Tomonobu Itagaki On Dead or Alive 5: “My Daughter Was Totally Ruined”

[crapoZK]

Well...not really. I can't speak for Momiji too much (people say she's a variation of Hayabusa), but Rachel is a spinoff of Nicole, with a moveset more geared towards juggles than the former was.

Either way, I woulda rather had new stuff than all this Ninja Gaiden content (characters, costumes, stages, etc)

Except I woulda loved Doku, I admit.

I would have loved Doku too.

Nicole was a spin-off of Bayman and Leon, with marginally longer strings, and that epic 41236T and Sacks 2H+K. And Rachel was a "Nicole-with-a-twist" lol.
If we had Nicole instead of Rachel, then she would be Xbox exclusive, and we don't want that, no no. That stopped with MK9. From a marketing standpoint, I would include my own character, rather than pay someone else to use theirs.

Rachel is still a very good character, more or less. The additional characters for 5U were really good.

Now onto Momiji. Momiji is a character who has 4 moves that were taken from Hayabusa, (I believe) because she is from the village, you know, how all the Mishimas have EWGF. These are her 236P, 6P, 8P, and 236P+KPP:Izuna. Her playstyle is unique, but still similar to her teacher, Hayabusa's for a completely obvious reason. She is very different to her NG counterpart, though her throws are directly taken from NG2 and 3, for memorabilia. Her arsenal is a lot broader than her NG form, and also, this jumping thing (Don't know what the stance is called) are to my knowledge, New additions to her moveset. Momiji also forces people learn her attributes. If you don't learn that, you'll be caught in a dangerous trap.

I still think that there could have been better additions to 5U, but still, these characters are still VERY, VERY good.

 

[Argentus]

I would have loved Doku too.

Nicole was a spin-off of Bayman and Leon, with marginally longer strings, and that epic 41236T and Sacks 2H+K. And Rachel was a "Nicole-with-a-twist" lol.
If we had Nicole instead of Rachel, then she would be Xbox exclusive, and we don't want that, no no. That stopped with MK9. From a marketing standpoint, I would include my own character, rather than pay someone else to use theirs.

Rachel is still a very good character, more or less. The additional characters for 5U were really good.

Now onto Momiji. Momiji is a character who has 4 moves that were taken from Hayabusa, (I believe) because she is from the village, you know, how all the Mishimas have EWGF. These are her 236P, 6P, 8P, and 236P+KPP:Izuna. Her playstyle is unique, but still similar to her teacher, Hayabusa's for a completely obvious reason. She is very different to her NG counterpart, though her throws are directly taken from NG2 and 3, for memorabilia. Her arsenal is a lot broader than her NG form, and also, this jumping thing (Don't know what the stance is called) are to my knowledge, New additions to her moveset. Momiji also forces people learn her attributes. If you don't learn that, you'll be caught in a dangerous trap.

I still think that there could have been better additions to 5U, but still, these characters are still VERY, VERY good.

I'd still wish they'd bring back Nicole modified to no longer be a spartan, but an actual Dead or Alive character, so the rights wouldn't be an issue. Shouldn't be hard.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

I actually agree with him on this, because it was just plain lazy of them to port over ng in an attempt to cash in on brand recognition, rather than make a new character.

I'm curious what his opinoins on Rig, Mila, and Marie Rose are though.

Oh BS, they were extremely requested characters to be in DOA since they first became famous in NG:B and NGS2.
And last time I checked, they put alot of care into both characters and made them distinct from those they come from(Ryu and Nicole respectively) and even in Rachel's case, Nicole wasn't even all that new either since it was virtually a femake Bayman/Leon clone.

 

[Brute]

Momiji and Rachel are really boring in DOA but sadly, that's not what Itagaki's gripe was (which is hardly worth considering, if that).

 

[Matt Ponton]

He just wanted to keep Ninja Gaiden separate from DOA.

 

[RoboJoe]

He failed that the moment he added Ayane into NG. She could have easily been replaced by an original character and it would have made more sense too, but Itagaki decided to shoehorn DOA into NG instead.

