DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[VirtuaKazama]

My opinion on Leifang's matchups:

Akira: 6-4 (Akira is a very linear character. Easy to sidestep, easy to use Unshu or any punch parry since he loves to mid/high punch)

Alpha-152: 5-5? or 4-6 in favor of Alpha? Need to look that up again.

Ayane: 4-6 (Ayane has great spacing and plays well on range game. Can be difficult for Leifang if Ayane allows to rush down on her.)

Bass: 6-4 (Leifang has a speed advantage over Bass. Just needs to watch out for Bass' grabs because they do hella damage)

Bayman: 6-4 (Both of these characters are even in defense options, but once again Leifang wins at speed. His tank roll can be beaten by either K2K, 4KK, or her low OH.)

Brad Wong: 6-4 (I know Brad has decent mixups and range, but Leifang wins at speed. Her low crushes, mid kick holds, and low OHs can beat Brad Wong)

Christie: 5-5 (Christie is a speed queen, but Leifang has good defense options. Her Jaheiko. Even matchup.)

Ein: 6-4 (Ein sucks at close range. Leifang has great defense. You do the math.)

Eliot: 6-4 (Use Leifang's defense options such as unshu and Mid-Kick holds.)

Gen-Fu: 5-5 (It's an even matchup, but because Gen Fu relies on his punches, Leifang's Unshu can be useful. Gen-Fu has a mid-kick launcher that can be sidestepped.)

Hayabusa: 5-5 (Long range vs. Short Range. Mid Kick Holds vs. Izuna)

Hayate: 5-5 (We all know Leifang sucks at long range. We also know that Hayate sucks at close range. Don't let Hayate use any of his spacing tools.)

Helena: 5-5 (Arguably one of my favorite matchups. Helena has great mix-ups while Leifang has great defensive tools.)

Hitomi: 6-4 (Hitomi will have a problem with Leifang's unshu and parries. Like Ein, Hitomi has better long range tools. EDIT: People are saying that this matchup is now 5-5, but I'll look into that again.)

Jann Lee: 4-6 or 5-5 (He has excellent spacing, but if you use Leifang in a reckless manner, then you are gonna have a hard time.)

Jacky: 5-5? (Jacky's spacing game is good, but he will fall prey to Leifang's defense on mid kicks.)

Kasumi: 5-5 (Kasumi's air tactics are really good. Not a good idea to abuse Lei's parries.)

Kokoro: 5-5 (Originally in Vanilla, it was 6-4 because of Kokoro's long range and stun games. But I think it's different this time since Leifang's tools have gotten a bit better.)

Lisa: 5-5 (Even match-up, even though Lisa is good on her long-range game. Leifang is also good on her close-range game. Just watch out for Lisa's throws.)

Leon: 6-4 (Leifang beats Leon in speed and defense. But watch out for Leon's throws, because they are powerful as shit.)

Marie Rose: TBD. Will give out the match-up once she's on consoles.

Mila: 5-5 (Mila's Mid Kick spacing gives Leifang the option to either use 6P+K sabaki, 44P sabaki, or any of her mid kick holds. Keep in mind that Mila is a spacer, so watch out for that.)

Momiji: 6-4 or 5-5 (I believe it's leaning towards the matchup favor of Leifang. Low hold whiff whenever Momiji does Tenku K.)

Pai: 5-5 (Another one of my favorite matchups. Both characters are good on defense. Basically it's all about who outguesses who.)

Rachel: 6-4 (Leifang has tracking moves against Rachel's special sidestep. Also, her defense can beat Rachel.)

Rig: 6-4 (Rig is normally on the offense. Leifang's crushes, along with her mid parries and mix ups can beat out Rig's. Just don't use any OHs or unshus.

Sarah: 4-6 (Sarah can lay the smackdown on Leifang's candy ass! Spacing, crushes, mix-ups, etc. can kick Leifang's ass!)

Tina: 5-5 or 6-4 (Another one of my fun matchups. Watch out for Tina's throws because they do a lot of damage.)

Zack: 7-3 (Zack can easily get stomped by Leifang. His ducking stance can be low OH, Mid Kicks can be held, moves can be crushed, sucks at long range.)

 

[Tenryuga]

Ein: 6-4 (Ein sucks at close range. Leifang has great defense. You do the math.)

Hayate: 5-5 (We all know Leifang sucks at long range. We also know that Hayate sucks at close range. Don't let Hayate use any of his spacing tools.)

