DOA5LR Ayane General Gameplay Discussion
- Thread starter iHajinShinobi
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No problem! 3H+K is really good!
Actually this is not true, H+K is very good as a spacing tool, works just like Momiji's H+K except it's i16 frames and has more range and more reward. You're not really supposed to put it out in spaces where it'll be blocked, you want to put it out in spaces where you predict/read the opponent will move to do something so you can occupy that amount of space.
You can punish whiffed strike/string get-in attempts with H+K as well for good counter hit reward.
H+K will actually stuff a lot of different high and mid strike attempt approaches if you use it with precision. It is a mix up with 3H+K, 3P, 5K and 33P as a longer range moves.
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I find that 5H+K may require a bit more precision to be used as a whiff punishment tool, though when it connects on CH, the opponent is going for a ride. I tend to favour 4K or 3PP for whiff punishment generally, though 3H+K is a solid option too thanks to its range and safety, though its reward is not necessarily as good as the other options unless it hits the opponent in relative close range.
H+K, 236K and 4K work this way with reactive whiff punishment. Both 3H+K and BT6K are great tools to occupy the space you are trying to control. Same with 3P and a 6P/6P3. And the thing about BT6K is that it has absolutely no negatives about it. +0 to +1 on block, +4 on neutral hit with push back, sitdown stun on counter hit and threshold. You can use BT4H+K for the same reasons as 3H+K and BT6K.
The reward from 3H+K at a far distance is running K (drill kick). The reward is knock back + good positioning.
Whiff punishment is not always about max damage, it is solely about punishing a whiffed move by any means. Max damage comes from a terrible whiff or stronger read. You utilize each of your options for every and varying situation, otherwise you are limiting your opportunity for reward.
Anyone find any new or interesting tech as of late? Looking for someone else to get the ball rolling this time since I'm always initiating this particular discussion.
You guys play as much as I do so I'm open to hearing where your lab time goes.
You guys play as much as I do so I'm open to hearing where your lab time goes.
What were you going to try out?
If by some dumb luck you happen to land a 2T on a BT crouching opponent, you can do P+KP3(whiff)P for a nice launcher as they're getting up, also 236H+K from a distance into a rope gets Ayane like +42 so you can p/ much get almost every launcher she has, as well as a BT6K if you're close enough.
Yes you can get a mix up or launcher from drill kick after a rope bounce on a front turned opponent. However, do keep in mind that they still have the ability to hold so nothing you do as you attempt to go back turned stance will connect. They can block beforehand.
As for P+KP3(w)P after 2T on BT crouching state opponents, that's basically dropping damage for no reward.
As for P+KP3(w)P after 2T on BT crouching state opponents, that's basically dropping damage for no reward.
Well, I can share a set up I developed a couple months ago.
Any hit, whether neutral or counter hit stun into 4K at critical level 1 ground bounce > PK > BT3K.
Ground hits for +18 if they don't tech up, BT3KKK will force them up for +12 if they linger on the ground. BT3 leaves you at +24 if they tech up, BT3K counter hits all strike button press attempts. This okizeme set up forces the opponent to be scared of BT3K, which will make BT3 spin a good mix up in general.
The point of this is to create momentum, it's doing two things;
Controlling the pace of the match and controlling the ground game. Mix ups are just more imaginative, you are at +24 if they tech the BT3, so that's a lot of advantage to inspire mix up.
Any hit, whether neutral or counter hit stun into 4K at critical level 1 ground bounce > PK > BT3K.
Ground hits for +18 if they don't tech up, BT3KKK will force them up for +12 if they linger on the ground. BT3 leaves you at +24 if they tech up, BT3K counter hits all strike button press attempts. This okizeme set up forces the opponent to be scared of BT3K, which will make BT3 spin a good mix up in general.
The point of this is to create momentum, it's doing two things;
Controlling the pace of the match and controlling the ground game. Mix ups are just more imaginative, you are at +24 if they tech the BT3, so that's a lot of advantage to inspire mix up.