 

[Brute]

He replaced Ryu's awesome default costume with his NG Bondage get-up and then made him stupidly good to closer match his canon-tier in NG. Probably also why he included all the NG posters in the backdrop of DOA stages, and decided that the Doppleganger Ashtar outfit should become a DOA mainstay alt. for the character, despite making no sense at all.

In general, Itagaki's rhetoric is to say something that sounds nice in public, but makes completely no sense when one actually considers the decisions he has made. It's like he's actively arguing with his own practices, but isn't aware of it. Or perhaps he is and just enjoys taking all of these drones for a loopy ride? Who can say. I tend to think not, though. He seems to genuinely love his fans.

 

[GarryJaune]

woo..now I see...what a jealous old man

 

[werewolfgold]

I do think that DOA5 could use a little less XBV and DLC in its coffee. But, other than that...meh. Maybe add in a few more organic stages next time, make the arcade mode more interesting and keep on moving forward with the fighting system as planned.

Some of those Itagaki fans be crazy, dawg.

 

[Argentus]

on the topic of Ryu costumes, I actually woulda liked the blue skinned/glowing veins Fiend Ryu from the first Ninja Gaiden.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

He replaced Ryu's awesome default costume with his NG Bondage get-up and then made him stupidly good to closer match his canon-tier in NG. Probably also why he included all the NG posters in the backdrop of DOA stages, and decided that the Doppleganger Ashtar outfit should become a DOA mainstay alt. for the character, despite making no sense at all.

In general, Itagaki's rhetoric is to say something that sounds nice in public, but makes completely no sense when one actually considers the decisions he has made. It's like he's actively arguing with his own practices, but isn't aware of it. Or perhaps he is and just enjoys taking all of these drones for a loopy ride? Who can say. I tend to think not, though. He seems to genuinely love his fans.

Hey...I like that bondage gear very much, I never really got his NES look because it honestly made him look like any other normal ninja.
What really bugged me isn't exactly the fact that Itagaki did most of these changes AND included Ayane into NG canon, yet bitched about Momiji and Rachel being in DOA canon...but the fact he has no fucking clue about Ninja Gaiden canon as a whole.

Let's seriously look at Joe(or Ken, because fuck it at this point) Hayabusa. He was supposed to have died in the NES Ninja Gaiden 2 but due to the fact Itagaki had no fucking clue on how the canon of the NES timeline and the Xbox Timeline worked, we have Joe/Ken Hayabusa still alive and kicking fighting Genshin and later on, being blind for some reason, yet assisting Ryu in the final push in NG3. Or how about Sonia=Irene? It was actually ITAGAKI that tossed in the fact that Sonia can be easily intepreted as Irene despite in the NES canon, they've never met before until then. There's also plenty of shenanigans with the small details, but last time I checked, it's TN that's trying it's damnest to actually construct a timeline and fix those glaring issues. So now Rachel is STILL out of place being in a place that doesn't exist at all unless we are counting the fact that Vigoor came to be because of something in 1000 year gap for the DOA-NG timeline and Ryu has been going around kicking all sorts of demon overlord ass, but no one from the other highly prestigious ninja clans ever bothered to help him out...and the Hayabusa Village has been attacked more times than Japan being attacked by Godzilla...

Jeez, that was alot to get off my chest there.

 

[Kronin]

@Xhominid The Demon Within I don't fin any problems in all this, since NG for Xbox Itagaki liked to leave the doubt (or maybe he made opposite statements, I can't remember) if the new series had be considered a remake or working in the same timeline of the NES trilogy. This because everything happened in the first NG effectively didn't contrast with what said previously just as Joe never appearing but purposefully mentioned to survive to the massacre of the clan, something very likely made on purpose.

However since the beginning NG was accustomed to the DoA canon (with Ayane) and appeared much more likely that someone as Itagaki would prefer to create a personal version of it working in the universe created with DoA, rather than to be limited from working on something not created from him. Hinting that Sonia could be Irene, Itagaki were already indicating how he was creating a remake of the old series, inspirated to the previous one but setted in a personal universe with the same characters from DoA. By the way not only characters as Joe, Sonia or Robert are retconned versions of their old counterparts, but even objects, background and gameplay elements along all the three games want be a big tribute to the old series. I'm not more able to find a link where a fan had listed pretty well a plethora of elements, but this little list in Hardcore101 should give an idea: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ninjagaiden/ninjagaiden7.htm.