Hitomi: 6-4 (Hitomi will have a problem with Leifang's unshu and parries. Like Ein, Hitomi has better long range tools.)

Jann Lee: 4-6 or 5-5 (He has excellent spacing.)

I have a question about these. What exactly makes Jann Lee a disadvantage or even MU for her when he has the same issues with Leifang you say the others have in close range?

What problems do Leifangs unshu and parries present for Hitomi that they do not present for the rest of the cast? I don't see anything to warrant this being a 6-4 especially due to your numbers for the Hayate and Jann Lee MUs.

I agree with the Hayate number but Hayate doesn't suck at close range lol. He's better at mid range and a solid close range fighter; just mad unsafe.

The Ein MU is even to me because his spacing and footsies will give Leifang nightmares since both her mobility and her range is poor. In close range you have to respect the +1 my 2P gives me and I have to respect your defensive options. If I make a read on you performing any type of defensive action 33T is netting me 99 points of damage post 2P. Literally that move is key to controlling this match in close range because if I sit in your face abusing 2P your options are to use your mid punch, SS or low hold being the riskiest option. My mid punch handles two of those options and 33T will take care of parry and SS attempts post 2P. Granted in CQC the risk/reward is in Leifangs favor but that's balanced out by the fact that If I'm on point there is very little time spent in CQC and more time spent where you try to get in on me.

 

[VirtuaKazama]

I noticed how unsafe Ein is at close range. Besides, I think Leifang has a better advantage because she can actually get up close to Ein no problem. But I see what you mean that it should be 5-5.

Jann Lee vs. Leifang is somewhat of a toss up for me. The only thing is that Jann-Lee has a better spacing advantage than Leifang. But someone said that this matchup rules in Leifang's favor (to whoever said that, can anyone explain why?)

Hitomi can be a even matchup, but I believe she loses to Leifang because I know Hitomi players rely on mostly her mid/high punches. I can easily go for a parry, unshu, or sabaki.

For Hayate: I see what you mean. He's great at mid range, but he is mad unsafe.

 

[P1naatt1ke1tt0]

Hitomi can be a even matchup, but I believe she loses to Leifang because I know Hitomi players rely on mostly her mid/high punches. I can easily go for a parry, unshu, or sabaki.

You can't really decide a matchup based on what players TEND to do. It should be based on the characters' tools when used optimally in a given matchup. And as a particular example, I start my mixups more often with mid kicks than anything else. Hitomi/Lei is 5/5 IMO.

 

[Crext]

Let see, I will get around to edit this in later today. Feel free to continue discussion though.

 

[Malfury]

Reading the front page of this tier list and then reading the thread.. this is kind of confusing. I understand this is a match up rating tier list, but is that all that's being considered here? Which characters have the best tools against each character?

EDIT: Nevermind, I looked at the chart again, I guess it's literally tiered up off that. Looking at the chart, seems like most chars fall short from B tier and down simply because of bad meta-game.

 

[Crext]

Reading the front page of this tier list and then reading the thread.. this is kind of confusing. I understand this is a match up rating tier list, but is that all that's being considered here? Which characters have the best tools against each character?

Yes, Mr. President Puten sir.
The tier list is based off the score to the far right in the google spreadsheet.

 

[Malfury]

Yes, President Puten sir. If you look in the google spreadsheet the tier list is based off the score to the far right.

Yeah I double backed and saw it again, my bad. But if the tiers are so wide, then the meta-game is pretty bad in my opinion

 

[AkaShocka]

Can any Rachel players post some Rachel MUs because there is no way in hell she's E tier.

 

[Malfury]

Can any Rachel players post some Rachel MUs because there is no way in hell she's E tier.

I agree. But I'm not really qualified to put any real input on this list. I'd gander she would be low A to mid B tier at least.

 

[AkaShocka]

I agree. But I'm not really qualified to put any real input on this list. I'd gander she would be low A to mid B tier at least.

Yea. I think she is upper B tier. She's probably not A or higher but she is not in damn E tier.

 

[Crext]

Updated.

Good job, VirtuaKazama and Tenryuga!

 

[Pictured Mind]

Can any Rachel players post some Rachel MUs because there is no way in hell she's E tier.

Like I said, I would if I had more knowledge of every character. I could still try. She has some of the best moves in the game. I think she's C tier at least. Might even be B.