Gotten back to comparing Vanilla Ayane to 5U and LR Ayane.
Changes from Vanilla to LR are as follows, and I'm going to explain a bit about what was good about V.Ayane and Ayane now and what was bad about V.Ayane compared to Ayane now.
3PP could be delayed up to 36 frames, 3PK could be delayed up to 43 frames. 3PP's delay was shortened by 8 frames, it can be delayed up to 28 in 5U/LR. Same with 3PK, shortened by 8 frames, it can be delayed up to 35 frames.
Every variant of 2H+K low in threshold gave +23 stun, which was really good. This was actually really strong considering she has at least 3 different strings that have a 2H+K. She is left with +15 at fastest SE, which gave her a lot of options both high and mid, forcing another deeper 50/50.
64T > 3P created a immense 50/50 vortex off of itself that would always force you to guess mid or low. The mid launches, the low gives a solid stun. Thus forcing you into a must-hold situation that can let her throw you and do it all over again. Put that in conjunction with EVERYTHING I've ever developed with 64T, it's basically being trapped in a spider web that you can never escape from.
6K2K works exactly the same way as the 3PK in that situation, still works the exact same way even now. However, in 5U the 2H+K variants are +18, +11 at fastest SE. You won't get a guaranteed 50/50 stun mix up but what you do get is the ability to not allow opponents to press buttons because of the 6K2K frustration strategies you can implement as an offense.
6P used to be 22 damage on neutral hit, coupled with everything else it can already do, it was quite possibly one of the better neutral mid punches in Vanilla due to its damage base outmatching others, especially with frame advantage. 6P receiving the base of 18 was a good balance choice because it has so many options off of itself and it has so much utility and mix up. While also not being an overpowered single strike mid.
In Vanilla, 6P3 was -13 on neutral hit, -15 on block. In 5U/LR, it is -5 on neutral hit and -7 on block, that makes a huge difference. You could pop her with a mid for free just for blocking 6P3. You can't do that at all unless you have an i11 mid, in 5U/LR on block. In addition, 9P3 was -10 on neutral hit and -12 on block in Vanilla. It is -2 on neutral hit and -4 on block in 5U/LR lol.
This alone will show you that 6P is a lot better with all of it's application in 5U/LR than it is in Vanilla. Not to mention that 6PK's damage base increased from 26 to 30 in 5U, making it much better as a wall combo ender, and a stronger poke.
6PK is infact one of Ayane's best strings and pokes, hands down. You have a mid punch that high crushes jabs at initial frames, has good range and movement cancel ability. It also has a pretty good mid range follow up that gives a knockdown and is range safe on block at -5 to -6, you cannot punish this by any means. It is -7 on block up close and not truly throw punishable either versus strikers.
Let's look at 3H+K;
In Vanilla, it is +0 on block, a sitdown stun on "neutral and counter hit" and will guarantee 70+ on any character if you follow up with BT6P > 66KK4 BT7K.
Really good tool, strong infact. But limited.
3H+K was limited to being used as more of just a range tool than anything else simply because it'll knock you down in the critical stun threshold or hi counter hit. Not allowing any SDS (sitdowns stun) or juggle opportunity. And that was totally fine since it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
But in 5U/LR, 3H+K actually is a lot stronger because it isn't limited to just it's range tool capability. It did the above except its a bound knockdown in 5U/LR, which creates more opportunities that will cater to varying situations.
You can juggle and gain better positioning, you can do this in Vanilla, but you can't use a BT4P~K as you can in 5U/LR and that string gives a lot more knockback distance than it did in Vanilla. So that lets you rack up more damage when environments are concerned. You can even create OTG frame traps involving possible unholdables and other really good okizeme situations as well. That 3H+K in Vanilla will never allow, you only had one situation where it was an untechable but that wasn't a guaranteed situation, at all.