 

[quash]

I see a lot of posts in this thread that are basically saying that Itagaki doesn't appreciate fighting games, doesn't understand how to make them, etc.

I understand where this is coming from, though it is coming from a very narrow view of what a director does. Itagaki was likely not that involved in the process of fine tuning the game back when he was working on DOA, rather providing direction and making sure the game fit whatever vision he had for it.

You see this with almost every long-running fighting game series: Yu Suzuki hasn't been involved in VF since VF4, Ishiwatari's last Guilty Gear (before Xrd) was #Reload, etc. Let's not even get in to how many different hands have touched Street Fighter at this point.

Yet, in the case of those games, as it is with DOA, the series ultimately did better for itself once the lead director (the visionary) left. Simply put, the visionary's job is done once a series has established itself. From there, it takes people with the kind of mental fortitude necessary to focus on the larger impact of minute changes and, more importantly, the fresh perspective of someone who isn't married to the series (someone who isn't afraid to stray a little from the vision, in other words).

I've spoken with Itagaki on Facebook, and I assure you he is not as ignorant as many people here seem to think. He definitely appreciates the process of balancing a fighting game and making it as interesting as possible, but please understand that was never his primary position when he was working on the series.

To put it in the simplest of terms possible, Itagaki's job was to think "Wouldn't it be cool if...", not "Wouldn't it be more interesting if...". The same goes for Suzuki, Ishiwatari, and all the other lead directors who have since been minimized in/ousted of their role. Once the vision is fulfilled, the next task is to refine. Visionaries don't have time for that, and frankly, it is a position that is beneath them.

Case in point: why is it we all know who Yu Suzuki is, but only a few of us know of Makoto Osaki?

 

[Brute]

That's exactly it. His primary focus isn't on making the game play on a level I (and other competitive players) find enjoyable or even acceptable. His focus is making the game his own version of "cool." Sadly, his version of cool is not even something I want, even if that approach were the desired one. I didn't feel cool winning in DOA4 because it was a largely meaningless feat accomplished through an unimpressive system. I didn't feel cool going through its story mode just to watch Kasumi dreaming, naked, about being a mermaid (don't get me started on Leifang's or Hitomi's endings). I guess all that was the result of him letting DOAX keep all of the excessive sexuality out of the main fighting game series. Now, I'm not saying that DOA5's story or character development are captivating me, but at least you feel cool pulling off set-ups, making reads and achieving victory over difficult opponents in DOA5 because the system, more or less, supports that objective now.
Then he implies that DOA5's focus on becoming more competitive somehow alienated casual fans when anyone with an organ in their skull knows that is complete nonsense. Despite the casual fanbase being larger now than it ever has been in the past, the complaints that come from the casual fans have nothing to do with the gameplay at all. So if that is truly the mindset he uses to look at the games, it's no wonder the competitive community isn't begging for him to come back.

This is nothing more than an exercise routine in the futility of combating fatuousness. I suppose this is the part where I realize I'm an idiot, too, through association.
I'm out. Have fun in here, other mods.

 

[quash]

To be fair, he definitely overstayed his welcome with DOA4. There were other issues that contributed to that game's premature release from what I understand, but truthfully there was not much he could have done for the series at that point anyways.

He is partially right about DOA5 alienating a certain breed of casual player, though I would agree that overall it has been the most successful DOA to date. The game's image over here in Japan at least is that of a competitor to Tekken, a role previously filled by VF, which has no doubt attracted some people (VF players, among others) while it has deterred others (people who are intimidated by arcade fighters, and there are more of them than you may think).

I also can't disagree with his disdain for the game's excessive DLC, not to mention the backtrack on DLC characters being free.

Then, of course, there is the element of a series he created doing better after his absence. It can't be an easy pill to swallow, but he can always make another 3D fighter to compete with it. That is how SNK's fighters came about, after all...