But Shocky, you're a bit of a Rachel player too so Y U NO

 

[AkaShocka]

But Shocky, you're a bit of a Rachel player too so Y U NO

I can try but I don't think I know all about her. I just know her basics and some combos. I can think of some then though.

 

[Yaguar]

Guess I'll have a go at some Momiji since she hasn't really been brought up. From what experience I have she goes 1 of 2 ways. The match up for her is just brutal or she's brutally taken out.

What she has going for her:
Safety and tonnes of it.
Tracking and tonnes of it.
Fairly stable mid crush ()
Lots of strong high crushes.
(?) Guaranteed setups ( MAY be fastest stagger escapable, cannot remember right now. Fast safe 100%.)
Near Guaranteed (Basically just frame counter escapable e.g. CH and CH ).
Pseudo FT setups and some other questionable stuff (CH gives a pseudo but if they counter as they fall gives sitdown, no stagger options.).
Amazing stun launch. This comes as a pro and a con in her MU's.
Solid mid range options.
i12 Feint stun (BT , can be used from (-3) which makes it i15...)
10/12/12 jabs. 12 frame low is sexy interrupt material.
escape vs. floored.
flip i12 just out of there. (Big negative, -14 but moves out of grab range if used at slight range)
is block safe. follow up makes it sidestep safe. (Downsides: Small execution window for follow up)

Where she struggles:
Some matches, winning neutral the amount she has to is hard. Christie would be a perfect example of this. Momiji's and are pretty staple for her CQC. You have a good set of crushes for dealing with her highs but Christie's (i11) and will either beat out of just stuff Momiji's moves. The hurt box for these is stupid in some cases. Some characters it works in her favour, others it makes her mid punch openers crushable.

Best BT option on block leaves her at -3. Her feint is a i12 high. It's nice but if someone wants to quickly or you, you won't win. She has to be in BT to access feint so if you're looking for feint -> free launch, you probably won't win it at neutral. That said, she has one and a lot of the cast does not.

can be stopped on reaction and it is hella unsafe. For one of her best tools she really can only use this as a valuable read or reaction crush.

For CQC she has no real quick and safe mid kick option outside of (H/M i12/i16 ends -6) which won't help vs. grapplers.

Uzukaze and Tenku are not safe and a death trap out of stun. Her Tenku finishers are also pretty reactable leaving them as fairly pointless outside of launch.

Stun Launch:
I'll highlight this on its own because it is a double edged sword.
She nets a lot of damage from a stun launch. She has the option to only have to go slightly into the stun game to capitalise huge damage which are all guesses in her favour.
Downside? You have to win neutral. Though she can sit and play the stun game you aren't really going to find Mila level damage for taking the extra risk.

Neutral game for her is pretty good at mid or CQC, mid range being her preference in a few matches (Helena/Christie without a doubt).

Her and suffer from terrible hurt boxes or just what appear to be the most awkward in the world at some points. This can make or break neutral if you're trying to scrap it out. leaves her -3 and is i13 strike 1. When her CQC match up is bad, -3 leaves her without much to do. Against some of the slower cast members she can use it a bit like a bad frame trap. She's safe... but it isn't great news if you want to carry on offence. She suffers a lot from "take a turn and wait" that is in DOA. She does have a good free step so you can play footsies a bit for the mid range. This'll net you damage.

is a great interrupt but only really lets you pressure a block rather than turning into damage since on CH you get +4.

is her best interrupt but won't work at deadlock range a lot of the time and it's a 50/50 as you'll need the stun from a follow up ( or ) to actually turn it into damage.

Final Points:
Her grabs do pretty solid damage so you can bait a lot counters. Looking at her grab damage here rather than her ability to bait as a tool (she does have a lot of that though because people just don't see 62(NH) damage as an issue till they notice their entire life was chipped away by 8:).

So onto what I feel are decent matches for her and a tiny bit of why. Probably missed a few things above and I'd like people to give feedback where they can. I'll probably miss a couple of matches I'm not 100% on because I just haven't seen people offline for those characters or don't fully understand their toolset enough to match it against Momiji's (promising start).

Match Ups:
(Vs. Name - Momiji score - Opponent Score )

Vs. Helena - 4.5 - 5.5
Pro's:
Can hold mid range.
i12
Wins mid range.