3H+K's damage base in 5U/LR is better as well, it's 26, it is 23 in Vanilla. 3H+K in 5U/LR became another launcher with more damage opportunity and it is ridiculous what it offers on the Danger Zone stage. It creates an auto-knockdown situation that forces the opponent to guess between a hard knockdown or an untechable knockdown, without visually seeing any difference.
Read that underlined sentence again, because no one else in this game can do that from the amount of testing I've done so far. This character's bound knockdown happens on neutral hit, counter AND hi counter hit. It never changes unless it hits on a wall to cause a wall slam. You will always get good damage+positioning OR good damage AND oki+positioning.
64T in 5U/LR was better, because you cannot do anything to escape a 4P+K launch to make the launch height smaller. You could do this in Vanilla by trying to crouch high jabs with your back turned. Characters like Bayman and Leifang could also parry your high/mid options after 64T as well, so that throw was pretty bad against them and shouldn't have been.
Ayane's neutral game is also much MUCH better in 5U/LR as well. P4P really did make such a big difference. You have all of your options you have now, in Vanilla, however, you never had an option that went high -> mid. So Ayane actually did not have an option to limit the opponent's button press other than P mix ups and PP delays without any way to truly make someone scared of interrupting/disrespecting you. P4P has solved that issue.
Not only that, but P4P also has a lot of utility outside of what's mentioned above. It is a safe string at -5, -4 at range. The mid has a damage base of 22 and a lot of range, making it a reliable poke and a great way to feint with jab at any distance.
It provides a great mix up on block and in stun with everything that has to do with jab mix ups. 7P flip is hella fast in 5U/LR, it is sloooooooooooow in Vanilla. Jab, PP, PP delays, P BT T, P BT8P, P BT6K, P4P, etc. All became guess heavy for the blocking opponent because jab already forces you to guess anyway. But the fact that P4P cannot be interrupted by strikes or offensive holds at all implies you have to guess at the jab free cancel or something else. And 9 times out of 10, you are going to be wrong because blocking jab is not favorable for the blocking opponent, at all.
P4P can be delayed up to i21 frames, and you still cannot interrupt it with a strike or offensive hold. Because of this, things like P BT T and P BT6K for example, become more guess heavy work on the opponent once you've trained them with jab mix ups and good existence of P4P.
I'll cut this short for now, but the only bits about Vanilla Ayane I appreciate is that 6P base being 22 was great, 3H+K being a long range frame trap was great. H+K variants being +23 was awesome and 3P's delay was stupidly strong.
But everything else Ayane has in 5U/LR makes her a much better character. A more complete character, 64T cannot be escaped at all and she gets more guaranteed damage on it on the entire roster in LR. Not to mention 6P being stronger on BT opponnets gives her more stupid 50/50s and possible vortex situations. Side step P+K existing makes her side step amazing, her mix up stronger, adds another layer of movement ability, and her okizeme became scary at the wall because she is always forcing 4 options on you no matter what.
I'll finish sharing other comparisons at some point. But just know that Ayane basically received balance changes that benefit her and actually made sense. Not just any random buff or nerfs. She literally went from being an already strong character, to an even stronger character. What makes this hard to believe at times, however, is her steep learning curve and how truly difficult it is to play her at a high level.
You must have a high/whole understanding of her play ability and really know your match ups and the opponent well in order to have any kind of success against strong opponents.
I will say this though, Ayane's biggest momentum opportunities comes from the knockdown and knockbacks. Because once she runs at you, her options skyrocket and Ayane running towards you is one of the scariest things in this game. Run up throw coupled with other options is super strong.
Changes from Vanilla to LR are as follows, and I'm going to explain a bit about what was good about V.Ayane and Ayane now and what was bad about V.Ayane compared to Ayane now.