 

[Kronin]

I think that what you say @quash make sense and it's an interesting point of view, but the matter is that in my opinion a such distinction between the role of the creator and the one of the team (or inheritor) behind him shouldn't be present and the two things can cohexist. You have your vision of a game in your mind, it's good, then this has anyway to be adapted to the reality for fitting even other interests (from an appealing of a large fanbase through a balance of casual and competitive elements, to more commercial ones for allowing the life of the product and so on...), so getting compromises and new solutions. I want say, this is always the creative process for all the things not made from a single person, a filmaker can even shot 10 hours of movie but then he has to edit it in post production, cutting and attaching for creating something able to work for the majority of the audience and at the same time remaining the most faithful possible to his vision.

It's not easy, but it's just this the challenge: if owning all the means everyone can realize what he wishes; but from this to be able to make like your same product to much more people than only you there is a big difference, and it's just this what is called "success" (under this matter).

So I believe that no one is discussing Itagaki's vision of the things about what concern himself, his preferences remain his ones exactly like for everyone: the point is that a series for estabilishing itself (and continuing to get popularity) has even to meet different interests and sharing different povs. If Itagaki refuse to do it he can't be surprised to get complaints toward him for DoA4, these come always but even more if you don't care for getting feedback from the audience of your series or figthing games in general (that surely love to get a competetive game, exactly as the people eager of fanservice, costumes or interactivity).

EDIT: Quash, how famous DoA in Japan compared to other fighting series as Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat and Tekken? Is it seen as a proper fighting game?

 

[quash]

They do coexist, but not peacefully. It is a constant struggle between keeping the game as the lead director wants it to be and making the necessary changes to improve the game on a mechanical level. When the former gets what he wants with no resistance, we end up with DOA4. When the latter overwhelms the former, we get aesthetically dull games that end up taking little risks on the mechanical side as well, as refined as they may be (see: Dengeki Bunko FC).

PS: Quash, how famous DoA in Japan compared to other fighting series as SC, Mortal Kombat and Tekken? Is it seen as a proper fighting game?

DOA5UA has been pretty well received over here. I don't keep up with Arcadia rankings or anything, but I'd imagine it's been within the top 10 since its release.

It's definitely not as big as Tekken, but it has a fairly large playerbase with a decent amount of dedicated players.

 

[Female Tengu]

No. Mr. Itagaki Your daughter was a slutty brat to begin with. She just developed better techniques and came out in the open about it since you left.

With all the shit this dude is talking about DOA5 and how its "ruined" Devils Third had better not fucking suck.

I sooo agree with you here.

His game failed already. Wanted to give NG series a break to make a game which is heavily inspired by "his" core series, looks outdated, last-gen, in development for years now, only words - no real in-depth gameplay, from a multi-plat to a WiiU exclusive and the list goes on and on. At release the game will fail.

I have respect for him as the creator of DOA and the (new gen) Ninja Gaiden games, but Itagaki is Mr. Big Mouth in person. All he can do is talk like he is teh boss and knows best what is good for "his" games. He ignored the DOA community for the most part, fixed stuff which didn't need to be "fixed" at all and so on. And I'm pretty sure he still thinks that DOA4 is the best DOA he ever made, lol. He is a PR clown and always will be. Makes himself look like an idiot as soon as he starts to talk about his games and ideas or even OTHER franchises.

While the new Team Ninja leader Hayashi may be on a similar level than him (in terms of talking much, but at least in a less BS way) and still does weird stuff from time to time no one understands, the new formed Team Ninja under his leadership brought DOA literally back to the competitive scene. And Team Ninjas efforts to support the game on tournaments are by far much bigger now. Also the constant updates are a big plus.

