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3-Point Hold v. 4-Point Hold

matsu

matsu

Member
Rikuto said:
If holds are going to be used in stun they need to be an absolute last-line-of-defense desperation thing that is not thrown out all willy-nilly like it is now. And it needs to be used to stop an advance, not get a big damaging return.

If anything, we need lots of special stuns in this game to "break" the hold system in different ways. Slower moves that cause stuns which could render 3 point useless, for example, and force a person to rely on advanced holds. And even slower moves that cause stuns which render all of them useless.

If they are going to keep the system in-place, they need to at least make concessions and give the attacker a legit option to break that defense.

And grapplers? Grapplers need to be able to absolutely rape a person trying to hold. They don't get to strike very often, and when they do, it needs to STICK.
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4 point system for me would be better but i have the feeling that it won't be enough though.

I agree on what Rikuto said, pretty much accurate.
Hold is a defensive tool and they should start to consider it like this and not some hybrid mechanic.If they don't remove hold from stun a big nerf is needed and ways to work around them.

-no damage from normal holds in stun.Avoiding a combo is a reward ,nothing more nothing less(if they keep 3 point for those)It would almost work as no hold from stun ,will you take the risk to hold and maybe get thrown?

-if that's a little too rough ,damages only on just frame normal holds,especially if they don't reduce the active window and recovery and keep 3 point.

-+X% on the last strike of a full string within stun?Crazy i know but forcing mixup and rewarding knolwedge if held properly.

-automatic stun if you hit your opponent on the recovery window of his hold.

-charge moves causing unholdable stun.As rikuto said hard to land but guaranteed option.Unholdable stun if hit by a middle when crouched or countered.

-didn't understand why you could make as much damages as a grappler if you land a a high counter throw with a striker character?Crazy damages extension reserved to grapplers or higher % for them.

As i've already said TN must take a real decision gameplaywise and not only juggling between 3 points 4 points.Nerf the hold system redo it from scratch or whatever but it must change.
 
grap3fruitman

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
People who are simply arguing between 3 and 4 point hold don't actually understand the hold and its flaws and thus aren't addressing them properly. DrDogg and Rikuto have great insight right above me into them. Holds should not be your primary method of defense, they should be a last resort. Right now in the DOA5 Alpha? They get you out of 98% of situations in DOA5, which is an improvement from the 99.9% of the situations they get you out of in DOA4 and Dimensions.
 
matsu

matsu

Member
grap3fruitman said:
they should be a last resort. Right now in the DOA5 Alpha? They get you out of 98% of situations in DOA5, which is an improvement from the 99.9% of the situations they get you out of in DOA4 and Dimensions.
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1-wise
2-XD nah i should be sad really ...
 
PhoenixVFIRE

PhoenixVFIRE

Well-Known Member
I prefer the 4point, but I'm willing to adjust :) and I agree that we should be able to create unholdable setups. Also I think people should try to rely a bit more on slow escaping, positioning, and sidestepping than holding as it seems holding is going to become even more riskier and your reward is going down >_>.
 
DrDogg

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
There definitely needs to be a way around the hold system (as I've been saying for months), but it needs to be something that isn't crazy hard to connect with at a high level. If you can't get an unholdable stun with something under i20, it won't really matter... unless the attack is unholdable and safe on block.

I don't think Power Blows will be seen much in high level play, so anything that's similar to them (charge moves, etc.) would not be a feasible alternative.
 
Rikuto

Rikuto

P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Deep stun, charge powerblow, wait for defender to hold at last moment, sidestep cancel, throw.

As he's tired of getting thrown over and over again, you start using the real thing.

Some people will do this, yea. It's a fairly legit tactic on paper. How unsafe the sidestep cancel ends up being in the final build should determine how viable it is though.
 
Crimson

Crimson

New Member
4 Point all the way. It gives the game more challenge and it makes more sense IMO.
If they make the counter system in DOA5 ..3 Point, then they are taking a HUGE step backwards with the counter system. I'm not counting DOA:D since it was a good idea to make it easier there, since the game is made to introduce people to DOA.
 
virtuaPAI

virtuaPAI

I am the reason why you are here!!!
Staff member
Administrator
If Team Ninja is adamant on keeping holds in stun, than critical holds should do no damage at all and put the defensive player at a small disadvantage(-1 to -3). When players realize you are not rewarded for holding in stun, and still can be punished hard for messing up, this will get people to use better defensive techniques, and face the consequence of having poor defense.
 
PhoenixVFIRE

PhoenixVFIRE

Well-Known Member
DrDogg said:
If you're content placing top 16 at a tournament. I'd much rather place top 3. ^_^
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No one ever said High-end/pro gameplay. I was mainly referring to online, also if the person charging the attack knows the other person will just try to interrupt the PB with a faster attack then bam SS. I don't really think someone would try to PB if they knew the person would just wait to hold them. Mainly just use it as a SS or sike a person out.
 
virtuaPAI

virtuaPAI

I am the reason why you are here!!!
Staff member
Administrator
PhoenixVFIRE said:
No one ever said High-end/pro gameplay. I was mainly referring to online, also if the person charging the attack knows the other person will just try to interrupt the PB with a faster attack then bam SS. I don't really think someone would try to PB if they knew the person would just wait to hold them. Mainly just use it as a SS or sike a person out.
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-But that is all you have to do. Is wait and hold. If they ss and you did no attack, you throw. As it is right now PB's are virtually useless. Also, at the end of the day, we are talking about High level play, not online.
 
Awesmic

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
May as well call the topic "3-point hold vs. 4-point hold vs. 6-point hold / Out of Stun vs. Not out of Stun".
 
Jefffcore

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Accept they aren't going to take it out of stun, and they likely wont make it 6, so talking about it is a waste. Plus it's been talked to death. Death carries around the notes in his pockets while he reaps people.
 
Awesmic

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Jefffcore said:
Accept they aren't going to take it out of stun, and they likely wont make it 6, so talking about it is a waste. Plus it's been talked to death. Death carries around the notes in his pockets while he reaps people.
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I see.

Well... guess we better pray for more limbo stuns.
 
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