Cons:
Best crushes aren't greatly effective.
Crushes lot of CQC options for Momiji.
Stance options are numerous. isn't a 1 size fits all solution.
Can't maintain neutral pressure as well and doesn't have the same level of post tech options.
Duck heavy character (Stance), slower high options that give her setups are iffy.

Vs. Christie - 4 - 6
Pro's:
can deal with some of JAK.
Faster low i12 vs. i14.
Stronger mid range with tracking options for JAK.
deals with some mids.
Stronger grabs.
Safer.

Cons:
Not enough footwork to hold the range she needs to keep the match in her favour.
"Frame Traps" are useless vs. Christie's jab speed.
won't deal with all JAK options.
and hurt boxes are ruined by Christie's .
CQC is Christie's domain.
Christie has way more +frames and traps ( 0 on block).
Duck heavy character (Stance), slower high options that give her setups are iffy.

Vs. Rig - 6 - 4
Pro's:
Crushes.
answers to bending stance thanks to i12.
is another option and nets solid damage.
Strong high hit based setups are effective.

Cons:
Guaranteed setups.
Guard Breaks.

Notes: You're about equal at neutral but Momiji's crush game is too strong here. His offence is basically hers as well. really fits everything against Rig to change momentum and can catch out his entire high library netting instant damage from launch.

Vs. Hitomi - 5.5 - 4.5
Pro's:
Speed and mix up inside of stun.
escapes all special wake ups.
Feint stun.
Crush options are better.
Safer.
Crouched sweeping lows.

Cons:
Punch Parry.
+Frame Grabs, stronger grab options ().
Stronger single hit punishment.
-1 block options compared to -3.

Vs. Tina - 5 - 5
Pro's:
Faster.
Safer.
ruins mids, as does just outside of CQC deadlock.
Overall crush game superior.

Cons:
Offensive Holds.
Grab strength is far superior.
+Frame options.
Tina's crushes low options with ramifications.

vs. Sarah - 4.5 - 5.5
Pro's:
Mid range game.
Crush game removes some of her pressure and nets some solid damage.
Can hold mid range pretty well.

Cons:
Doesn't give a flying fuck.
Parry stance.
Frame traps.
Superior feint stun.
Flamingo low kick stun on neutral.

Notes: This honestly isn't the worst match in the world. Sarah does have an unbelievable pressure game but you have a huge number of crush options for most of her go to frame traps. She ultimately just has more tools but you have stun launch if you can nip a hit. I'd want to say that in reality this is pretty even but all in all she does have a bigger tool set.

All I have time for right now. Hope these seem right to some others and helps a bit.
Due to lack of time I've not proof read everything so I hope this is right D:

 

[Crext]

Paper

Wow, best MU so far, with so much detail.

I'll grade it A, and throw in the + if you manage to cover everyone!

 

[Yaguar]

snip

Can probably cover another dozen or couple more, it's just finding time. Read over a couple and some bits in wrong headings so I'll move them after.
I'll list the ones I know I won't cover (lack of experience vs at a good enough level):
Hayabusa,
Akira,
Leon,
Bayman (but I can touch on it),
Alpha,
Pai,
Gen Fu (because from me playing I can't find anything that says this isn't 9-1 to him but that is more in practise than on paper),
Leifang (could be touch and go),
Marie Rose.

 

[Crext]

Aye, sounds good. I wouldn't complain if you give it a try even on those you feel you lack experience with. An estimate is better than nothing for later reference after all.

 

[Tenryuga]

Couple of things about Ein's MU's now that I looked at the chart. Ein doesn't have as many bad MU's as it claims he does. The way I see it Ein has 2 good matchups, 8 bad matchups and the rest are even. I'll name off ones I believe to be good and the bad ones.

In Ein's Favor (I can be swayed on both of these):

Bass - I can frame trap him to death in close range and I don't think Bass options in mid-long range are good. His mobility is terrible and his ranged options are nothing compared to mine. I dominate in footsies and I dominate in close range. When can Bass try to dominate? When he gets a hit lol. It's hard for him to do that when I'm coming at him with a 10 / 9i jab, 13i / 12i mids and 13i / 12i low up close. And this is after he has to fight his way to me from mid - long range. It's a whole lot of work on Bass part and not much on mine. 6-4 Ein.

