fight trailers may be a bit misleading. like I said you can easily react to them by a counter or even a side step ...

You need to practice in order to use a game mechanic well and be rewarded? Well shit! What kind of game dares to ask me to practice playing it? Fucking Mario better jump over those pits of death by himself while we're at it. I should only have to hold right on the d-pad!

I think I wasnt clear about this. I meant Just guard in relation to the old GI system. I just find the old system much more reliable from one aspect. from another it created a certain balance to the game. characters like natsu, maxi, xiba, viola couldnt just hammer at you with a million hits till they land one .. it was a way to more or less balance that kind of madness ... (again please understand that I am not hating on the game... ). just guard is affective yes. but will you consistently see it ? hardly, unless its an easy read from a move with a slow start up and alot of active frames.

Think about this, at neutral, I can always get held. I can throw out a 10 frame jab that only does 10 damage, is safe on block and hit, and doesn't guarantee me anything afterwards. It's a low risk move with almost no reward so I should be safe, right? Nope. My opponent can always, always hold me for significantly more damage. He can hold before I throw out the punch, he can hold during the punch, he can hold on the 10th frame on reaction and I've lost. What was my "stupid decision" in this scenario? Attacking! The stupidest thing you can do in DOA is attack your opponent because you're putting yourself out there to be held. You don't see the lack of logic here? What's a high level DOA match look like? Two opponents out-spacing each other and the other person either baiting a hold by throwing a punch or waiting for them to attack so I can block and throw. Both players know that whoever attacks first is the loser, so neither one wants to attack. Again, do you not see the lack of logic here?

it just isnt as simple as you put it. the mind game is far more complex. and there is a logic to the hold system.
and you can be quite agressive in DOA if you know what you're doing. as you progress through the game you're game plan will eventually be alot more "calculated". you might not press as many buttons but you will know what to press and when.

Hubbs suggested this at some point and I agree that they should remove the blocking from a button. If Team Ninja wants to go back and refer to it as the hold button, they should remove the ability to block from it so you have to hold and to block. "It won't be DOA any more!" There are these games called DOA1 and DOA++, look them up some time.

I dont think its as simple as that. again there is a reason for having both.
you wont be able to crouch or jump if the H button wasnt block as well. if you remove that property you will end up losing the 8wayrun movement.

also .. having the direction as block as well would allow to input a hold while blocking. granted you can do this by double tapping. but its just alot easier having both especially during a crouch.

What's your definition of a "combo?" By definition, a combo is a set of attacks that are guaranteed to hit the opponent after an initial hit connects. If I can hold out of it, it's not a combo.

by your logic, then every Guilty gear combo that you can burst out of (basicly every combo) is not a combo. same thing goes for blazblue. does that make those games not deep enough as well ?

Again, losing the "no depth, titty fighter" title isn't something to cry about. If you want to play Rock, Paper, Scissors over and over but are afraid of losing the anime nyuu~~~ girls then just draw those chibi kawaii desu ne?? girls on your hands when you play. You don't need an Xbox for that shit.

why thank you for being completely shallow. here I am trying to have a logical discussion only to be faced with this kind of attitude.. classy

Obviously you dont like the game or how it flows. and you've been having this consistent problem for years n years. so, please explain to me, why are you in this forum ? why are you complaining ? if you dont like the game that much and are bashing it at its core then why are you even playing it ?

again, there are no set rules to any game format. every game can handle in whichever way it likes. but turning all games into the same thing is by no means a sign of progress, or viability or depth.

 

[DrDogg]

My issues with the demo in consolidated form:

- Camera Shake: The movement of the camera when a danger zone is activated is VERY distracting. Maybe it's just me, but I am not a fan of this at all. In competitive MK, there's a stage that shakes in a lesser fashion. It's banned from tournament play because of the shaking.

- Attacking out of Block: If I'm holding block I'd like to be just blocking and nothing else. I find myself getting counterholds and attacking because I move the stick or press a button while I'm holding block. Granted, some of these input errors are because you can press anything in SC5 while holding block and you'll still just block, which is what I'm accustomed to at the moment. However, I feel very restricted when I'm blocking and I'm constantly afraid to do anything because I keep getting random counters. I don't think there's an advantage to negating block by pressing another input so it'd be nice if they removed this.

- Inclines: I'm not a fan of inclines in fighting games, but I wouldn't complain about minor inclines. In the demo, there are drastic inclines after the danger zones are activated. I personally think it's a bit too much.

- Random Items: Please remove random items falling on the characters once a danger zone is active. (I think you can disable this in options, but I'm putting it here just in case you can't.)