 

[x Sypher x]

If Itagaki were to return to TN, I can't imagine anything else than just pure utter chaos going down. If that's how he truly feels about DOA in it's current state then he has no place there. I respect him because he gave birth to a once great series, which has now began to blossom again, but I cannot ignore the fact that he's being bitter about how the series and TN is doing without him. I get it, it's not easy for a father to see his little girl growing up and doing just fine without him. But he should feel proud of her success. Perhaps yes she has been rather spoiled, with all the DLC and what not being dropped on a regular basis. Some of which kinda makes me feel like they are oversexualizing the game a bit too much, such as the bikini packs, cops, nurses, etc., and others seem to lack any sense of creativity or originality. But hey if they're still making money I can't knock them too much for it. They've come a long way since Itagaki left, and I have high hopes for them in the future because they have proven and shown they have potential. And the community is even bigger than ever. I was stoked when DOA5 was announced and I enjoyed seeing it develop before release. It pretty much set the bar for the future of the series and while also showing us how TN was evolving as a team. I liked and appreciated what they were doing, the whole concept of fighting entertainment was appealing to me. Hell they even added a real story mode. That's something you don't see every day. But who really plays fighting games for the story right? Haha. And while I feel in some areas they may have gone a little over the top, and in other areas they are still lacking IMO, overall it was a fresh start that was badly needed and I'm glad to see they delivered. I'm not gonna get into a discussion about all the technical stuff and mechanics cuz I'm not very knowledgeable, I'll leave that to the pros. Some believe the game is shit, others say it's great, and in the middle people say it needs improvement but still playable. Me, I'm an optimist, so I'm just greatful to even have what we got and I'm happy to see the game doing well among the majority of the community at least and even the FGC as a whole. I'll always support the game no matter what.

Back to Itagaki...IF he were to actually do something for DOA as he claims, the only thing I'd like to see him do is bring his creative mind and restore the old charm that was lost in DOA. I can understand and sympathize with those who feel that past iterations had a certain "charm" that 5 just doesn't have. I can't really explain it but it's there. Here are some things that I miss.

1. Itagaki had a knack for bringing his culture into the game, and it was very well represented in the stages, they were beautiful. We need more of that nowadays. It's nice to see old stages being redone and returning in DOA5, but we need something new.

2. The costumes. Back then they had a way of making the character stand out and expressing themselves. They had a certain style that was unique to them. Once again, it's nice to see some old ones return, and some of the new ones aren't bad. But I'd like to something fresh.

3. Environmental interactivity. I guess you can kind of tie this one with the first. But we all know one of the things DOA has always been known for is how you can interact with the environment in different ways. I miss the old multi-tiered stages where they actually had some depth to them, like it's something you can explore. Everything is all flat now. Sure you can knock something off a cliff or through a wall or the floor, into a giant fucking statue or boulder, tank, etc., but it's still lacking. Fancy cinematics don't really make up for it. I wanna be able to walk down or up a hill or slope or stairs, or hell even a rooftop. Remember when you had to avoid a speeding car or a cheetah? Sure it may have seemed stupid but it sure was amusing to see other people get hit lol. I also like to see how the characters themselves interact with the environment, i.e. seeing Zack surf on your body down a flight of stairs or Hayabusa Izuna dropping you through a wooden bridge. Knocking people over partitions. Being able to easily slip in stages with water cuz it made you more cautious or added to your fighting strategy. Shit like that.

Stuff like this I can see Itagaki bringing back the so called "charm" to the series and I wouldn't mind if he did, in fact I'd welcome it. I know this is a very casual perspective but I hope some of you can agree on at least one point. Like I said, leave the technical stuff to the pros. With that being said, I'm just curious to see what will be his next move.

 

[Kronin]

I know this is a very casual perspective but I hope some of you can agree on at least one point. Like I said, leave the technical stuff to the pros. With that being said, I'm just curious to see what will be his next move.

@x Sypher x personally seems that in this moment you me are sharing the same mind XD I completely agree with everything your wrote, are exactly my things about the casual side of DoA5. I even feel that 5 series has something lacking from the old games (even if I don't exclude that maybe could be just the difference of atmoshpere of the game to play an important factor in giving such vibe), and what is missing to it in my opinion are just many little details that maybe passed almost invisible but that actually are just an integral part of the soul of a game.

Even so I consider DoA5 a very appealing game even for not competitive players, but under his casual side from some aspects seem to me influenced from a wish to change that pushed it far from some things that make of DoA the series that everyone knew (and no, I'm not talking of breasts XD). I believe that it's the same problem of some aspects NG3, the wish to change something for creating an evolution (how has to happen with every sequels of a series) but that actually to the fans appear more a change in aspects where it wasn't necessary.