DOA In Dallas (D.I.D.) #7 June 10th-12th! $500 Guaranteed!

[virtuaPAI]

Why?

(And don't you see it's already a kissing cousin - the two games are very similar. What would have, a stiff fighter like Tekken or a fluid, skillful game that rewards intelligent play more than the ability to dial a combo?)

-The basic core fundamentals of both games are similar, however, both games follow different philosophies. The difference in these philosophies cause for radically different games. Doa will do best going down its own path.

I'm not saying the way they tested was right, but it wasn't because vf players are inherently the wring people to speak to, it's that they didn't take the time to compare those opinions to firm design goals or bring the players in early enough to understand the differences in the two.
Vf is still the best model game there is for a fighter if this type, but you can't take lip service and make changes.
You need players well versed in what Doa is supposed to be and most importantly fully iterate the testing. Then Feedback from other games can be meaningful

-That is exactly it. VF players are inherently the wrong people to balance test Doa. That is like Tekken players balance testing VF. The logic behind it is fallible. Only High level Doa players will have the understanding of the game to properly provide input towards balance testing. Back in 2002, I went to dinner with the NY Vf crew. Present were a couple of High Level Japanese players. I asked the question of why Doa3 get slack? I was told because Doa3 did not have any form of SS. WTF! There are character specific SS maneuvers as well as Free step dodging. Answers like this prove that they know nothing of Doa except the basics. These are not people that should ever balance test Doa. EVER.

 

[Gill Hustle]

Hmm, It's like when Capcom tried to balance the SNK characters in CVS2 . . . which explains why THAT is a shitty game.

I'll duck from the flames riiiight now.

 

[Berzerk!]

VP, I agree with what you're saying there, but it goes to my point that testers should first and foremost have a strong understanding of DOA itself. But building on that, if they are versed in other games, VF is the best comparable.

It's more for the designers to critically assess feedback, though, which it seems they didn't do well.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Ha at the thought that these are "flames" .

 

[Raansu]

I feel like slamming my head on the table every time I read a post from Berzerk.

 

[Allan Paris]

I feel like slamming my head on the table every time I read a post from Berzerk.

Hahahaha, well damn.

 

[Berzerk!]

I feel like slamming my head on the table every time I read a post from Berzerk.

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. Is it because you miss the point?

 

[Raansu]

It's because you constantly try to make logic out of something that has no logic to it.

 

[Berzerk!]

Thank you - case closed. You COMPLETELY missed the point and are running on preconceived ideas. If you're saying TN's use of VF testers had no logic to it, I agree - but my reasoning is not what you've assumed.

That is, that getting feedback or learnings from VF is FINE, except if they didn't put the proper time and analysis into it, nor, seemingly did they compensate for the fact these players didn't understand DOA fundamentals.

Now what I'm saying is that this kind of feedback CAN be useful of Team Ninja actually do it over a proper timeline with people familiar with BOTH games, as there really is still plenty to learn from VF - it's a rock solid game that has been iterated and improved upon far more than DOA. I'll see if I can expand on the why's and wherefores of this if I get the time.

I've played Final Showdown when I was in Japan and it's a damn near perfect game. The refinement of the mechanics and importantly, the character balance, and the smart way each character has been given powerful, useful tools without balance issues, should be studied.

Of course Team Ninja should learn from this, and improve upon the things that Sega does poorly, such as community support, storyline, online modes, etc.

Now suggesting DOA can learn from VF may seem strange coming from someone who defends DOA4 as not as bad as everyone says, but that just shows again how I've been misunderstood.

Its a reminder I should speak more simply to some people.

 

[Raansu]

*slams head on table* You are still doing it.

 

[Berzerk!]

Wow, I guess I should just agree "duh, Team Ninja is so stupid, what they do make no sense"

 

[Raansu]

Ugh go back and read what VP said, I see no point in repeating it. If you don't get it, well... sorry.