Overall, the game does not feel competitive to me at all. Yes, there are times I can't counter, but it doesn't make a difference because they're not frequent enough. I never feel safe attacking and I always feel like I can guess my way out of my opponent's offense. I would not travel for a DOA5 tournament if the system mechanics remain as they are in the demo.

 

[Rikuto]

Then there would be no point in using them. The damage on them is fine.

Until it works from stun.

Which is where everyone uses it from.

Hmmm... how odd that this subject keeps popping up, eh Raansu? You might even say its the root of every problem....

 

[Raansu]

Until it works from stun.

Which is where everyone uses it from.

Hmmm... how odd that this subject keeps popping up, eh Raansu? You might even say its the root of every problem....

It's because you keep bringing it up and we keep telling you that it is not the root of the problem and you know damn well that it isnt. We get it, you want a broken ass game where you so much as fucking sneeze and you get a critical hit. What you want would be broken. I could get 15 hit combo's and take half your life before you could even blink.

Unless they completely alter the stun system to something like short staggers and where critical would rarely happen (which would then grant a guaranteed launch), removing holds completely with the current system would break the integrity of the triangle system, simple as that. I want more setups that remove the hold from stun and I would love if the stun system was changed, but as is, what you want would be broken.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Yes, they need to completely rework the stun system in order to accommodate a fixed up hold system. Who said otherwise?

 

[Berzerk!]

Added DrDogg's feedback to first post. Please point out any others I missed or anything I should clean up.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Just like to tone down active hold frames, they'll need to change the ability to delay every single string for so long. Think about it, why are active frames 22/20/18? Well, because I can delay (insert string) for that long. The ability to delay strings is also another guessing scenario that needs to be fixed. You can't tell if someone free canceled a string or is delaying it and you're afraid to attempt to punish accordingly because if you guess wrong then you're screwed.

 

[grap3fruitman]

how does the game exactly have no depth ? please elaborate.

The whole "everything is a guess" gameplay? There's no depth in trying to out-guess your opponent constantly.

you cant compare power blows to supers. power blows are easily punishable and have extremely long start up.

None of what you just said applies to either Supers or Critical Edges, right? They're both extremely safe and come out instantly, right?

yes I do acctually. why should a game reward you for losing ?

...Did you not read your own wall of text where you defended counter holds to the death? You're for one type of comeback factor but not another? That's hypocritical.

as I mentioned before, power blows arent as free as you seem to think. I think the fight trailers may be a bit misleading. like I said you can easily react to them by a counter or even a side step ...

I wasn't talking about Power Blows. We're arguing about counters. Pay attention. Emperor Cow participates in class but does not follow directions.

I think I wasnt clear about this.

You were plenty clear. You're just missing the sarcasm in much of my responses, they tend to be italicized.

it just isnt as simple as you put it. the mind game is far more complex. and there is a logic to the hold system.

What's the logic in giving everyone access to a move that:

• comes out instantly
• has up to ten times the active frames of other moves
• has the least recovery out of all moves
• does at least as much or more damage than most moves
• can be performed in almost any scenario, including in stun, which you can't attack or throw out of

Please explain this magical "logic" because I'm not seeing it.

and you can be quite agressive in DOA if you know what you're doing. as you progress through the game you're game plan will eventually be alot more "calculated". you might not press as many buttons but you will know what to press and when.

Yeah, here's my game-plan for DOA:

• if I attack and get held, I lose
• if I attack and get blocked, I get thrown and I lose

There's your aggression.

I dont think its as simple as that. again there is a reason for having both.
you wont be able to crouch or jump if the H button wasnt block as well. if you remove that property you will end up losing the 8wayrun movement.

You could jump and crouch in the games I listed, DOA1 and DOA++. So why wouldn't you be able to here? In DOA2 as well, and were block, in addition to , but that didn't stop people from crouching, jumping or moving freely throughout the environment. Why would that be the case here?

also .. having the direction as block as well would allow to input a hold while blocking. granted you can do this by double tapping. but its just alot easier having both especially during a crouch.

They should make it like DOA1 and DOA++ where you could have to return to neutral first.

by your logic, then every Guilty gear combo that you can burst out of (basicly every combo) is not a combo. same thing goes for blazblue. does that make those games not deep enough as well ?

I'm not familiar with those games but that's not my logic, that's the definition of a combo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_(video_gaming)

In fighting games, combo specifically indicates a timed sequence of moves which produce a cohesive series of hits. The combo requires that an initial hit connects. This hit is then followed by an often predetermined sequence of other hits, each of which leaves the opponent unable or almost unable to block or otherwise avoid the following hit(s) in the sequence.

why thank you for being completely shallow. here I am trying to have a logical discussion only to be faced with this kind of attitude.. classy

You don't seem to be trying very hard. I still made a valid point, regardless of delivery. DOA is Rock, Paper, Scissors to the tenth power.