Eliot - Eliot can't try to spear his way to me from mid range like he can do to other characters because his string attack speed is a bit slow so Ein can just 4K, 46P, or 236P / 6P+K at the right range to score counter blows. In close range I have to be wary of the i9 palm but palm is actually not bad to get hit by because it puts me at a good distance where I can start spacing. In CQC his options to stop my frame traps are parries, 9P and crushing. None of these are game breaking to Ein and isn't enough for me to say Eliot has an overwhelming edge up close like some other strikers because it's not like he has godlike tracking ability when he starts his offense. 6-4 Ein IMO.

In Ein's disfavor:

Ayane - By far his worst MU IMO. She does almost everything he does 5 times better. 6-4 or 7-3 it really doesn't matter to me. Better keepout, better offense, much better damage, better mobility, better ability to create whiff punish scenarios because of said mobility, better holds like damn is there anything Ein has that this character doesn't? Oh right. Bounds. His bound damage shits all over hers and that's about it. This one is a battle of patience and Ein has to be WAY more patient than Ayane.

Christie - If Ein had fast tracking mids and lows this would be even. Ein struggles in close range but he can turn the fight around with smart play mid - long range. Speed is honestly overrated in this game IMO since there are ways to deal with it but there's no solid way for Ein to deal with JAK in CQC. 6-4 Christie.

Helena - She is a nightmare for Ein in close range and at distance even though her spacing tools suck ass she can just go into BKO duck and avoid the majority of zoning / keepout attempts. Whiff punishing her is difficult because her strings serve as a protective barrier and most end with her in BKO. Since I have no true mids I can't hit her out of that and so I'm struggling to do my job while she's having a field day doing hers. BKO duck also completely laughs at most of my 2P frame traps making me commit to 2P more often than other strikes in CQC. 6-4 or 7-3 Helena.

Hayate - This dude is just well equipped to deal with Ein. Good mobility, long range attacks that bring him right into close range where Ein gets dominated by his speed and 8P+K since Ein sucks at tracking. Since he can negate Ein's spacing at almost any moment and is better than Ein close range it's natural that this is a disadvantage MU.
6-4 Hayate.

HItomi - I can be swayed to say this is even because sometimes I feel that it is and others I feel she has the advantage. Just from a toolset perspective though this should be in her favor. Punch parry negates my ideal frame traps in close range forcing me to use 6K and 2P more often. Ein lacks the crushes to completely capitalize on Hitomi's crushable strings when he's on defense so he's forced to block and fuzzy guard throw attempts or take a risk and try to get in between her string pressure with 3P.

At distance contrary to popular belief Hitomi actually has more range than Ein on some moves such as her 1K (She has more range on it but at tip range her 1K6P will never hit whereas Ein will almost always connect with 1K6P), 6H+K and 236P. There are more that slip my mind but these are the important ones because everyone likes to talk about how Ein is better than Hitomi at range at the expense of having a legitimate offense when he isn't that much better than her at range.

He has slightly better range on whiff punishment in 46P and better speed on 236P even though it's range is slightly shorter than hers. His keepout tools are better. He's also got a better mid and WAAAAYYYY better bounds. His damage is slightly higher than hers as well. That's everything he has over Hitomi. 6-4 or 5.5 -4.5 Hitomi IMO.

Lisa - This is an really annoying MU because Lisa can literally do whatever the hell she wants at some ranges and not have to worry about whiff punishment because she has OHs and strings that serve as a protective barrier such as the entirety of her 1PK string. In close range Ein really has to worry about getting crushed or taking 4H+K. Legit 4H+K blows up Ein's entire post 2P offense. It beats the highs due to crushing, beats his mid due to out damaging it and the speed tie and blows up the low for the same reasons. It's not even like he can punish it consistently either because his 66T is too slow for him to run up and do that. 6-4 Lisa.

Brad Wong - This MU smgdh. Brad simply just doesn't know what whiff punishment is. It's not impossible to do it to him but he would have to be doing something really silly and stupid at range to get whiff punished due to how his laydown negates ALL of my keepout and zoning / whiff punishment tools and like Lisa and Helena he has the strings that form a protective barrier. In close range all Brad legit has to do is use his evasive sidestep. This blows up all of my strings and it forces me to use H+K and 2H+K in close range since 4P won't cut it when it comes to tracking. 6-4 Brad.

 

[Brute]

I'll list the ones I know I won't cover (lack of experience vs at a good enough level):
Hayabusa,

If you want more Hayabusa experience, feel free to hit me up anytime.