3PP could be delayed up to 36 frames, 3PK could be delayed up to 43 frames. 3PP's delay was shortened by 8 frames, it can be delayed up to 28 in 5U/LR. Same with 3PK, shortened by 8 frames, it can be delayed up to 35 frames.
Every variant of 2H+K low in threshold gave +23 stun, which was really good. This was actually really strong considering she has at least 3 different strings that have a 2H+K. She is left with +15 at fastest SE, which gave her a lot of options both high and mid, forcing another deeper 50/50.
64T > 3P created a immense 50/50 vortex off of itself that would always force you to guess mid or low. The mid launches, the low gives a solid stun. Thus forcing you into a must-hold situation that can let her throw you and do it all over again. Put that in conjunction with EVERYTHING I've ever developed with 64T, it's basically being trapped in a spider web that you can never escape from.
6K2K works exactly the same way as the 3PK in that situation, still works the exact same way even now. However, in 5U the 2H+K variants are +18, +11 at fastest SE. You won't get a guaranteed 50/50 stun mix up but what you do get is the ability to not allow opponents to press buttons because of the 6K2K frustration strategies you can implement as an offense.
6P used to be 22 damage on neutral hit, coupled with everything else it can already do, it was quite possibly one of the better neutral mid punches in Vanilla due to its damage base outmatching others, especially with frame advantage. 6P receiving the base of 18 was a good balance choice because it has so many options off of itself and it has so much utility and mix up. While also not being an overpowered single strike mid.
In Vanilla, 6P3 was -13 on neutral hit, -15 on block. In 5U/LR, it is -5 on neutral hit and -7 on block, that makes a huge difference. You could pop her with a mid for free just for blocking 6P3. You can't do that at all unless you have an i11 mid, in 5U/LR on block. In addition, 9P3 was -10 on neutral hit and -12 on block in Vanilla. It is -2 on neutral hit and -4 on block in 5U/LR lol.
This alone will show you that 6P is a lot better with all of it's application in 5U/LR than it is in Vanilla. Not to mention that 6PK's damage base increased from 26 to 30 in 5U, making it much better as a wall combo ender, and a stronger poke.
6PK is infact one of Ayane's best strings and pokes, hands down. You have a mid punch that high crushes jabs at initial frames, has good range and movement cancel ability. It also has a pretty good mid range follow up that gives a knockdown and is range safe on block at -5 to -6, you cannot punish this by any means. It is -7 on block up close and not truly throw punishable either versus strikers.
Let's look at 3H+K;
In Vanilla, it is +0 on block, a sitdown stun on "neutral and counter hit" and will guarantee 70+ on any character if you follow up with BT6P > 66KK4 BT7K.
Really good tool, strong infact. But limited.
3H+K was limited to being used as more of just a range tool than anything else simply because it'll knock you down in the critical stun threshold or hi counter hit. Not allowing any SDS (sitdowns stun) or juggle opportunity. And that was totally fine since it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
But in 5U/LR, 3H+K actually is a lot stronger because it isn't limited to just it's range tool capability. It did the above except its a bound knockdown in 5U/LR, which creates more opportunities that will cater to varying situations.
You can juggle and gain better positioning, you can do this in Vanilla, but you can't use a BT4P~K as you can in 5U/LR and that string gives a lot more knockback distance than it did in Vanilla. So that lets you rack up more damage when environments are concerned. You can even create OTG frame traps involving possible unholdables and other really good okizeme situations as well. That 3H+K in Vanilla will never allow, you only had one situation where it was an untechable but that wasn't a guaranteed situation, at all.
3H+K's damage base in 5U/LR is better as well, it's 26, it is 23 in Vanilla. 3H+K in 5U/LR became another launcher with more damage opportunity and it is ridiculous what it offers on the Danger Zone stage. It creates an auto-knockdown situation that forces the opponent to guess between a hard knockdown or an untechable knockdown, without visually seeing any difference.