Obviously you dont like the game or how it flows. and you've been having this consistent problem for years n years. so, please explain to me, why are you in this forum ? why are you complaining ? if you dont like the game that much and are bashing it at its core then why are you even playing it ?

Oh great, instead of trying to get DOA fixed, I should just go somewhere else? Great idea! With people like you, DOA will always be shit. Clearly there are things I like about DOA, that doesn't mean I don't want all the broken shit to stay broken.

again, there are no set rules to any game format. every game can handle in whichever way it likes. but turning all games into the same thing is by no means a sign of progress, or viability or depth.

Where are you getting this idea that we're trying to turn DOA into a different fighter? You named several different fighters that all follow the same basic rules that DOA doesn't. Are those fighters all the same? Blazblue, Street Fighter, and Soul Calibur? They all follow the same basic logic but they're entirely different experiences. Why would fixing basic flaws in DOA suddenly make it not DOA?

 

[ShinMaruku]

Yes, they need to completely rework the stun system in order to accommodate a fixed up hold system. Who said otherwise?

They need to fix more than that. Rework stuns leave a big chunk of the system in shambles. Although that would be a good thing. Some times one must tear down old foundations and start anew. If that makes it now DOA but makes it a better game, I say fuck the old doa this is a new one.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Yes, they need to completely rework the stun system in order to accommodate a fixed up hold system. Who said otherwise?

- I actually do not think they have to do anything drastic to the stun system. All they have to do to stuns is decrease their frequency back to Doa2/3 levels.

Just like to tone down active hold frames, they'll need to change the ability to delay every single string for so long. Think about it, why are active frames 22/20/18? Well, because I can delay (insert string) for that long. The ability to delay strings is also another guessing scenario that needs to be fixed. You can't tell if someone free canceled a string or is delaying it and you're afraid to attempt to punish accordingly because if you guess wrong then you're screwed.

-All they have to do is reduce the hold's active frames, increase the recovery(Make them like 0/12/23) and reduce the amount of attacks that can be held.

 

[Rikuto]

It's because you keep bringing it up and we keep telling you that it is not the root of the problem and you know damn well that it isnt. We get it, you want a broken ass game where you so much as fucking sneeze and you get a critical hit. What you want would be broken. I could get 15 hit combo's and take half your life before you could even blink.

I'm not seeing the problem. Half life is what i call "getting off easy".

Then again, you don't play fighters competitively, so perhaps you have some flawed concepts about what makes something broken -- right along with the rest of the DOA community.

And yes, it really is the root of the doa problem. Almost every problem in the game can be traced back to holds in stun.

Unbreakable throws? Only necessary because of holds in stun.

Lopsided risk vs reward? Holds in stun.

Nearly every situation being a 50/50? Holds in stun.

Strings being universally delayable which makes it impossible to react and punish anything after they free cancel? Only necessary because of holds in stun.

Hayabusa is a complete faggot? Holds in stun.

Stun system is a complete fucking mess? Designed that way specifically since doa 4 because of holds in stun.

Game can't get a scene for the life of it and has a horrible reputation? Holds in stun.

Sorry, you lose. I know you like having at least one fighter you can be decent at, and I'm sorry the idea of making it difficult to beat other players scares you, but if you aren't planning on playing it competitively to begin with you really don't have any ground to try and argue with me about its competitive mechanics.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I would think this game would go beyond the old community and maybe make some of them obsolete that would be a noble goal for team Ninja.

 

[Rikuto]

I would think this game would go beyond the old community and maybe make some of them obsolete that would be a noble goal for team Ninja.

So what you're saying is you want them to piss everyone off?

They are off to a good start. Not a very unrealistic goal at this rate.

 

[ShinMaruku]

If they get a good game I don't think they'd be pissed off. And if they are a toxic element would you not have them cast off?

 

[Rikuto]

Depends who you are referring to.

When I'm talking to certain people recently, I get the idea that a "good" game would scare them shitless.

Then again, the slashfic writing casuals will always linger regardless of what team ninja does. /shrug

 

[Hurricane Rev]

I am really liking the demo at the moment and in my honest opinion, I really to do think that the game can be taking seriously. Although, I've heard quite a few people saying that this game is like a mini game, which I LOL'd about. Yes, there are random things that hits you while you fighting on the stage but that is because you are punching your opponents towards the selves, where all the stuffs is at. Also, I think that things coming down and hit you makes it a bit more excitement into a match. It can be a distraction but it makes it more challenging and you can easily side step the falling items. Even more, it makes it more realistic.

I believe the only way for team ninja to fix the falling items is by allowing you to block the falling items.