I get what you are trying to say, but you continue to try to make logic out of something that has no logic. You constantly bounce around trying to stay in some neutral form but end up not being neutral and just going in circles with something that ends with no logic to it.

 

[Berzerk!]

I read it. You're not comprehending what I've written. I disagree that you have to assume testers can ONLY be versed in one game. I agree that if they ONLY know VF or any other game and not DOA, they won't serve much use. Absolutely, you need testers that understand your game.

My expanded point, and I don't see how this is contentious, is that Team Ninja should be looking to players who understand more than just DOA. (I also made the simple point that they should have taken more time to analyse the feedback they got and compensate for the knowledge of the testers. It was clearly rushed.)

Why point to VF? Man, so many reasons. Lets just mention the process of building on mechanics. For one if you want to say 3.1 is something they can go back to and expand upon; well Sega have been through this with Virtua Fighter, having changed the game significantly in VF3, and finding they needed to roll back a little more towards the style of VF2 when they made VF4 and went from there.

The resulting game is the most refined in the whole fighting genre. There are tons of pieces in other fighting games (not just mechanics) that Team Ninja need to look at for Dead or Alive, and think about how to integrate the best things in "a Dead or Alive way".

I cite VF because I play both DOA and VF and see the smart design features they have as common ground. I disagree that they are radically different. Elements of one can be adapted and made useful for the other. This is a design issue though, I don't disagree about it being poorly tested regarding the X05 version.

The important thing is they are listening now and it IS early in the process. I'd like to hear more from the discussions with TN.

 

[Awesmic]

Berserk, I'll let you in on a little secret.

This is Raansu's way of saying he likes you.

 

[Rikuto]

VF testers interference resulted in the overall destruction of a steadily advancing fighting game franchise.

Whether or not VF itself has any features that would "work well" with DOA is moot, because clearly the testers themselves, who were very well versed with VF, couldn't find any applicable way to insert them without destroying the game, so they went ahead and found a new way to destroy the game out of ignorance.

That's really the bottom line here.

DOA 5 needs seasoned DOA players to test it.

Not just Tekken players, not just VF players. DOA players.

That is the only way it will ever improve.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Look at what we got when they went for "DOA players" with Dimensions.

 

[Rikuto]

Look at what we got when they went for "DOA players" with Dimensions.

derp?

DOA 5 needs seasoned DOA players to test it.

Japan doesn't have any. That was the problem.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Accompanied with the fake "location test" with the American "champions".

 

[Berzerk!]

Awesomic: I realise I was being trolled, but at least I could clear up what I was communicating.
Back to topic...

Japan doesn't have any. That was the problem.

Good point. This is a pretty good reason to have a crack at releasing DOA5 into Japanese arcades - it will be played more in Japan this way and they can assess players crossing over from other games. Then 6months down the line, update and test for home market, and involve Western DOA players in some way.

The location test was clearly a marketing exercise, but do we know if any changes were implemented as a result? Did anyone ask TN what they learned from it?

 

[Rikuto]

Awesomic: I realise I was being trolled, but at least I could clear up what I was communicating.
Back to topic...

Good point. This is a pretty good reason to have a crack at releasing DOA5 into Japanese arcades - it will be played more in Japan this way and they can assess players crossing over from other games. Then 6months down the line, update and test for home market, and involve Western DOA players in some way.

The location test was clearly a marketing exercise, but do we know if any changes were implemented as a result? Did anyone ask TN what they learned from it?

ughh. . . in six months, the japanese are still going to be terrible.

No, what they need to is get U.S. testers over there. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[KoF06]

Japan doesn't have any. That was the problem.

You wrong, there are a community and until last year they did a tournament regularly.
But I agree there are pretty discreet.

If Team Ninja do a doa5 like doa3 I think only american will enjoy it.

However, if they want to be differentiate with VF, they just have to improve tag mode
Because even tekken tag 2 or other game don't have a tag interesting like DoA in my opinion (just mine I know everybody doesn't care about this mode lol)