Read that underlined sentence again, because no one else in this game can do that from the amount of testing I've done so far. This character's bound knockdown happens on neutral hit, counter AND hi counter hit. It never changes unless it hits on a wall to cause a wall slam. You will always get good damage+positioning OR good damage AND oki+positioning.
64T in 5U/LR was better, because you cannot do anything to escape a 4P+K launch to make the launch height smaller. You could do this in Vanilla by trying to crouch high jabs with your back turned. Characters like Bayman and Leifang could also parry your high/mid options after 64T as well, so that throw was pretty bad against them and shouldn't have been.
Ayane's neutral game is also much MUCH better in 5U/LR as well. P4P really did make such a big difference. You have all of your options you have now, in Vanilla, however, you never had an option that went high -> mid. So Ayane actually did not have an option to limit the opponent's button press other than P mix ups and PP delays without any way to truly make someone scared of interrupting/disrespecting you. P4P has solved that issue.
Not only that, but P4P also has a lot of utility outside of what's mentioned above. It is a safe string at -5, -4 at range. The mid has a damage base of 22 and a lot of range, making it a reliable poke and a great way to feint with jab at any distance.
It provides a great mix up on block and in stun with everything that has to do with jab mix ups. 7P flip is hella fast in 5U/LR, it is sloooooooooooow in Vanilla. Jab, PP, PP delays, P BT T, P BT8P, P BT6K, P4P, etc. All became guess heavy for the blocking opponent because jab already forces you to guess anyway. But the fact that P4P cannot be interrupted by strikes or offensive holds at all implies you have to guess at the jab free cancel or something else. And 9 times out of 10, you are going to be wrong because blocking jab is not favorable for the blocking opponent, at all.
P4P can be delayed up to i21 frames, and you still cannot interrupt it with a strike or offensive hold. Because of this, things like P BT T and P BT6K for example, become more guess heavy work on the opponent once you've trained them with jab mix ups and good existence of P4P.
I'll cut this short for now, but the only bits about Vanilla Ayane I appreciate is that 6P base being 22 was great, 3H+K being a long range frame trap was great. H+K variants being +23 was awesome and 3P's delay was stupidly strong.
But everything else Ayane has in 5U/LR makes her a much better character. A more complete character, 64T cannot be escaped at all and she gets more guaranteed damage on it on the entire roster in LR. Not to mention 6P being stronger on BT opponnets gives her more stupid 50/50s and possible vortex situations. Side step P+K existing makes her side step amazing, her mix up stronger, adds another layer of movement ability, and her okizeme became scary at the wall because she is always forcing 4 options on you no matter what.
I'll finish sharing other comparisons at some point. But just know that Ayane basically received balance changes that benefit her and actually made sense. Not just any random buff or nerfs. She literally went from being an already strong character, to an even stronger character. What makes this hard to believe at times, however, is her steep learning curve and how truly difficult it is to play her at a high level.
You must have a high/whole understanding of her play ability and really know your match ups and the opponent well in order to have any kind of success against strong opponents.
I will say this though, Ayane's biggest momentum opportunities comes from the knockdown and knockbacks. Because once she runs at you, her options skyrocket and Ayane running towards you is one of the scariest things in this game. Run up throw coupled with other options is super strong.
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Lulu
Well-Known Member
I gave up Ayane last week, I just felt like I hit a brick wall because I just couldn't keep track of which moves keep changing my orientation.
I think its because I lack adaptability, so moddifying my strategy mid stance usually ends in a disaster.
I love that BT launch kick though, I wish Tina had one.
I think its because I lack adaptability, so moddifying my strategy mid stance usually ends in a disaster.
I love that BT launch kick though, I wish Tina had one.
I'm going to be doing a live stream tutorial of Ayane on May 23, 2015 at 5pm PST. So maybe you can tune into that to get a grasp of the character, if you like.
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Lulu
Well-Known Member
I skimmed over it..... I will experiment with tommorrow. Thanks.